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Dhalgren- Samuel R Delany

 
  

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STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:03 / 10.01.06
Finally finished this this morning, after three abortive attempts over the past five years and a prolonged period of trying not to get to the end...

...and my golly, what a book. From its wonderful depiction of the something-ravaged city of Bellona, to its tapestry of shifting moralities and race & gender relations- there'd also be an argument for describing it as a landmark of science fiction dealing with sexuality, were it not for the fact that that doesn't even come close to being all the book's about- to its experiments with style and form, it really is a book to get lost in.

The edition I have (Vintage Books 1996) has a wonderful introduction by William Gibson, as well, in which he describes it as "a prose-city, a labyrinth, a vast construct the reader learns to enter by any one of a multiplicity of doors", and relates his first love of the book to memories of the sixties countrculture which, to a large extent, informs it. He also admits "I have never understood it".

I'm fairly sure I haven't, either, but it just makes me want to go back and try again. Is it a meditation on the 60s? on sexuality? on the creative process? on the nature of violence? on morality? on celebrity? on civilisation? on mental health? Whichever, it's a cracking read, once you get into it.

SPOILERS, KINDA








Burning particularly brightly in my memory are

-the sequence with the Richards' doomed-to-tragedy attempt to move to a new flat- as even Kid himself remarks, it's hard to tell whether Mrs Richards' constant state of denial is pathetic or heroic, but either way I found it quite upsetting "watching" her trying to maintain a nice, safe, middle-class normality in the midst of a situation that is anything but.

-the party at Calkins' house, where Kid receives the first negative criticism of his poetry and has that wonderfuil conversation with the astronaut Kamp, as well as all the wonderful stuff about the potentially-awkward introduction of the whole Scorpion nest into what passes for polite society (who is treating them as amusing freaks, who as human beings, and why?)

-Not a particular sequence, as such, but the whole Kid/Denny/Lanya relationship. How transgressive is it, exactly, in the new world of Bellona? Who is exploting who, if anyone? What do they actually feel for, rather than do with, each other?

-Kid's eventual therapy session with Madame Brown, with her tantalising story of the man in the hospital with the damaged hands...


END SORTA SPOILERS





There's so much more to this book than I feel I've even noticed on one reading. An absolute classic, if ever there was one. I'm kind of leaning towards Lilly Nowhere's assessment that it's the greatest book ever written, but that could just be because I've only just finished it. Suffice it to say, I'll find out next time (and there will be a next time).

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? I'd imagine it to be eminently discussable...
 
 
buttergun
16:07 / 10.01.06
You've got me thinking. I bought a used copy of the US mass market paperback years ago for cheap, but still haven't read it. I do know Delany considers his book on par with Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow; in fact, Delany claims that Dhalgren has aged better. That interests me, because I don't consider GR "aged" at all.

Tell the truth, I'd rather get around to finally reading John Brunner's Stand on Zanzibar...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:09 / 10.01.06
Read Dhalgren, man. It's one of those books I can feel running around in my head doing stuff after I've closed it. (Like Gravity's Rainbow, in fact!)
 
 
This Sunday
04:37 / 14.01.06
'Dhalgren' seems to operate in a way that the details, the facts and events and relavence, seems to change with every successive (re)reading. That refractive-loop business Sam Delaney talked about is definitely there. Still a very practical map of (post)modern living, too. With extraneous moons and content lazy relationships of all kinds, unlike the very intense or boring types we're apparently all supposed to experience, day in, day out.
 
 
matthew.
02:32 / 26.01.06
So I am about halfway through my copy, the cover of which is a gorgeous painting of a bloated, throbbing, enraged and red sun looming over skyskrapers while three indistinct people stare up at the sky. Beautiful cover art. Okay, on to business...

First impression: hard to start. Very kaleidoscopic in the beginning, unsure of what is happening. As soon as the narrative starts, I find myself teased by the inherent mysteries offered by the characters and the city. Then, I find myself teased by the implications of the characters' relationships. I start thinking in allegorical terms. Kid(d)'s notebook features the very same prose I'm reading, a layer of creation in desolation and destruction, and paradoxically, creation. So far, this book feels like a severe meditation on the act of creation: there is a whole section after Bobby dies, where Kid(d) spends a long time on one phrase describing Bobby's corpse. He crosses it out and changes it to create a different stress, a different tone. It seemed to be rather summarizing for me.

Can I go on record and say that this book turns me on? Literally I will read this on the bus and get an erection. I am aware that Delany's more recent prose has been erotic (pornographic, maybe) in nature, but I didn't think it would be so... beautiful in its eroticism. As much as this novel is titillating me, I am often struck by the perfection of Delany's sentences and phrases. There's only so many way you can tell me he fucked hir, but Delany makes it seem so effortless.

(At University, I am currently taking an entire course devoted to Ulysses, and I'm finding quite a few similarities in Joyce's and Delany's prose style. I'd like to say that Dhalgren is post-modernist, but I'm inclined to say it's distinctly modernist in its effort to be impressionist, as opposed to po-mo's expressionism. But, I'm only halfway. These are just impressions of the novel...)
 
 
matthew.
02:38 / 26.01.06
Also, this thought JUST came to me: I'm now toying with the idea that Kid(d) is Bellona. Or is the representation of Bellona. They both have a very sketchy past (we know not how Bellona came to its current state)(we have few clues to Kid(d)'s true life, merely snippets). They both have somewhat unsettling tendencies: necrophilia (Bobby's death)(as if the city enjoyed taking Bobby's life, the "windows conspiring"), very ambiguous allegiances (is Bellona even part of the US? The US makes little mention of Bellona), very ambiguous sexuality (Bellona seems incestuous with its people and their lives...)
As I posted above, I'm only halfway, so pardon me if I'm completely off the mark. This is just a little intellectual sandbox playing for me.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:52 / 26.01.06
Keep going, and keep up the commentary!
I'll pitch back in when you've finished, as I don't want to give you too many spoilers.

I'm already tempted to read it again...
 
 
Trebor
15:32 / 27.01.06
I read this awhile ago and was utterly fascinated from the first page, and synchronistically had been considering a reread just recently.

I still don't really know whats going on, there seem to be so many tangents all with their own meaning and implications, and the closer you get towards any single truth or interpretation is seems to explode and fragment into a million meaningless meanings.

I did find this article interesting, but be warned that it does contain spoilers.
 
 
m
17:33 / 27.01.06
I read Dhalgren several years ago, and still like to pick it up and just turn to some random page and read for a while. I can't remember though, is the title ever explained in the book at all? I guess there will need to be a spolier notification for the folks that're still reading.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:16 / 27.01.06
is the title ever explained in the book at all?


SPOILER ALERT!!!













Kind of... William Dhalgren is one of the names on the list Kidd finds right near the beginning of the book- the word "Dhalgren" appears in a dream he has towards the end, and it's very, very strongly hinted that this is the name of the reporter "Bill" who interviews him at Calkins' party.










END SPOILERS
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:27 / 27.01.06
That's a pretty neat article, too... I like the implication that






SPOILER ALERT AGAIN









the doomed nature of any attempt to impose coherent meaning on the narrative is entirely the point.....











END SPOILER



I think that's definitely part of it... but I think there's a lot more going on as well.
 
 
Trebor
15:12 / 28.01.06
...like artichokes

hmm, discussing the book seems fraught with oportunities to spoil it for others, so I'll just leave a couple more links to an autobiography of the author written under a pen name and an experimental radio play written and performed by Chip.
 
 
matthew.
21:51 / 30.01.06
(this post is written when the reader of dhalgren is at 500 pages) (no spoilers, therefore, and also, this reader hasn't read the three above posts which contain spoilers)

The scorpions: metaphor for law enforcement. The scorpions are the illusion of law enforcement. They are just scary shapes, simulacrum of scary animals. They hide behind the illusion of being scorpion/police. Delany is possibly saying that all enforcement of arbitrary rules and laws are simply useless because that enforcement is arbitrary. Look how the scorpions get their batteries: stealing, looting, etc. Even their means of enforcement is an illusion.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:30 / 31.01.06
I'd go a step further and say they're also the illusion of criminality.

I'm really trying not to comment until you've finished it, but I think the above contains sod all in the way of spoilers, so you should be okay with that!
 
 
zardoz
10:40 / 03.02.06
I have to admit not finishing Dhalgren, but it's on my list of Unfinished Books I Need to Pick Up Again. Very interesting stylistically, to say the least.

To me, though, the Ulysses of SF is probably Gene Wolfe's New Sun/Long Sun series, of which (I also have to admit) I have only completed 5 of the 9 books. Incredibly dense and detailed writing, and obtuse and challenging along the same lines as Dhalgren.
 
 
matthew.
04:19 / 10.03.06
Well. I'm done. Whew. It's late at night for me right now, so I will return in the morning and post some thoughts. I stuck a piece of paper in the book while I carted it around to jot down some thoughts and some page numbers....

First of all, I'd like to say that I am not surprised at all by how it "turned out", that is to say that I didn't expect any answers. Any attempt to put meaning into dhalgren fails because the novel is about disconnection between ideas and responses. At least I think.... Will go into this more.

Dollar. At first I thought Dollar was an allegory for white America. He calls everybody n-word. He gets into meaningless fights and tussles. He seemed to be the clued-out stereotype of the sketchy white American. But then, the more I thought about it, the more I think that attempts to pin meaning onto these symbols and allegories are futile. There is no name. There is no meaning. The city has drifted away from any system of symbols. The city has become disengaged from allegory and metaphor. It is simply the poetic process taken to the nth degree.

Will return tomorrow. You're right, Stoatie, this book does run around in my head.
 
 
matthew.
04:25 / 10.03.06
And the title. Here's my thoughts before I forget.

The second time the word "dhalgren" shows up is after Kid has taken part in a gangbang. He sits on the toilet and shits and keeps repeating the sound "gren" and "dal" over and over: Grendel, as in the monster feared by all save Beowolf. From Wikipedia: "The nature of Grendel's identity is something of a conundrum." Oh, look; a clue.

"Dhalgren" (the sound) is the inversion of an unknown. Not the opposite of an unknown, but the inversion of the symbol of the unknown. It's not a monster. It's not a city. It's not a black, it's not a white. It's not anything. It's like Kid's hands: they're dirty and bitten, but Kid never bites his nails. Just another symbol becoming unstuck from our morphological system of symbols. Jung would have a tough time with Dhalgren the novel, that's for sure.
 
 
Leidan
02:49 / 25.04.06
*** full of spoilers ***

Just finished... a very good and beautiful book; thanks for recommending it... but I think in contrary to alot of comments which attempt to find allegories or 'meanings' or metaphors in it, it contains a great deal of rationality if you look at it in a different way, as a broad exploration/explanation of certain states and situations in people and society; kid enters into hippy life, bourgeois life, bar life, gay culture, gang life, the social elite, the literary world... there's no overarching 'conclusions' about these things, but each is 'resolved', each is 'explained' very well - i.e. the internal rationality of the real people involved in all these situations and states is got at from the inside, very effectively and truly.

One of the most daring and important things I think the book does is the George/June rape/non-rape thing - it's certainly an archetype, a powerful archetype (look at the interracial section on literotica for instance) - and its exploration is done here really well, fairly, and imaginatively.

*** spoilers! ***
 
 
matthew.
02:59 / 25.04.06
You know what would be nice? If the Stoats came back and discussed in his own thread.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:10 / 25.04.06
Sorry... I was thinking that very thing yesterday. Putting something together now, hopefully should be up in the next day or so.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:35 / 26.04.06
You know, I'm actually finding it very hard to write about... it kind of defies analysis.

In part I think this is for the reasons suggested in the article linked to above, that everything in it is a signifier stripped of its signified; everything has, on one level, been stripped of meaning.

But that doesn't make it "meaningless", if that makes any sense- instead, anything in it means (or can mean) anything and everything. It's like taking acid- everything is stripped of its normal meaning, and your fucked little brain attempts to impose order on it. Shadows from trees become hanging men; Barney the Dinosaur becomes a terrifying field-training guide for white supremacists (actually, I'm not so sure I did hallucinate the last one).

But it's not as simple as that. There are meanings in Dhalgren- as I said at the start of the thread, on one level it's a meditation on, for example, race and sexuality. The reader is given a ludicrous amount of free rein in finding and interpreting Delany's points, but we are definitely being guided in doing this by the Big Events (deaths etc, without getting too specific for those who have't read it yet) that punctuate the narrative.

Kid himself resists categorisation- Perfect Fool? Or knowing, callous gang leader? Or somewhere, or everywhere, in between?

There's also a big reveal about half-way through that, on reflection, actually reveals shit all





SPOILER






The cartons of red contacts








END SPOILER







which... I don't know. Are we being told it's dangerous to make assumptions? Because this book, more than pretty much any other, turned my assumptions on their end constantly. Or dangerous to look for easy answers?

This is also reflected in Kid(d)'s poems themselves, of course- we don't even really know if he's being feted for his own work or that of the notebook's original owner. They're abstract in the extreme, yet people are constantly identifying what they're about (June in particular). Kid's reaction never really lets us know whether they're right or not.

I'm still convinced the key to the whole thing (if indeed there is one) is the astronaut. The world is different after you've been in space, and you can never successfully explain it to anyone, even if you want to.

I guess this is why so many people say they reread it so often- I'd imagine you'd come away with something different every time. It's (almost) literally a hall of mirrors- it's a big fucking maze, and everywhere you look it's reflecting back your own preconceptions.

It's...

...it's just fucking ace, really.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
08:53 / 16.05.06
Just recently finished Dhalgren. I'll forebear from lengthy comment (tr. : I daren't try), but one thing did make me wonder: Had whoever wrote the lyrics for the Roses read the book?

I present as evidence, from "This is the One":

"I'd like to leave the country / for a month of Sundays /
Burn the town where I was born.
If only she'd believe me / Bellona Belladonna /
Burn me out or bring me home."

Whaddya'all reckon? Just coincidence?
 
 
matthew.
12:45 / 16.05.06
I wouldn't say that's coincidence. Thanks for pointing that out. That's awesome!
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:14 / 20.05.06
I just picked this up the other day. Looking forward to it as my summer reading project thingee. An' then I c'n write a book 'eport about it along with "What I Did on My Summer Vacation." Anyone else reading this now or about to start?
 
 
Rigettle
13:50 / 22.05.06
Read this years ago & the thread has made me want to go back there... perhaps.







** spoilers, maybe **

I can remember the vivid attention to detail in some scenes. Like the part when the protagonist has sex with the guy he meets on the roof & he asks what's this stuff like dandruff on your cock? It's the dried juices of the woman from Chapter One.

& when someone explains why the little bubbles stick inside the glass near the bottom because it wasn't washed properly.

It was a book with a lot of feeling in it. I kind of hoped that there'd be some bigger clues as to what was going on but felt slightly disappointed. Maybe I missed them. Or maybe I just don't completely get on with the post modern "nothing means anything but itself" thing.
 
 
matthew.
21:29 / 22.05.06
I think we can safely avoid the big Spoilers stuff now.

I just reread some of my commentary, Stoat's and other poster's commentary, and it's interesting that we could never be wrong on anything.

It's like Dhalgren is the ultimate agnostic position. It always allows for the possibility of meaning, of a higher order. Dhalgren also presses the idea that nothing can ever be proven or isolated.

Dhalgren may go into the highest level of literature hierarchy in my mind: I may re-read it.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
01:01 / 23.05.06
Sigh. Now I want to shift into that possible/probable future where I've finished Dhalgren and can make some commentary. It's on my desk right now and I shall open it up once I've finished Daniel Handler's Adverbs, which is probably worthy of a thread on its own. Either way.

There's a William Gibson introduction to this edition and I plan to read that too.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:07 / 23.05.06
There's a William Gibson introduction to this edition and I plan to read that too.

The Gibson intro is ace. And beautifully written, too.

Anyone know offhand where I could find some Delany interviews or anything about Dhalgren? It'd be interesting to see his own take on it. (And before anyone starts, I'm not being lazy- it only occurred to me while writing this post and I'm about to go a-Googling- just wondered if anyone had any handy).

Fuck it, I'm gonna read it again.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:24 / 23.05.06
Just for balance among all the Dhalgren-lovin'...

This guy is not getting any Christmas cards from me.

Delany is also well known as a Queer Activist with an admitted penchant for pornography

God, what do you EXPECT from those damn Queer Activists?

I love that the guy's main beef with Dhalgren is its supposedly bad writing... I don't think anyone's reading that review and saying to themselves "fuck me! Dude's the new Gore Vidal!!!"
 
 
matthew.
16:32 / 23.05.06
From the linked review up above:

Yes, like the crap that is Finnegans Work (the rantings of a syphilitic) or that of Infinite Jest (the imposture of a fraud), Dhalgren has its apologists who will claim that the book is really about the experience of living inside a novel the characters are unaware of...

Wow. It's pretty impressive to take on James fucking Joyce and say it's rantings. This reviewer seems to have missed the fucking point completely.
 
 
tickspeak
18:40 / 24.05.06
Finished this a couple weeks ago and am still digesting. I like a lot of what's been said here, and I especially like the variety of plausible responses.

Mainly I'm still just caught up in being impressed by the damn thing as a novel playing by the rules of novels (even when it pretends not to). For example:
The way he drops references periodically to tease and jog your memory ("artichokes" being the most obvious example).
The way the eventual reveal of the monastery and interview with Calkins is led up to and forshadowed (esp. the fact that, when it happens, its mechanics and meaning are entirely unexpected but not remotely anti-climactic).
And then there's the George/June thing (what the hell to make of that???) which is such a dangerous bag to open but is handled deftly and with a sense of purpose (even if the purpose itself remains delightfully obscure).

Dhalgren's importance as a modernist (not quite post-modern, I'd say, but then I'm also full of shit) exploration of the uses of meta-narrative and the limits of cause-effect logical structures to elucidate real experience is groovy, but what I found most compelling was the commitment to a subjective viewpoint and to descriptions of events rooted entirely in sensory experience. The only information the reader gets about ANYTHING in Dhalgren is how it FEELS to Kid. Emotions are located in body-response with shocking clarity and the sensory moments (the terrain under Kid's bare foot, or the smell of the air) grounded me completely in the world even though other aspects of the writing were intended to undercut any sense of real comfort or awareness. Of course, in the end, all that Kid knows and experiences still isn't enough to tell "the whole story," which seems more the point to me than anything else (although finding "the point" is also a completely subjective experience).

The sex...I liked it and felt in my gut that it was narratively productive (as opposed to gratuitous) but I can't articulate what progress the various scenes really achieved in terms of story. There were certain key ones (the first encounter with Denny, the Scorpion gangbang) that illuminated the characters, certainly, but I feel like descriptions of non-normative sexual practice is a device that calls such attention to itself by its inclusion that it must be serving a weighty purpose in order to be useful, or even just not-distracting. Again, my feeling is that the sex scenes in Dhalgren were extremely useful, but I can't say why. The Kid/Lanya/Denny relationship, at times, seems to be the only thing keeping Kid from giving in completely to despair, but in the end, of course, it is simply abandoned in the face of physical catastrophe, to which Kid has no choice of response other than to just turn away.

The "it's-about-life-in-a-novel" approach is among my favorites (did I read that here, or in a link from here?) and seems most useful in the consideration of two moments:
when Kid sees Delaney in the mirror (which I didn't realize was Delaney--thanks, Barbelith!) and when Jack wonders why there are no posters of naked women to balance the ubiquity of George's Big Black Cock. The first moment seems to be a gift from Delaney to Kid, to help his poor lost protagonist gain even the slightest clue to anchor his own existence...or maybe it's a vicious prank to send his mind spinning into even vaster and more subjective stratospheres. Somehow, to me that moment hinges on the author-character relationship and the capacity for healing on each end that can be affected by the other (does that make sense?)--but of course author and protagonist teaching and healing one another could just be a preoccupation I brought to the novel. Did anyone else feel this?

I'm having a hard time putting any of my thoughts about this book into coherent structures, as you can no doubt tell.

The why-do-I-have-to-look-at-all-this-dick? conversation...Delaney at his most mercilessly authorial (much like the scene of the monstrous sun), constructing a world of arbitrary and unpleasant dimensions in which the characters suffer without a cause? A cruel joke he plays on a bumpkin Southern racist (you're in MY world now!--but he seems to have too much sympathy for the characters, on the whole, for this to be plausible)? Or does Kid really hit the nail on the head when he posits a female sexual power too vast and unknowable to be iconicized like George's mythical potency?

There's something about the limitations of written language going on that caught my attention as well. In some of Kid's whinier marginal notes in the last chapter it's made obvious, but I dug the way George's speech (and I think that of a couple other characters) is standardized as an admission of the failure of typography to simultaneously represent the sounds and the meanings of his words. It's not a position I necessarily agree with (I think Steinbeck does just fine, for instance) but it's a strong one to take and it's presented well here.

I can't shake the feeling that everything I've said is somehow, in the end, beside the point.
 
 
buttergun
12:42 / 15.06.06
Well, Stoat, I took the advice you posted for me on here back in January and began Dhalgren last night. After reading more books than I can recall over the past several months, I was working my way through John Gardner's 1972 opus "The Sunlight Dialogues." Four days, about 300 pages in, and finally yesterday I said fuck it. Overwritten, turgid prose, massive introspection for any and all characters, no matter how infintesimal to the plot at large. Overwhelming description -- if a guy has a "pocket of water in his cheek," you'll read about it as he swallows it. If a guy struggles to control his gas while others are in his presence, you'll get about five pages of it.

Finally I'd had enough.

For some reason Dhalgren's been on my mind -- mostly due to the review you posted above, the one in which you said the guy's not getting an Xmas card from you. I actually thought that was a great review, and if anything it made me want to read the book more. Mostly because the writer was obviously approaching the book from a sci-fi nerd standpoint. I'd say Dhalgren is not sci-fi at all; has much more in common with something like Gravity's Rainbow.

Anyway, I'm enjoying it so far. I love that fuzzy, hairy funky, drugged-out, mid-70s shit, so the book's already up my alley. Then I got to the part where the girls who were leaving Bellona as Kid came in gave him that steel claw weapon, Kid made a dark joke about accidentally hurting someone on a bus, and I thought, "this is promising already."
 
 
fluid_state
23:53 / 11.09.06
I just finished Dhalgren, and I resolve to choose more books by closing my eyes and pointing at a shelf. Beyond that, it's still pinballing around my skull, making any attempt at analysis laughable. Maybe later. I did, however, find this on google: The Dhalgren MOO, which the creator(?) calls "a text-based, multi-user virtual environment". The idea reminds me of ... something, but I'm not sure what exactly

(the MOO is accessible through telnet - Windows and Mac have a built in client, PuTTY is frequently used with Unix. I've only spent about 10 minutes in "Dhalgren", but the people there seem friendly enough)
 
 
Queer Pirate
05:35 / 19.10.06
I've just finished it. Took me one year. It's such a difficult read.

I loved it. It will be years before I even dare read it again, but I think I will.

I'd had enough comments on how impossible it is to understand Dhalgren to not even bother trying, so I just hopped in and went on for the ride.

It feels so real. There's no place like Bellona. Kid is most likely a nutcase. But I've just put it down and I taste cock in my mouth, feel a bit drunk, get a feeling of grass and broken windows, smell leather and the coppery taste of blood.


ENDING SPOILERS (don't read if you haven't finished it!)
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In the end, it's as if without Bellona to hold him together, Kid dissolves. He gets separated so abruptly from Lanya and Denny, it's crazy, yet... fitting. After all, he can't even hold on to his own name.

It's a dream, except that no dream can endure so much fucking, as Madame Brown pointed out – or last 800 pages.
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END of SPOILERS


I wonder how I would feel about that book if I were straight? Or Black? Or a woman, for that matter.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:37 / 19.10.06
Hmm. I loved it and I'm straight, Delany wrote it and he's black, and it was recommended to me by a woman. I think that's part of its charm- it's so nebulous and all-encompassing that everyone probably gets something different out of it. Kind of like the blind men with the elephant. Only Delany himself probably sees the whole picture.
 
  

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