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Burkhard Heim

 
  

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Wombat
18:28 / 05.01.06
Did you read todays new scientist?

The American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics presented best paper in the future flight catagory to a hyperdrive/antigrav design. Based on the works of Burkhard Heim. (Beleive it or not a Nazi Rocket scientist who was horribly maimed in an accident).

It gets worse. Heims theory not only unifies Quantum mechanics and general relativity it predicts the weight and properties of every particle we`ve found so far and a couple more. All the known forces and two more (an anti-grav one which explains dark energy and a force that pushes against space-time..no reaction mass needed in a space craft)

The theory contains two extra dimensions. One time-like and the other space-like...both of which are visitable.

So I spent a few hours just running thru the ramifications of all this. To make the ship you`d need a spinning superconductor..about 7m acrosss. Best shape for spinning is a disk. Then some kinda em shield on top. It would be able to make rapid turns and accelarations..and dissappear into the other dimensions instantly...not like we`ve never heard of anything like that before.

Then I thought through the ramifications of the extra time dimension. A lot of fortean stuff suddenly made sense. Ghosts , precog (coz your brain exists in the extra dimensions too), wierd animals/visitors/anything.

Then future shock. (In my case chain smoking thinking...oh fuck , oh fuck what now).

Then I hit google. I`m an empiricist at heart and wanted Results..show me it work! Got 2 fluffy papers, a couple of fluffy equations and realised that the entire thing was vapourware. AIAA probably pretended to buy into it for the publicity value. New scientist for the sales. Bastards.

But for a few hours today I actually believed in UFO`s , FTL, extra dimensions , fairies and bigfoot. (ie a total loon)

I can`t find very much information about this. I`d prefer to work thru Heim`s work from first principles. (If he exists..my tinfoil hat theory is that it`s a bunch of scientists taking the piss). So does anyone know anything that isn`t easily googled?

Or if you can`t be arsed to do your own research then feel free to ask me questions. ( as if I know anything)
 
 
All Acting Regiment
00:41 / 06.01.06
The end product's not neccesarily impossible, it's just very sensationalist and a waste of time to pretend we're closer to it than we are.
 
 
Perfect Stranger
01:23 / 06.01.06
Funny cause I was just talking about this on another forum and I figured that I had just about lost them completely and I needed somewhere like Barbelith where people would understand me!

I've been rather thoughful about all this and there a few things I was hoping somebody would help me think through.

1) Multiple Dimentions: well from studing fractile geomitry it became obvious to me that the simplest explaination for the complexity of choas was that it was in fact a simple pattern in an odd number of dimentions. For example if I draw a series of sin waves, each half the wavelenght of the previous one with them all converging in the center of the diagram, it makes a pretty pattern. Now if I ask my computer to draw this pattern in 2 real dimentions and 0.6 imaginary dimentions and just show me the 2d bit; the diagram suddenly becomes chaoticly complex. If I were to take a cross section of the pixles one might think it was completely random, although paladromic. However I know that it's the same simple patten but drawn in 2.6 dimentions.
Now the thing is fractile geomitry is based on this very principle, a simple pattern rendered partly in an imaginary dimention and shown in a 2d cross section (your screen). Now what kind of things do some fractiles resemble? Landscapes, plant form, blood vessles etc.. testable theory, well if I'm right I could analyse a tree and tell you what exact angle the next branch will come off at. I could create an aerofoil that is based on, say, 3.21 dimentions not 3 and thus eliminate clear air turbulence. So it's testible, conforms to occams razor (well you explain chaos in simpler terms!) and it explains and predicts reality. Essentialy the evedence for other spacial dimentions is all around us.

2) Now this is where I get a bit hazy, 8 dimentions, hmm well the thing is.. I want you to imagine that I overheard some aliens talking about this. I dont realy understand but I think maybe somebody else can figure it out. Um, what we call neurtons are actualy more like anti-protons moving backwards in time but it's more like an 8 dimentional mobus strip and they eventualy come back as protons without reaching any sort of end point. The clue has something to do with half-lives of decaying isotopes. We think that there is some micro clockwork going on in every neutron that eventualy goes 'ping!' and the neutron flys off. However the actual mechinism is on the macro scale except that it's running backwards in time (from our point of veiw). Like, if I had 6 jars of hydrogen but one was all deturium isotopes you might ask why all the anti-protons flew out of space into that one jar and not the other (remember we are thinking backwards here). The thing is that they flew into that jar because you are about to run it through it an accumulator then spread it out back into the sea or whereever you got the hydrogen from. It's like lightning finding the path of least resistance, thats what attracted the anti-protons into the jar.

Can anyone make any sence of that? Please I dont need a devils advocate here, I might have got some of it wrong, it's all to do with paradigms and ours are very subjective to the human condition. It's like if the nieve understanding of the big bang were true, then why isnt the galixy supercluser a perfect expanding sphere of equaly spaced particals? The thing is the universe isnt crooked, it's our perspective which is distorted.

I could explain myself further but I've gone on enough!
 
 
Perfect Stranger
01:48 / 06.01.06
Sorry Wombat, I read through your post a couple times and I've kinda gone off on a tangent here. You know Heim was like blind and mostly deaf, well in the great tradition of german nutcases he tried to make a Theory of Everything but got completely bogged down in the details. Like Ludwig Wittgenstien for example! He also only wrote in German and kept much of his best work to himself, like Wiggys Blue Books. However I think he was definitely on to something but I agree it's probably mostly a publicity stunt at the moment. Furthermore I dont think anyone at the AIAA has the slightest idea what is ment by other dimentions.
 
 
Wombat
06:12 / 06.01.06
Stranger-

a) Your sine wave pattern reminds me of fourier analysis. (Where you represent a signal in frequency space ... so halving each time would produce a simple curve that never touches the x axis). Not sure what you mean by chaotic in this context. Do you mean messy (difficult to see a pattern) or chaotic ( no pattern...sometimes emerging from very simple rules). I`m guessing the second.
You are right about fractals in nature. Trees, ferns, landscapes, coastlines, fluids etc... are better represented (and sometimes modelled) by fractals. Wolfram takes this a step further and says that chaotic things are better represented by computation. ( Jury still out on that one as far as I`m concerned but it does work well for some things)
Odd number of dimensions? (mathematical not physical).
Odd as in strange or odd as in nor divisable by 2 giving and integer? I`m guessing you mean a non-integer number of dimensions.
Looking at Heims work I`m guessing he confused map and territory..he seems to have added a few mathematical dimensions and mistook them for actual space/time dimensions. On the heim theory website they say the extra dimensions are imaginary...I`m really hoping they mean i (root -1) or the entire thing is just laughable.
2) Neutrons? Are you sure you don`t mean antimatter? Which on a feynman diagram can sometimes be represented as a positive particle moving back in time. And I can`t see a link between this and extra dimensions. GR is time reversable and doesn`t include any extra dimensions. I`m gonna have to ponder that a while. If you have any links/papers or code that can explain this then I`d like to see them.


Legba- Agreed.This isn`t impossible (yet). The AIAA uses both extra mathematical dimensions and fractals every day. Papers have been published on the fractal wing surface stranger mentioned. Also New Scientist has covered supersting , GUT, etc... with a good degree of accuracy in the past. That`s why I got it so wrong.

Stranger- A theory of everything should get bogged down in the details. Otherwise it isn`t a theory of anything. It`s fairly easy (and fun) to come up with fluffy theories of everything. What Heim-theorists are claiming is they have all the details worked out.
 
 
Perfect Stranger
12:46 / 06.01.06
Thanks for not dismissing me as an unhinged loon Wombat! I must admit I dont usual stay up to 4 in the morning discussing ToE and I probably was getting a bit fluffy! The thing is I'm more of a philosopher than a physicist but remember we discovered the atom about 1500 years before physicist did by firing arrows at tortoices.

Anyway, you seem to be up on physiscs, and you seem to know what I'm sayig so maybe you could help me here. I'm looking at the world as a philosopher rather than a pysicist, language rather than mathimatics.

Regarding imaginary dimentions; I think you are saying that they are like fiddle factors, i.e. just part of the pattern but without any 'real' manifistation. So a tree can be simplified if we could see it in 3.6 dimentions but it doesnt meen that there is 0.6 dimentions of the tree hanging around outside of our awareness in some kind of hyperspace.

Well philosophicly speaking there is no difference between the two, like we might all be brains in jars like the matrix or we might not. We cannot talk about things which are necisarily outside of our perception of the world because there cannot possibly be any data on it (or it wouldnt be outside our perception). Bottom line; it works as an analogy of the percived world so lets use it and not get bogged down with unanswerable questions.

By odd dimentions I just meen that there may be 4 dimentins, there may be 8 or 12 or there may be 8.638153893 dimentions, it could be an irrational number that goes on forever. Our system of mathimatic cant even handle a cical, probably the most basic natural shapes there is. So what are the chances it's perfectly adapted to handling the whole universe?

When people talk about extra spacial dimention we have this sci-fi idea about alternative worlds or hyperspace. When I talk about a universe existing in 8 or so dimentions I cannot imagine our 3d or 4d bodys being able to move outside of percived space anymore than you could hope to swap your X axis with your T axis, your up/downyness with your position in time.

Now the thing with stuff moving backwards, it just that I feel I caught a glimpse of something but it's trapped in my head and if I dont say something then I might forget it entirly. This is where my philosophy comes in; feilds like a magnetic feild it has two sides like an electromagnet, each side attracting like. So does gravity have two sides? I meen I read in the wikipedia that physicist have difficulty explaining why gravity is such a weak force and that one suggestion is that some of the force is directed towards another dimention. Keep this in mind!

Next, look at everything in reverse (it was isotope decay that first got me doing this), in reverse gravity repels rather than attracts. So when we run time backwards why doesnt the earth just explode into atomic dust? Well there is the repelent force of atoms that in forward time stops atoms from colapsing in on themselves. Well in reverse it acts as an attracting force which glues everything together in clups whilst gravity trys to force everything apart. Although as we go back in time far enough to the big bang everything does blow apart into dust and clouds then gets sucked up into a big black hole (the big bang in reverse). Er, I'm lossing it here, let me just drop that line of reasoning for a second!

So what if the anti-universe, the other 4 or 6 dimentions or whatever, is effectively running backwards to our universe. Where we have more protons than neutrons (or anti-protons) there it is opisite. Hmm, something is telling me the thing with the big bang and the big crush are actualy just illisions caused by our perspective and that it's actual one big loop. Anyway, what I'm getting at is; a magnetic feild has both of it's polarities in our percivable 3d space but what if some feilds work on a different axis, the other half of the gravity feild permiates into hyperspace but doesnt blow the hyperspacial earth to atomic dust because cause and effect are running backwards in those dimentions.

Actualy that is a simplification, it's not like 2 linier world running in paralel, time/space is curved in multiple dimentions. Thats what I was getting at with the modus strip analogy and the 'illusion' of the big bang etc. Effectivly it's like the curved universe theory but time/space and at least as many other dimentions are all part of the totality, there are no real boundries except what we impose arbitarily due to our limited perception.

Does any of that make the slighest bit of sence? I just hope some of this might stimulate the imagination of somebody more able to handle the details than myself, maybe I was just tripping out when all this came to me!
 
 
Wombat
14:21 / 06.01.06
Original paper

Ooops. This is NOT fluffy.
My apologies.

Looks like this guy succeeded where einstein failed and has brought QM into general relativity.

These guys got the award for devising a way to make the theory testable.

If there has been a ToE around for 20 years why is it that I only heard about it yesterday.
 
 
Quantum
18:01 / 06.01.06
I must read that link! But to join in I'll add that Wombat's right about the Feynmann antimatter thing, i.e. matter going backwards in time, and that the extra dimensions implied in Quantum Electrodynamics and string theory are different to the partial dimensions used to create fractals. My math is too bad to grasp it fully though, any mathematicians reading?

I think I'll re-read the thread though (Perfect- your spelling is as appalling as ever) before weighing in, hang on...
 
 
Perfect Stranger
21:38 / 06.01.06
Grr, how can there be two seporate theories of everything? It has to be connected! Nevermind, it's just that this Heim thing reminded me of a lot of thoughts which I have had on the matter.

Anyway, so why can't they test the theory? What do they need, a superconductor and a big spinny magnet? You wouldnt actualy need to levitate anything, just show a reduction in weight right? So it doesnt have to be full scale does it?
 
 
Wombat
22:06 / 06.01.06
Stranger - um some of your intuitions are misguided. Most of them are not even wrong. But it`s well worth keeping on.

Don`t trust some random guy on a BB.
Decide for yourself.

"The elegant universe" by Brian greene.

good starting point for all the many-dimension stuff.

"emergence" by Steve Johnson

nice book on how complexity arises from simple rules.

"Chaos" by James Gleick

a good place to start with chaos theory.

"The road to reality" by Roger Penrose.

not an easy book. but a good overview of current physics...I`m only 1/4 of the way in but got distracted by a new ToE.

*grin* If you have new questions and insights after reading this stuff...you might have missed your vocation.

Um. I`m willing to give away any data on the new Heim stuff..but I can`t respond to all your questions. I`m sorry.


Quantum- I`m still not convinced. It`s highly probable it`s a hoax or just wrong. The lack of theory is worrying. The offer of a practical demo is impressive.

Even so. I`m both scared shitless and desparate to know more.
 
 
Perfect Stranger
22:21 / 06.01.06
You know Q. I dont read to good either, we are going to have to make some serious time next time we get together and I need you to explain all the relivent stuff you've read. Unless the 'breif history of the universe' is available on audio tape?
 
 
Perfect Stranger
22:30 / 06.01.06
wow, that one for the coicodence log! I was just thinking I realy need to read up on this more. Then get Quantum to proof read everything I write but he's seen what happens when I use a spell checker, it just get even more confusing, hehehe.

Nah, my ideas are half baked but I realy feel I was onto something at the time, if only I could find my notebooks. Mind you it was during the time when very few people could understand what was saying, in shops, seminars, essays so perhapse I was just on one.

Thanks for your input wombat, I will put them all on my amazon wish list (people buy me things from it occasional). How about the questions regarding the possibility of testing it though? Wouldnt that be worth doing?
 
 
Wombat
22:54 / 06.01.06
Heh. This is testable. But that`s all it is. ( well for me...hence the request for more data)
I don`t know if it`s worth testing.
At the moment all I have is a test...very little theory.
But if you actually had a ToE then floating matter and zapping it into a parrellel universe would be a an excellent way to prove your point...why fuck about with slight weight loss when the tools you need to be really impressive already exist.

Not gonna hold my breath waiting for it to happen though.
Faster people than me are gonna look into this.
I`ll wait for their data.
(damn I need a brain upgrade)
 
 
Perfect Stranger
11:36 / 07.01.06
"This will require a huge rotating ring placed above a superconducting coil to create an intense magnetic field. With a large enough current in the coil, and a large enough magnetic field, Dröscher claims the electromagnetic force can reduce the gravitational pull on the ring to the point where it floats free. Dröscher and Häuser say that to completely counter Earth's pull on a 150-tonne spacecraft a magnetic field of around 25 tesla would be needed. While that's 500,000 times the strength of Earth's magnetic field, pulsed magnets briefly reach field strengths up to 80 tesla. And Dröscher and Häuser go further. With a faster-spinning ring and an even stronger magnetic field, gravitophotons would interact with conventional gravity to produce a repulsive anti-gravity force, they suggest."

from the NS artical, here is the link for anyone who doesnt have it

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundamentals/mg18925331.200.html

but I can't find any more detail, a diagram would be nice. People on other forums have implied that the ring would have to be magnetic but I dont know if it's an electromagnet or a real one. The superconductor, whats that about? What you just put it next to it or something like fen shue.

Begining to sound like the infinite improbability drive that runs off a nice hot cup of tea.

We have cryogenic superconductors already dont we? I suppose the whole project would be like building the first partical accelorator or that thing they do fusion reactions in.
 
 
Quantum
12:46 / 07.01.06
"the electromagnetic force can reduce the gravitational pull on the ring to the point where it floats free"

Won't it be tricky to seperate the antigrav effects from the fierce elctromagnetic effects? My understanding is that a superconductor will float on a magnet anyway (maglev trains, I saw one on the Xmas lectures once) so how will they tell when the weight is reduced? Will it float a bit higher? How will they be sure it's not EM 'turbulence' or fluctuation in the field strength or whatever?

More research by me needed I think...
 
 
Quantum
12:54 / 07.01.06
that thing they do fusion reactions in. Perfect Stranger

A fusion reactor?

At least a decade away dude, perhaps you mean Fission?

 
 
Perfect Stranger
16:23 / 07.01.06
"tokamak"

 
 
Perfect Stranger
16:32 / 07.01.06
anyway, when I was saying Q. is that it's a bit of a leap of faith when you embark on such a venture. Not to mention quite an expence to make such a prototype, so yeah the first fission reactor could be added to the list along with the Manhattin project and the lunar landing (if you belive in it).
 
 
Perfect Stranger
16:37 / 07.01.06
ohh I like this image thing!





tell me if this is bordering on spaw :S
 
 
Wombat
19:11 / 08.01.06
Full derivation of the mass equations will be published in May.
Full derivation of anti-grav equations published in July.
I`ll see what the physics community says then.
 
 
Quantum
14:50 / 10.01.06
My bad, there's an experimental reactor at Princeton, it's ITER that is a decade away (and likely to be built in France). I thought Tokamak fusion reactors were still in the realm of sci-fi.

But then, I thought antigrav was still sci fi too. We'll see in May.
 
 
Mirror
15:03 / 10.01.06
Speaking of antigravity...

I recall an Asimov short story about a local antigravity generator. The insightful bit of the story is that, when the force of gravity is removed from the object, that object doesn't float. Instead, according to conservation of momentum, it continues to move in a straight line.

At the velocity it was moving previously.

The earth is spinning, moving around the sun, which is moving around the galactic axis, which adds up to a huge velocity and a highly unpredictable direction.

In the story, the region subject to antigravity glowed in the ultraviolet spectrum due to the acceleration of air molecules (or rather, their conservation of momentum at a tangent to the galactic rotation) and subsequent interaction with surrounding air.

Kris
 
 
grant
15:28 / 10.01.06
Boeing, among others, was doing some research with spinning superconductors and antigravity, based on experiments by a Russian fellow. Here's a pdf file from nasa.gov that mentions the dude's research. Podkletnov. Along with a few other way-out antigravity guys. The document is outlining a research program opening up new forms of propulsion.

Here's another pdf, this one of one of Podkletnov's articles describing "the existence of an unexpected physical interaction" -- that is, things put over a spinning superconductor start to weigh less than they should.
 
 
Dead Megatron
17:39 / 10.01.06
You know, it was with that technology that the Nazis built the Foo Fighters....
 
 
Atyeo
22:47 / 10.01.06
This reminds me of a book i read about 5 years ago called "Hunt for Zero Point". You can find a quick review of it here: Hunt for Zero Point

It's all probably rubbish but it's an engrossing read and as it's written by a Jane's Aviation Editor so it's worth a look. I spent the next fortnight telling everyone that antigravity devices existed much to the annoyance of my friends. Ha! What did they know?

I also researched Chaos Theory for my final year project at University, however, in an engineering context. I'm a bit shaky on the maths unfortunately as it was concerned with the practicality of modelling real world non-linear systems and being a lowly engineer I have sub-par maths skills.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
06:36 / 11.01.06
Some news on this.

AN EXTRAORDINARY "hyperspace" engine that could make interstellar space travel a reality by flying into other dimensions is being investigated by the United States government.

The hypothetical device, which has been outlined in principle but is based on a controversial theory about the fabric of the universe, could potentially allow a spacecraft to travel to Mars in three hours and journey to a star 11 light years away in just 80 days, according to a report in today's New Scientist magazine.

The theoretical engine works by creating an intense magnetic field that, according to ideas first developed by the late scientist Burkhard Heim in the 1950s...


Scotsman article here
 
 
Quantum
10:06 / 11.01.06
The earth is spinning, moving around the sun, which is moving around the galactic axis, which adds up to a huge velocity and a highly unpredictable direction.

Similarly, Strontium Dog had T-guns that teleported people five minutes into the future, but since the Earth had moved on they appeared in space with shocked expressions.

It's a fallacy though, we're not moving through objective space, all motion is relative (cf. Einstein). The centre of the galaxy is as arbitrary a reference point as the centre of the Earth. When designing a time machine it's best to calibrate it to remain in the same frame of reference as the ground unless it's on a spacecraft.


Will the antigravity drive decrease inertia too I wonder?
 
 
grant
11:54 / 11.01.06
I think since gravity is the measure of mass that it would.
 
 
Wombat
15:43 / 11.01.06
I disagree. Mass would stay the same and hence inertia would stay the same.

According to the paper a new force has been discovered that works in much the same way as gravity but is weakly repulsive. The carriers of this force (gravitophotons) can be generated and directed by a magnetic field gradient and a superconductor. If the ship had no mass then neither gravity or gravitophotons would have any effect.

Damn..inertialess drive...*adds to wish list*. Hmmm would probably break the laws of conservation of energy though.
 
 
Wombat
15:46 / 11.01.06
I think since gravity is the measure of mass that it would

So if you were in deep space and threw a rock (weight 0, mass 1kg) at you...it wouldn`t hurt?
 
 
distractile
08:22 / 12.01.06
Mass is a complicated concept: it comes in at least two flavours which are conceptually distinct but practically indistinguishable. An anti-gravity device would by definition make an object's gravitional mass disappear, but I don't think it can be assumed that it would make its inertial mass disappear.

Actually, were such a thing to exist, it might prove useful in testing for any difference between gravitational and inertial mass and provide (yet another) test of general relativity, which postulates that the two are in fact the same.

Yes, the zero-gee rock would hurt. "Hurting" = force = (inertial) mass x acceleration. Since the rock still has mass and would decelerate abruptly when it hit you, it'd exert an ouchy force on you.
 
 
grant
14:38 / 12.01.06
But wouldn't it hurt because it had weight? I mean, it wouldn't be pulled down by the gravity from something as big as the Earth, but it'd have its own mass, wouldn't it? Or would it hurt for some other reason? (In other words, what's the difference between inertial mass and gravitational mass?)

This might be a better question for another thread, but I'm genuinely curious.
 
 
Quantum
15:03 / 12.01.06
I still can't read the paper (no acrobat or word on this PC) and it's frustrating. Any chance of posting the abstract or summary?

If the inertial mass remains then it will be a rubbish stardrive, we'd have to accelerate the mass until midpoint and then decelerate it again, and the force needed to accelerate the mass will be unchanged. The speed of light restriction will still apply, which decreased inertia would alleviate*. The antigrav would make it easy to escape the gravity well, or coast about within a system or near large masses, but wouldn't help at all for interstellar flight. In my mind it's like Larry Niven's Kzinti Gravity Drive.

Since there were claims to reduce flight time to Mars and Proxima, I'm thinking the drive *will* decrease inertial mass in the same way it decreases gravitic mass, not eliminate the interaction with gravity but reduce it.


(* mass increases as velocity increases rising to infinite mass at the speed of light, I wonder how this affects that)
 
 
Quantum
16:05 / 12.01.06
Grant- from the link

-Inertial mass is a measure of an object's resistance to changing its state of motion when a force is applied. An object with small inertial mass changes its motion more readily, and an object with large inertial mass does so less readily.
...so mass subject to momentum basically

-Passive gravitational mass is a measure of the strength of an object's interaction with the gravitational field. Within the same gravitational field, an object with a smaller passive gravitational mass experiences a smaller force than an object with a larger passive gravitational mass. (This force is called the weight of the object. In informal usage, the word "weight" is often used synonymously with "mass", because the strength of the gravitational field is roughly constant everywhere on the surface of the Earth. In physics, the two terms are distinct: an object will have a larger weight if it is placed in a stronger gravitational field, but its passive gravitational mass remains unchanged.)
...so mass subject to gravitic attraction

-Active gravitational mass is a measure of the strength of the gravitational field due to a particular object. For example, the gravitational field that one experiences on the Moon is weaker than that of the Earth because the Moon has less active gravitational mass.
...so the grav field.

I'm thinking since this thing reduces Passive grav mass, it probably reduces active grav mass (good for FTL) and inertial mass (good for speedy acceleration) as well.
 
 
grant
17:50 / 12.01.06
goes off to actually read the article.

comes back.


OK, I still have the same question. I think it comes from this part here: Einstein's equivalence principle states that it is impossible to distinguish between a uniform acceleration and a uniform gravitational field. Thus, the theory postulates that inertial and gravitational masses are fundamentally the same thing. All of the predictions of general relativity, such as the curvature of spacetime, are ultimately derived from this principle.

It seems like Einstein must've had some way to refute that thrown rock, although the only solution that occurs to me using relativity seems like a real contortion (the rock-me interaction suddenly gets a bunch of gravity along one axis, from the perspective of either the rock or me). Momentum is the same thing as gravity?
 
  

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