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Patriotism, Jingoism, or just plain Idiocy? 'British Day' advocated by Brown...

09:11 / 14.01.06

This lLink and this one will give you everything you need.

I'm not convinced that I'm the only person to be slightly disturbed by this, even though it is still a mere suggestion. I suppose the question really comes in two halves: (1) Whether or not we need to emulate our trans-Atlantic cousins and have a national day, and, (2) Whether or not Rememberance Sunday should be left as a time for reflection on the countless people who fought - and many of whom died - in the First World War.

On the first point, I'm not sure we either need such a celebration, or really have any clearly defined idea as to what it is we'd be celebrating if the day were introduced. For a start, we're such a mongrel race in the UK that I'm not convinced this won't - or perhaps hasn't already - result in cries of 'prejudice!' and 'racism!' from certain quarters of the country. There is also the obvious suggestion that if you absolutely must introduce such a day as a celebration, why not just drop the pretence of 'British Day' and simply use St. George's Day? Ireland, Scotland and Wales already actively celebrate their national saints day as a form of national identity, and I'm reasonably certain they won't take kindly to having 'British Day' thrust upon them.
And finally, on a less serious afternote of course, we don't really require such a day because - as Michael Flanders so aptly noted - we already know we're great, and we don't need to let off fireworks and drink excessively to tell ourselves so.

But it is perhaps the second point I personally find distasteful. A great many people don't bother with Rememberance Sunday now, but it's no less important for that, and the suggestion that the day should be corrupted into a celebration of all things 'British' seems utterly horrific.

So where do you stand? Are we about to herald an age of a Union Jack on every lawn?

All Acting Regiment

11:46 / 14.01.06

I'm going to try and work through this sentence:

He will say the centre and the left have failed to understand that the values on which Britishness is based - fairness, liberty and responsibility - owe more to progressive ideas than to rightwing ones.

In what way is "Britishness" based on anything other than being British? What is "Britishness", anyway? Fluffy, feelgood language. In terms of economic reality- in other words, the hard, monetary reality, the actual factors that result in Britain, as a concept, exisiting, Britain is based on slavery and colonialism, to a fairly large extent.

I cannot equate liberty with patriotism. Is it at all possible to do so?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

14:12 / 14.01.06

I have to say, I fucking hate the idea. I would imagine (well, hope, really) it's just a ploy to try (unsuccessfully, I'll venture to predict) to get the Mail and Express to shut the fuck up about the government's eeevil PC-gone-mad anti-British agenda.

Anyone else see it becoming a flashpoint for far-right rallies and the like, or am I being overly apocalyptic?

15:19 / 14.01.06

Brown needs to build a relationship with Middle England and the Daily Mail readership somehow. I think we will see further moves from him, calculated to endear him to an electorate who are not his natural allies. He probably expects the Left and Left of Centre to welcome his supplanting of Blair but knows he has to put on different clothes to appeal beyond that constituency. That's the only way I can make any sense of him wrapping himself in the flag.

17:32 / 14.01.06

Possibly worth remembering that Blair's first victory coincided with/helped to manufacture all that 'Cool Britannia' bullshit. Brown presumably trying to create a similar vehicle for himself based on that experience.

18:17 / 14.01.06

Utterly ridiculous on a number of levels, but I would echo what Tez said about replacing Remembrance Day. I would have thought that creating a day for celebrating your nation would prove that you haven't learned the lessons taught by futile wars, and are thus in dire need of a day of remembrance.

18:33 / 14.01.06

I don't know what I think about this stuff to be honest. I'm really confused by it. Certainly I think it's about time that the British stopped being ashamed of their culture and found a new, mature way to integrate in the bad things we've done in the past and the horrors of imperialism into a more coherent and positive identity. I think there's a lot to be said as well for reclaiming a sense of national pride from the right wing ideologues who have occupied the territory. I was always quite interested in the Cool Britannia stuff, however cringeworthy it got occasionally. I don't like the name 'British Day' at all, and - like others - I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea of reworking Remembrance Sunday, but I understand the drive and the aspiration, even if the specifics worry me a little.

Regrettable Juvenilia

22:25 / 14.01.06

Certainly I think it's about time that the British stopped being ashamed of their culture and found a new, mature way to integrate in the bad things we've done in the past and the horrors of imperialism into a more coherent and positive identity.

This is a very worrying statement, Tom. Gordon Brown thinks that Britain should stop "apologising" for the British Empire and for colonialism, and he first began to push this nationalist, racist, historically revisionist agenda almost exactly a year ago, and had the gall to do it while in Africa (see 'It's time to celebrate the Empire, says Brown', Daily Mail, 15th January 2005 - apologies for linking to the Daily Mail). As Seumas Milne wrote shortly thereafter:

But even more bizarre is the implication that Britain is forever apologising for the empire or the crimes committed under it. Nothing could be further from the truth. There have been no apologies. Official Britain put decolonisation behind it in a state of blissful amnesia, without the slightest effort to come to terms with what had taken place. Indeed, there has barely been a murmur of public reaction to Brown's extraordinary comments and what public criticism there is of the British imperial record has increasingly been drowned out by tub-thumping imperial apologias.

It strikes me that "it's about time that the British stopped being ashamed of their culture" is misleading in much the same way.

Equally, I have no interest in "reclaiming a sense of national pride from the right wing ideologues who have occupied the territory". I'm more interested in the very opposite, really - how do those of us who are aware of the current idolatry of the nation state, the new forms of racism it has engendered and allowed, and the way in which this has become an unquestioned given in mainstream politics even amongst those who self-identify as left-wing or liberal, reclaim progressive politics from the ever-encroaching taint of nationalism?

22:29 / 14.01.06

Pretty much on the money, there, Xoc, I think, and I venture to add that as the parties get more and more similar in policy, which they show every sign of doing unless the Lib Dems get their act together, we will see more and more chasing of this type of issue - just like in the US. When differences in your economic and foreign policy are merely based on which special interest groups you are influenced by, none of which matter to voters, how else are you going to differentiate yourself from the other side, forge a voter base and maintain the idea of choice? Hence "respect", "Britishness" et al.

Regrettable Juvenilia

22:31 / 14.01.06

More generally, it's not surprising that Remembrance Day has to go, given the current climate of mainstream British politics (i.e., marching in step with the US neo-conservatives). A day of mourning for those who died during a war accepts that people die during wars, and would seem to suggest that those deaths were a bad thing - and possibly by implication war itself, perish the thought. We can't have that - there must always be new wars to fight, and they must be justified as being in the name of our wonderful values. Nor can we have anyone acknowledging that the First World War might have been anything other than a clash between our enlightened British values and, er, some other, nastier values. Remembrance Day must be rebranded to stop it being so off-message: this is the New Labour way, which I pessimistically but confidently predict is already the New Conservative way and will shortly become the New Liberal Democrat way also.

Tryphena Absent

23:08 / 14.01.06

I think it's about time that the British stopped being ashamed of their culture and found a new, mature way to integrate in the bad things we've done in the past and the horrors of imperialism into a more coherent and positive identity.

There are a number of questions that arise from this statement. The most obvious is why do you think it's time but I think that's the easy question, the one that is always asked and the one that gives everyone making this statement an easy way out. It's not the real response because the real response is this: how is this perceived shame asserting itself in our culture?

In this thread the cenotaph ceremony is being vaguely referred to. During that ceremony, which I watch every year from the comfort of my sofa, representatives of the commonwealth and colonial armies that fought in the world wars lay wreaths at the base of the monument. It is in a way a proud moment, a recognition of the contribution of imperialism to the defeat of facism as well as the mourning of the dead. It seems to me a mature and institutional integration of past imperialism, a recognition of the moment when our colonies put effort into protecting us despite our invasion of their homes. Remembrance Sunday is something to be distinctly proud of, united in mourning, recognition of the past, it's certainly enough for me.

Tryphena Absent

23:42 / 14.01.06

In addition I would like to say this. One of the most profoundly enlightening and affecting experiences of my life was being taken on two trips to the battlefields of the first and second world wars. I watch the cenotaph ceremony every year because I feel that Remembrance Sunday is a proper and respectful recognition of the number of bodies that were never recovered, the number of people who died protecting Europe from an overwhelming invasion. Remembrance Sunday does more than that, it recognises all of the people who still die in horrific circumstances and it is an example of integration because it recognises all of the troops who fought as British rather than those who simply were British. Every year it moves me, it moves me just to think about it. It reminds us that the world is bigger than us as individuals, it means more than St. Patricks Day or any national day ever could because it is about something that happens to every single creature on this planet. I am proud of Remembrance Sunday and it is the only thing that makes me feel truly patriotic because it is a recognition of the horrors of war in a country that has a past characterised by war.

Remembrance Sunday is about sacrifice, regret, humanity and care. It is about caring for people who die horribly or are personally effected by war and it is the most important public ceremony that this country has. Gordon Brown will blight that over my body, in prison having viciously attacked him on the street. This is a dreadful idea, it is disgraceful and it lacks the meaning of the event that he would surpass. Gordon Brown should shut up.

05:18 / 15.01.06

Not much to add to what's already been said here, with regard to the whole thing being an at best strange, and at worst fairly objectionable idea - as is increasingly the case with Nu Labour, they seem, with this, to be identifying, and then at least talking about 'actioning' issues that nobody anywhere actually cares about. If there's a mood in the UK today, in our hearts, minds, or whatever other part of our collective anatomy in which it might reside, that our 'Britishness' isn't being suitably celebrated, I can't say I've seen much evidence of it myself.

That said though, if gruff old Gordon wanted to introduce a new bank holiday during which we could all celebrate our 'Britishness' by going abroad for the weekend or getting wrecked in the pub, I, for one, would not stand in his way.

Not that he'll ever do this of course, and hence the appeal of Remembrance Sunday as the proposed new 'Britishness' day - everyone would still have to be at their place of business at Nine the next morning, whatever the date. He's really not to be trusted at all, Gordon Brown, at least not by fun-loving types such as hang about here WHEN THEY SHOULD BE DOING SOME WORK. History, I fear (though I do hope this never happens,) may prove me right if Brown ever gets into Number Ten. If nothing else (and there really isn't much,) Tony Blair does seem to like going to parties as much as he does starting wars. Brown, on the other hand... well you can see it in his eyes - to be a narcissist and a puritan is never politically a good combination.

12:35 / 15.01.06

Nina: how is this perceived shame asserting itself in our culture?

Yes, I'd like to hear about that as well. My perception of Britain as a whole doesn't involve the population having shame - there are a few problems with "Britishness", given that we also have internal nationalities and there has historically been a link between Britishness and Englishness, but that hasn't killed it. I see the odd person raising criticisms of British actions past and present, and sometimes that is expressed with the phrase "makes me ashamed to be British", but I hear it just as much if not more from those of other nationalities (particularly Americans) and what's more, in practice I find people will defend aspects of their culture that they don't disapprove of even if they profess general shame. Just because I say bad things about the Amritsar Massacre doesn't mean I'm going to take it if somebody starts slagging off going to the pub on a Sunday to read the papers.

As a seperate point, the idea that we should imitate the US in displays of nationalism is just wrong on so many levels. The US has a particular history of these celebrations and displays - there was an interesting program on Radio 4 putting forward the theory that they were originally secular replacements for the sort of religious festivals and icons that the early Puritans disapproved of, which has some merit I think, but either way, it's not typical, particularly when it comes to, say, flags. Also it's inherently ridiculous to say "look at how country X celebrates their identity, why don't we do something like that?" How about "because we're not country X"? Interesting as a sociological question perhaps, but as an argument for change?

10:39 / 16.01.06

Good points Fridge. The 'shame of our culture' comes from those PC left-wing do gooders that want to ban xmas in favour of Eid and won't back our boys in the Gulf. Y'know the sort that the Daily Mail very kindly keep tabs on.

I thought we already had a 'British day' like this: Last Night of the fucking Proms.

10:40 / 16.01.06

Or as I initially typoed:

Last Night of the Fucking Poms

.. For you Aussies out there.....

12:07 / 16.01.06

Some rambling thoughts....

There is nothing wrong with celebrating your country and the good things it may have done for the world. On the other hand, to celebrate the good things at the expense of forgetting the bad things your country has done is really inexcusable. Yes Britain could do with more social cohesion and obviously the introduction of a national day is seen as a way of helping this along. But Britain is multicultural and diverse and just because you live here it does not follow that you should identify as British. Obeying the laws and respecting the rights of others are more virtuous. If anything, I see myself as a citizen of planet earth and although other people are different to me, I'm no better than them. Why should I identify as one thing that seperates me from the majority just because of where I live?