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Stephen Poliakoff

 
  

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Tryphena Absent
12:18 / 16.01.06
At the moment BBC4 are showing a series of TV films written and directed by Stephen Poliakoff. This season also includes the BBC1 premiere of Friends and Crocodiles, shown yesterday and Gideon's Daughter, which previews in February.

So did anyone else watch F&C last night?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
12:27 / 16.01.06
yes.

enjoyed it.

even tho it was laughably ridiculous.

poly's obsessed with bigass parties in large gardens with stately homes in the background. always there, eh?

some naff gems,

from the '70s: 'get into computers before the boys do"
from the '80s: summed up by poliakoff by simply having the office environment switch from boxed-off rooms to open plan.
from the '90s: 'you were right about computers!'

the 'hanging about with autistic wasters' thing was equally daft/watchable.

seemed utterly pointless, this story.

really, really enjoyed it.

really really fancied the human resource lady with the fetishy black blouse. on screen for seconds only.
 
 
Smoothly
12:29 / 16.01.06
Yes. I thought it was pretty dreadful.
There was a good profile of Poliakoff on BBC4 directly before it in which he talks about the Millennium Dome as something which had all the trappings of being big and important and valuable, but that ultimately proved to be empty at its core. Funnily enough, that's pretty much exactly what I thought of Friends & Crocodiles. But then again, I'm such a fan of some of his other work, I'm willing to believe I missed something (maybe a whole layer of irony). Nina, what did you think? Crucially, what did you think it was about?
 
 
sleazenation
17:02 / 16.01.06
Didn't see F&C, but have it recorded...

Poliakoff stikes me as very much a writer bringing a stage sensibility to the small screen... - hense his love of stately homes: extravigant sets adaptably to a wide variety of dramas.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
17:33 / 16.01.06
I thought that Friends and Crocodiles was primarily about a relationship that changed over 16 years and wasn't dulled. It was about the ability to climb from a Secretary to someone with a strong position in a huge company over a short period of time, an ability that really manifested itself in the 80s. It was about the dangers and benefits of society during that time and underneath that ran the thread of politics, unemployment for some, great financial gain for others, the theme of storytelling, charting your progress (Paul is very against this, Lizzie is disgusted by the destruction of the story of her work).

Paul is a clever man who is trying to find a way to work because he finds it difficult to do so within corporate structures of any type. This is underlined by his change in living arrangement, he goes from life in a stately home to life in a school, indicating that he has found a way to work at the end. He is reliant on technology, he doesn't shun it as he might seem to but he is sensible about it. He is also the manifestation of the present. He is us in the future able to recognise the simplest ideas as obvious ones. This is why his role at times seems heavy handed because to play it any other way would have been foolish and would detract from his position as our voice.

Primarily I thought this was about the creation of our own families. The characters are all alone, you see parents once at Lizzie's wedding but really all of the characters are very much forming their own specific family environments. This is both the beginning and the conclusion of the piece and is emphasised as it becomes clear that Paul's point is not to destroy but keep in contact with the people who have edged away from him.

In a way a critique the entire drama is about the office environment because it stresses the idea of people being lumped together in a uniform line continually and rejects the notion of false order. Paul's ideas don't need to be uniform, Lizzie's are but they fail because the uniformity (at AET) fails. It is about corporate structure in the 80s and the slow disintegration of the intensity of that structure over the 90s.

from the '70s: 'get into computers before the boys do"
from the '80s: summed up by poliakoff by simply having the office environment switch from boxed-off rooms to open plan.
from the '90s: 'you were right about computers!'


Paul is the representation of a lot of things- vocal feminism and society in the 80s, technology as a means of effective work through isolation later on but he's not the protagonist at any time and to read the work through him is to read 1997 rather than the drama. I think a lot of people were confused by this but I'm unclear as to why as he was followed quite vaguely when compared to Lizzie who is our protagonist. In fact the opening, with her walking across his land, almost explicitly states that our focus is on this girl who becomes his secretary. Robert Lindsay's character explicitly states that this is the main character. What Paul says is almost irrelevant except as a social representation and within his relationship with Lizzie.

I thought it was far from pointless. It's one of few dramas that I've seen that doesn't treat the time period it covers as a melodrama. All of the main issues that surround the culture of the 1980s were represented as they are perceived today. I found it refreshing, interesting and subtly representative.

It was intensely layered. It was representative of the period, the relationships were incredibly important. The notion of isolation from society and the support of the idea of society was constant. Not once did he stress the morality of the characters, which I found very effective and he used the heavy handed windows into the future in a way that effectively contrasted current society with the peculiarities of the past. I thought this was very very good and I think Poliakoff's really back on form.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
18:52 / 16.01.06
thanks for sharing your considered thoughts nina.
 
 
Smoothly
23:13 / 16.01.06
Yeah, that's more like it.

I agree with you in parts, nina, but there are a few things there that make me think we were watching different things.

I'd be interested to hear more about the storytelling theme, because I didn't really pick up on that. Except there is that line, delivered with sonorous, 'This is a Theme' gravitas during the Virtual Reality pitch: "But people rather like to be told stories". Although it's Paul who says it.
If anything it's Paul who's got a boner for telling big stories. Lizzie sobs at the destruction of the colour-coded files because it's antithetical to Getting Things Done. Lizzie is a hack, isn't she?

I agree with you about the 'friends are the new family' thing. But purrrleeeease. We had that show 10 years before anyone brought Crocodiles into it.
Speaking of which, I didn't understand the crocodile metaphor. Is it that crocodiles are immune to the passing of time and from infection from wounds inflicted in their fights with one another? Is that supposed to be Paul? Lizzie? Both of their fortunes were tossed all over the place by the social and financial evolution of the the 80s and 90s, and seemed to have infected eachother profoundly. Just didn't really make sense to me. Maybe it was irony, I dunno.

I found Paul pretty puzzling all round really. It's such a copy & paste character he could only be a totem. I just feel a bit clued out as to what he represented. A minor thing, but am I missing something about the insightful brilliance of opening a chain of bookshops in the mid-90s? Was there a books and coffee boom at the end of the 20th century that I missed?

I think I might have misunderstood the whole thing.
 
 
Future Perfect
07:50 / 17.01.06
I really enjoyed this (but I do have to admit that I've not seen all that much Poliakoff before so F&C may well be light in comparrison to the rest of his work)

I thought it was about time and change really and specifically about the judgements we make about the moral value or 'rightness' of particular fundamental archetypes (represented by Paul and Lizzie - creativity and discipline).

It felt to me that both Paul and Lizzie were crocodiles - neither of them really change (because they're so abstracted for one thing) over the course of the piece. Instead, I think, Poliakoff shows us a couple of things.

Firstly, that it's the environment that allows each of those perspectives at various times to come to the ascendancy and feel appropriate. Early on it certainly felt to me that there was something really quite uncomfortable and objectionable about life in Paul's mansion. I don't think the garden is this idyllic paradise at all. At this point Lizzie seems like the one with the moral centre, trying to turn these fantastic pipe dreams into reality. But as the 80s and 90s progress, and as the working world becomes more managerial and uninspired, her discipline is in the ascendancy so she rises and, I think, that moral centre moves to Paul; creativity and freedom are missing in this new world.

Secondly, I don't think Poliakoff is trying to laud one over the other. I think he's making the point that when we understand the world we use these lenses and, in part, depending on the sorts of people we are, it's easy to to rally behind those perspectives as a banner that identifies what works/how to be a success. But ultimately that leaves us stuck in these cycles as one raches it's zenith, it's power collapses and the other comes to ascendancy.

The conclusion of F&P I think is really upbeat (and maybe a bit naive) as they look to the internet as a tool for helping them manage the tension between those opposing forces that, if in balance, have the real power to actually change things.

Or maybe not?
 
 
Smoothly
08:36 / 17.01.06
Hmm, I hadn’t really thought about it like that. If they are supposed to be distilled archetypes, that would explain why the characters are so two-dimensional and why they can rise and fall so precipitously, with so little explanation. And I suppose, with that reading in mind, it’s good to see that attraction of opposites played out as something other than a sexual dynamic.

I see what you mean about the crocodile thing too, that they don’t change in nature or behaviour, despite the changes in their environments/situations. That makes me wonder about some of the supporting characters though. The crusading teacher, for example. Does he change from AS Neillish liberal to New Labour box ticker, or is it a case of him consistently hopping on to fashionable bandwagons? And the artist ‘brothers’. There’s a line at the wedding when they explain their decision to leave the art world for the trading floor as a bid to bring their brand of anarchy to the city. At the time, I read that as a lame excuse for selling out, but maybe they were sincere – that to them they’d just moved from fleecing a once burgeoning art market to fleecing the new financial one.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
09:28 / 17.01.06
"And I suppose, with that reading in mind, it’s good to see that attraction of opposites played out as something other than a sexual dynamic."

but, no. it didn't really work, this realtionship without sex.

first off, they hardly spent any time working together, really, in the grand scheme of things.

Secondly, her bitch to the papers was the action of a spurned lover.

Thirdly, Poliakoff only noticed there was a husband in the way late on: check the awful scene when she cries her guts out to paul on the phone. she actually say, 'I mean, I love my husband. I really love him.(cut to shot of husband, supportive smile) And that's not the way i think about you. But I wake up with you in my mind, i wonder what you would think if....' etc.

Now Poliakoff shoehorned those words into Lizzie's mouth. We had no sense of her relationship with her husband. I simply didn't beleive it. Also, I'd say he was a tad too understanding to be a beleivable portrayal.

Look, lizzie, you DO love Paul. You're just too scared to go with him. simple as that. You're a tight arse, he isn't.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:47 / 17.01.06
yawn, Paul went to her wedding.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
09:50 / 17.01.06
yeah, i remember that bit too.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
09:54 / 17.01.06
and if you remember correctly (consider this italicized), the wedding was about paul and lizzie.

not lizzie and her invisible husbland (sic).

and nina, love yer long and short posting style.

but not your patronising twang. (patronising's in bold)
 
 
Smoothly
09:56 / 17.01.06
I didn’t perceive Lizzie as having any sexual attraction to Paul at all. And I took the phone call in front of her husband as evidence that she felt no tension or awkwardness about that at all. I’m warming to FP’s analysis on this. There’s a dialectic going on. They both recognise that great things could emerge from a synthesis of their difference, but the financial and social climates through which they move favour one then the other and so make a collaboration on an equal footing impossible (she cannot operate successfully in Paul’s unstructured world of Big Ideas, and later Paul founders in the disciplined, managerial milleu that allows Lizzie to thrive). That’s why they didn’t spend much time working together. She went to the papers because she was so incensed and offended by the waste and profligacy she saw (so antithetical to her values), not because he spurned her sexually. When did he spurn her?
 
 
Smoothly
09:57 / 17.01.06
You're just too scared to go with him. simple as that.

What, simple as you? (How's that for patronising?)
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
10:09 / 17.01.06
a bit crap really, smoothly. stick to being an arse instead.

that, you are good at.

and scuse me for reading between the lines regarding the bitch to the papers. I don't think she would have don't it solely for the reasons you believe.
 
 
Lysander Stark
10:13 / 17.01.06
In advance, I apologise for the length of this response...

I just need to get a little bad out of the way first, before the good: I found F&C a little too forced-- too allegorical to be character driven, too much character to be pure allegory, and not really occupying a happy middle ground. However, I also found it interesting and watchable, not least because, as I saw it, it tapped into one of my favourite, timeless themes-- the loss of ideals to a world of pragmatism. It was, to me, about the death of a certain romance in the world, just as Shakespeare's Richard II and some of his Roman plays are. Citizen Kane too, or Boogie Nights...

In this sense, I saw the fantastic, whimsical, decadent chaos of the early stages as something flawed but optimistic and useful. Whereas Paul appears to stay in touch with it to one extent or another, Lizzie actively destroys it and denies it. Her life path from there is in a large part an active denial of those beginnings, the past under Paul's influence a sort of strange benchmark or conscience against which she cannot fail to measure herself and against which, further and further down the line, she comes short, a reality that she is forced more and more to confront. Hence her obsession with the idea that Paul will criticise her, which never happens, and yet which she still insists upon in episode (as it were) after episode.

The wedding highlighted the extent to which this was true of the whole establishment-- the artists who claim still to be inciting revolt from within the system which I took (perhaps wrongly) to be a palpable lie in order again to avoid confrontation with the notion that they had sold out, as they again find themselves measured against Paul-- he is sort of the ghost of Banquo at the feast, seeing so many people whose lives were made great because of him and because of the fervour and romance that he espoused and channelled. He is a silent accusation making everyone feel uncomfortable, yet is in fact not accusing anyone, not causing trouble. His mere presence, that reminder of their origins and what they now perceive as their shameful past, is enough to make the people shift in their seats. Meanwhile, he is the crocodile, waiting out the storm, taking on this guise or that but remaining romantic to one extent or another, and remaining a constructive yet anarchic genius (with a fortunate investment in good bookshops).

What was interesting about F&C was that it was optimistic (unlike Shakespeare or Kane, but like Boogie Nights). The sell out periods of the 80s and 90s, the denial of roots and origins of so much success (and then the destructive results of that denial)-- all these are laid aside, like old grudges, by the bonfire at a school at the end, where all the old characters are getting back in touch with the wild energy and romance of those early days.

What I also liked was that Paul was not so much an idealist, although Lizzie uses him as a measure against which to judge herself in moral terms (which he has not particularly demonstrated either). Instead it is just a sense of liberated creativity, sometimes well channelled, sometimes not so well channelled, but always worthwhile (hence the beautiful parties).

I think that Lizzie changes too much to be a crocodile in the sense that those aspects of the programme explored, although I suppose she has some of the aggression and ambition that must be another aspect of the creature. Paul is the survivor, hardly changing (even in his hippy phase) and the solid, unmoveable creature against which all these subsequent ages are judged and yet from which they all had evolved, for better or worse. Maybe it is the hope of this final combination that would create a big, man-eating, survivor of a crocodile-- the final union of the beast's different aspects in the team of Lizzie and Paul.
 
 
Smoothly
10:44 / 17.01.06
Cheers yawn. You might be right, but what lines are you reading between? It’s quite possible I missed something, but I just don’t remember anything that would suggest that (a) she was attracted to him sexually, or (b) that he spurned her in that capacity. Do you think that there must have been some spurning because that’s the only reason that a woman might seek to expose a man in the papers, or because of some evidence in the text?


and remaining a constructive yet anarchic genius

Paul’s genius credentials are another thing I wondered about. We know he made his money in property “without having to think about it too much”, and we know his bookshop venture later was a success to some extent (but like I say above, I’m not sure how much). And we see during his Gatsby period that he has great plans for strange looking wind power skyscrapers and suchlike. But I couldn’t work out if this was supposed to be evidence of genuine genius or the puffed up folly of a young man with money to burn. That’s why the bookshop thing puzzled me. Was it a reaction to the neophilia that was gripping everyone else at the firm, or a genuine investment masterstroke?
 
 
Lysander Stark
11:00 / 17.01.06
Regarding his genius-- both, I thought-- the bookshops were a solution that had forsight but was grounded in realism and humanism and that also illustrated the intense and increasing hollowness of the world around him. Hence also the hallucinated bit where Lizzie saw him saying that people will always have to clean their houses while the company was buying into the internet bubble.

I agree that his genius was little illustrated; indeed, Paul receded as a real character in the programme, became instead a sort of shadow aspect of Lizzie, defining her more than he ever defined himself, allowing people to read motives etc into him that he quite simply did not appear to have or at least to concern himself with.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
11:10 / 17.01.06
The bookshop thing was a reference to Borders, perhaps? To a certain extent (and I did fall asleep halfway through this, so I'm really not best-positioned to comment,) it seemed to be flagged up as a determinedly 'old-fashioned' business idea, in contrast to the techie stuff, but on the other hand, I *think* that the Borders chain was something of a runaway success story in the Nineties, if perhaps more noticeably in the States than over here.
 
 
Smoothly
11:14 / 17.01.06
That's exactly what I wondered, Alex. Just, not being much of a reader, I had no idea how much of a success (or how recent a success) Borders was.
 
 
Future Perfect
11:32 / 17.01.06
I'm with Smoothly on the romance thing... I think it's really important to the piece that there's nothing sexual going on between Paul and Lizzie. I actually think that Lizzie's husband doesn't feature all that much because (and I know I'm re-iterating here a bit) F&C's not really about those sorts of relationships (or relationships between people at all).

It's about the relationship and tension between ideas that have shaped the UK in last 25 years.

I think even if you do treat them as real characters it's also perfectly possible for men and women to have precisely those sorts of tensions that can be incredibly fruitful 'at work' without there being anything else going on? It's like that with my boss most of the time! And they only ever clash, bicker, 'flirt' around those core persepctives of immediate, open ended creativity and structured, thorough discipline, don't you think?

On the genius thing, they both are aren't they? Paul's a genius from Lizzie's perspective because the production of all these wonderful, vibrant ideas to change the world is something, archetypically (?), she doesn't see that she can do. And, I think, vice versa.

I really don't think Poliakoff's saying one's value set is better than the other but precisely the opposite?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
11:35 / 17.01.06
borders, yeah in the states.

but this was a film about britain.

so, ottakers at best, but it's hardly the best example to use to show paul's incredible insight. it's boss is something of a business media darling.

and yeah, i think they were in love. In fact the internet comment at the end, about how email would be the best way for them to be together, could be interpreted as a wry comment on the rise of virtual romance and how so many people, apparently happily in a relationship, seek further mental/erotic stimulus with the aid of digital telecoms.

everything in Lizzies life seemed to take second place to her feelings for Paul. I'd say that was a reflection of her longing and love for him. that's why I thought she was in love with him, smoothly.
 
 
Spaniel
12:13 / 17.01.06
I don't think there is anything in the text that is intended to convey sexual attraction between the two characters. As has already been pointed out, the scene where Lizzie is on the phone to Paul in front of her husband was pretty clearly an attempt to make this explicit. But, whilst I disagree with you, Yawn, I do see where you're coming from in that I have witnessed a very similar working relationship up close, which didn't manage to remain entirely platonic*. Lizzie and Paul reminded me strongly of that relationship, what it was like to be around, and how all consuming it could be.

Although I agree with much of what Nina has said, watching F&C was a strange, nostalgic and powerful experience for me, but I mainly for very personal reasons.

*I should stress that I am not talking about myself here
 
 
Smoothly
12:41 / 17.01.06
Yes, I agree that the viewer is prompted to expect a romantic relationship between the protagonists, largely by the conventions of TV drama, the settings, the casting etc, as well as – like Boboss says – our own experiences of close working relationships. But I thought that Poliakoff went out of his way to establish that this was not the case (and that the tensions between them were of a different sort). eg. Lizzie’s unambiguous response to seeing Paul in a sexual context, the absence of any approach from Lizzie or any spurning from Paul, the frank conversation about her obsession with Paul in the presence of her husband…
Yawn describes that scene as awful, and I agree that it clunks, but I think those words were ‘shoehorned into her mouth’ for a reason, that being to make it absolutely clear to the viewer that this is *not* a sex thing.
I can’t disprove Yawn’s assessment that Poliakoff was trying to do the opposite, and doing it badly. But it seems like a difficult reading to justify given what’s in the text (and notable by its absence from it) coupled with Poliakoff’s track record.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
15:16 / 17.01.06
I think the point I'm trying to make here - but was distracted - is that despite poly telling us that there was no sexual tension between the two, and on face value that seems to be correct, I just didn't buy it. and that's because of the script, rather than the acting.

And I felt there was enough evidence within the events portrayed - and the way they were portrayed - to suggest that lizzie was in love with Paul (tho, he not with her) but was unable to admit to it (hence all the duff justification on the phone (with hubby present) and - (and lets face it, there were quite a few of these) - the huffy storm offs she did when unhappy with his behaviour.

See Lizzie is defined by her work. I'd say she loves her work more than her family. she has no kids, she seems absent from her husband. Her parents figured only as wedding guests. So work is her thing.

But work is Paul.

If you agree with that, it allows you to believe that her bleat to the tabloids was the action of a 'spurned' lover while also giving space to the other reason - that she felt her work had been betrayed.

Now, I'd add, if poly didn't intend to make a wry comment on cyber love with his suggestion that they'd make a great email team, then he's really quite naff.

I mean, we all know email and the net great facilitator and community builder, don’t we barbelithians? Surely we don’t need poly to tell us that.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:24 / 17.01.06
Don't you recognise any other types of close relationship with people of the opposite sex?
 
 
Smoothly
15:41 / 17.01.06
Or that, as a collaborative tool, there is more to the net than milks the eye?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
08:55 / 18.01.06
nina - get over your own prejudices before wrongly identifying them in others. I think I've explained my reasons for interpreting F&C in the way I do. Really, you should appreciate debate, rather than obsessing over deviations from your viewpoint.

Smoothly: I'm lucky enough to have delivered a lot of projects which have been developed collaboratively over the web. sometimes with fellow barbelites. I'm well aware of the possibilities. but thanks for checking.
 
 
Spaniel
09:18 / 18.01.06
But do your think your interpretation is the intended interpretation?

Lizzie is defined by her work, you say? Well, I can see how you would think that, and I can see how from there we are a short hop skip and a jump away from having Paul be Lizzie's love interest, but you are aware that the film has chosen to show us a very limited view of the character? In that we only ever get to see her at work, we don't know about any of the other defining things in her life, and I see nothing in the script to suggest that there could be no other defining things, just that the script was never going to go there, because - necessarily - it had a focus. You say that work is central to Lizzie's life, but if the character was given a little more flesh on those dramatic bones - taken into other context, etc... - it would seem at least plausible that work is merely one important aspect of her being. I can imagine a parallel narrative, for example, where Lizzie and her husband work through their issues pertaining to her work and her relationship with Paul, and her relationship with her husband comes out on top. The two conceptions of the character are not mutually exclusive, IMO.

Also, surely you'd concede that it's possible to have someone be the embodiment of the most important aspect of your life, and not necessarily find them sexually attractive?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:27 / 18.01.06
Yawn, your response to me was disproportionate. I asked you a brief and unemotive question but I am apparently prejudiced and obsessive? I rather think you had better apologise to me.
 
 
Lysander Stark
10:23 / 18.01.06
I liked seeing their relationship develop, or not, throughout the programme because it was plagued by ambiguities. It was impossible to categorise. The tension, the love (as it were) between the pair of them conforms to no given relationship format, and this strangeness, this hovering-on-the-borders of something lent the film much of its weight. The relationship is in part like brother and sister, as Paul says in his commune phase. It is not about sex, but it is precisely the tension and expectation of what a relationship is and can be that causes the friction that Paul now intends to remove by working by telephone or even by email. At the end, when he makes his offer, he is not solely relying on the internet but instead mentions the phone first, but says to Lizzie that they need not speak to each other if they do not want to. Ultimately, it is a marriage of minds that he is advocating, and it is a love of minds that they share, and their bodies just annoyingly get in the way and confuse Lizzie a little. I think. But it is this strange ambiguous form of work relationship that leads to some of the more destructive or ill-judged of office romances...
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
13:19 / 18.01.06
nina: get a grip - before you embarrass yourself further.

boboss - a reasonable post with which I can find some common ground.

As for conceding, no need: I readily accept that a life-defining relationship (or infatuation) need not be sexual.

but

My feelings are that poly did not pull off what he intended to - this supposed long term study of working relationships between two people who were supposedly not into eachother’s bits.

lizzie and her life: We saw a lot of paul and his life outside work (he had children for instance - if he found the time, surely Liz could find the time for extra curricular functionings. but no - we just got the office. why DID we see so much of Paul’s life outside work? Is it because his life was his work? Where as Lizzie’s work was her life?)) so I took that to mean poly had, whether deliberately or not, defined this woman as a person subsumed by her work.

As already stated, I enjoyed this play. a lot.

but I found some of it unintentionally funny ( I mean, I love my husband etc . . .and Smoothly, it WAS shoehorned. Perhaps if poly had been more skilful in outlining his themes and intentions, then we wouldn’t have needed such a duff piece of writing to make clear those intentions) while I found other parts rather pat (the detailing of office life as the decades rolled by and the silly conclusion regarding the internet for example).

just remembered something tho: didn't paul make a come-on to lizzie early on and she stated, 'for gods sake, you seem to think everyone finds you irresistibly attractive but I don't . . . "

I think the upshot of that, is that paul maybe felt she did have sexual interest in him. His invitation to 'get naked' in the pool may be further evidence of this. He detected something . . . or maybe he’s just a big sleaze.

Finally, boboss, your musings regarding how you could imagine the play being played out in another way such that the hubby proves to be the centre of Lizzie’s life is irrelevant because it didn’t happen and will not happen - poly didn't want to tell such a tale. surely you concede?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
13:23 / 18.01.06
I should add that I detected (I think, maybe retro-fitting) a glimmer of disappointment when Paul suggested to Lizzie that their future was virtual.

I think his physical presence is important to her.

lysander: great post, plenty of food for thought.
 
 
Spaniel
13:41 / 18.01.06
I think you're misunderstanding me, which would be understandable because I'm really struggling to articulate my position.

My point is that nothing in F&C would preclude the possibility for such a parallel narrative. I think F&C leaves room for *work* to be one defining feature of Lizzie's life amongst many. You seem to think it doesn't, and that work is central, hence what you see as Lizzie's inevitable attraction to Paul.

This isn't a case of me creating a fantasy life for Lizzie, or looking without the text for answers, rather I'm trying to interogate what the text makes possible in terms of Lizzie's character. Think of it like writing slash.
 
  

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