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Chaos martial arts

23:42 / 22.12.05

Psychic martial arts, magickal martial arts. This matter brought me to Barbelith, and has kept coming back into my life recurrently... almost each year.
This time, I was writting an article for a role playing page of a friend of mine on martial artists and psionics... and that got me thinking...
How would a postmodern chaos oriented take on martial arts be?
In a way, it´s that Mixed Martial Arts focus taken on some fighting contests... pragmatic, result oriented. Dominate every technique and use what it takes.
But what about the inner and the soft aspects of martial arts?
Don´t they have a place in PoMo chaos martial arts?

04:04 / 23.12.05

But what about the inner and the soft aspects of martial arts?
Don´t they have a place in PoMo chaos martial arts?

I'd hope so! How could you have the outer without the inner if it was genuinely chaos orientated?

Maybe take the three internals, Taiji, Bagua and Xing-Yi, and mix them with any three externals, like Shaolin, Karate and Judo, for example. You could also have things like Aikido as a bridge between both because it has internal aspects to it, and maybe more could be used for the same reason. It could get really confusing though. (for obvious reasons.) Jeet Kune Do would surely have a lot of tips for something like this.

As for the Magick aspect, well I see it as a form of Magick in itself, but it all depends on what type of things you wanted to add. Doing something like this in real life and being good at it would take years and years, and...........years.

Qi-Gong and Meditation would surely be a big part of it aswell. Maybe you'd have to meditate a fair bit just to hold all that lot together.

nyarlathotep's shoe horn

16:04 / 23.12.05

if you're looking for an existing martial art that's post-modern, the closest you'll come is with Tai-Bo.

which isn't so much martial.

if you're looking to develop a post-modern martial art, then consider the post-modern (at least in literary terms) deconstruction of language to ascribe new meaning.

taking the precepts, foundations and assumptions and reworking them into something new that holds the same truisms as existing martial arts.

in the end, all practitioners of a post-modern martial art will develop their own styles beyond differences in kata.

might even look like juggling, as opposed to tai chi.

in the end, i think a balance between the hard skills (jit kun do) and soft skills (tai chi) will suit the post-modern aesthetic.

or capoeira.

-not jack

16:07 / 23.12.05

wing chun
soft and hard, all in one, no nonsense...

Nietzsch E. Coyote

20:02 / 23.12.05

Aikido + Karate + Iron Palm + Caporeia + Parkour, filtered by Jeet Kune do.

10:38 / 25.12.05

is the goal of martial arts to defeat your opponent?

if thats the case, perhaps the purchase of an automatic pistol would help you in your goal. of course, dont ignore the fact that a person with a gun is more likely to get shot than an unarmed person.

of the few martial arts ive studied, all have methods of avoiding conflict rather than winning it. in a hard styles, this might consist of intimidation, while in a soft style, it might consist of unnoticeability or unpredictability (only a madman picks a fight with a madman, sort of thing).

i practice some kind of chaos qigong, which ive cobbled together from dozens of snippets and texts about chinese alchemy and medicine, and a handfull of drop-in classes, and a smattering of falun gong. it generally consists of moving and breathing as consciously and confidently as possible, while intuitively allowing my body to do what it needs to do, especially activities such as stretching, standing, dancing, and, in my case, handling various sticks.

the realm of weapons is probably something a chaos martial artist is going to want to study right away. most initiatory martial arts require you to have a certain amount of proficiency with your own body before they will teach you about weapons. this is to prevent you from hurting yourself and others unintentionally. it seems to me that one of the foundations of chaos magic is not to be afraid of hurting yourself, at least not when it keeps you from learning something. so maybe throw down a few sigils to keep your skin on tight, and then grab a big ol sword and start whirling it around. im sure you will learn something!

00:15 / 29.12.05

Well…

Talking as someone who knows (and practices) no more than little bits of martial arts:

We have, undoubtedly, some martial arts which work with this post-modern principle of “if it works, use it”. Just like Chaos Magic, some school have adopted principles and techniques of different schools and styles aiming to create something different and better. Bruce Lee did it when he created Jeet Kune Do, one style of Capoeira does the same. Krav Magah is another example of a martial art that was created absorbing different styles. Parkour and Tai Bo, that are not exactly martial arts, are also good examples of what I mean.

But all these young martial arts (or young styles among old martial arts) are post-modern only in their external use and appliance (the “hard aspect”). None of them has absorbed different philosophies to create its own. Nor have any of them adopted the principle of utility on its meditative, “soft” exercises. Actually, the tendency is very much the opposite. These new martial arts usually see themselves as schools of fighting or gymnastics. Not as a way of living. They may teach honor, calm, discipline and et cetera, but they don’t go much further… Even meditation is usually out of their curriculum…

(Okay, Bruce Lee even wrote articles about “The Tao of Jeet Kune Do”, but I’ve never seen any jeet kune do master teaching anything about it)

Of course, one as a chaoist martial artist can do that. To use the “if it works, use it” to absorb, mix and improve different kinds of eastern philosophies and practices to use it. The “chaos-oriented qi-gong” that Sherman talks about seems to be a good example.

Unfortunately, I never heard about a martial arts school (or style) that uses to do so. If I may give another example a friend of mine practices shooting (with firearms) using the same principles of concentration as the Japanese archery.

But, as I said, these are isolated examples. There is no “martial art school of shooting”. (that I know)

Nietzsch E. Coyote

07:44 / 11.01.06

The "martial art school of shooting" is "Take YOUR time".

10:56 / 11.01.06

As I understand it, most of the martial arts have an element of this "post-modern, use it if it works, blend ideas from other sources" vibe, and always have done.

I've studied capoeira for three years and found constant change and evolution. No two teachers taught the moves the same way, all the students picked up mixtures of techniques from different sources and blended them all in the roda (the game played in a circle of your peers and teachers) All my teachers taught respect directly and quietly some subtler internal aspects through the ritual of the game which is a part of all capoeira teachings.

I've spent a bit of time with ninjutsu/ninpo which carries a huge long history of adaption, "theft", scientific testing ("hey, you prisoner, you're scheduled to be executed, so I'm going to test my new sword technique on you. This might hurt.." - I may have this muddled from some Samuri history, so I appologise to any ninjas out there who've studied more accurately than I have). The ninjas used to learn Samuri arts and then develop ways to defeat them. I'm sure I read somewhere a quote from [one of] the most advanced ninjutsu masters about adaption...

Shaolin took inspiration from animal fighting techniques..

You can also find books which, through difficult waffly language, seem to suggest that the focus of training, and certainly mastership (teaching aspects aside) should be to find new techniques and applications of the existing ones.

To me, this suggests most of the arts are already fairly "post-modern". But (here comes the disclaimer) perhaps:
1) i don't know enough about post-modernism or magick to be able to make these judgements from any firm grouding (very likely!)
or/and
2) some of the arts have lost their progressive approach and got caught in a bind of dogma for the purposes of maintaining identity, liniage, identifiable schools etc..

What do people think?

11:24 / 11.01.06

These new martial arts usually see themselves as schools of fighting or gymnastics. Not as a way of living.

Hmm.

The Tao of Jeet Kune Do does have a bit of philosophy innit.

I've never taken a class, but I do own the book. I did take a judo class where we meditated at the beginning of every session.

To a certain degree, I think martial arts are going to be postmodern just because here is where we live. There's no escaping the sensibility. And the fact that you can have someone who's taken tai chi and judo and archery and marksmanship and talks about all of them as part of one thing is a postmodern/chaos magick idea.

12:39 / 11.01.06

I just found a dojo in my town. They mostly specialize in Jeet Kune Do, but their motto is "no one style as way".

From their website: We encourage all practitioners of any martial art to "absorb what is useful" in their system or style and combine the knowledge of these new techniques along with what they can learn from many other arts. Sounds a whole lot like post modern chaos magick martial arts to me, especially adding in the internal aspects I'll be bringing along (should be interesting, a Discordian in a disciplined environment).

Depending on the cost, I'm joining Friday.

16:08 / 11.01.06

Jet kune do does hava chaos element to it. As for magick in general, every martial art has a bit of it (some more than other, but I 'won't trya and rank them here). As you train and develop, your senses expand, your perception deepens, you become more tuned with the universe, and you ability to influence also increases. What else is magick, after all?
I personally prefer inner martial arts, as tai-chi, qi-gong, and ba-gua zhang. (check this website: www.caiwenyu.com.br [it's a Brazilian site, but there's an English version]). But, of course, you need to practice for years before noticing any change, and it takes a good master also, not just any joe...

23:59 / 11.01.06

As I've often said, there are a lot of similarities between magick (and magickal orders) and martial arts (and martial orders). There are great advantages to sticking to one system and taking it as far as you can, but it can become too rigid and self-absorbed. The opposite is that continuous sampling of various paths can lead to the "Jack of all trades, master of none" syndrome where you have many techniques but none of them are performed that well.

I would suggest training in a specific system for several years before moving to a different one. Or perhaps training concurrently in two complementary systems (eg ninpo taijutsu and escrima). This allows one to really settle into the forms and integrate them to an unconscious degree.

And maybe this is the real point: to integrate the techniques, magickal or martial, to such an extent that they become an unconscious, ingrained component of your being. With such a foundation it becomes easier to improvise and mix it up, provided you've not gotten so lost in the formal techniques.

But again, I think without some degree of discipline and formal training over a reasonable amount of time (a few years at least), martial arts are ineffective and even self-deluding.

00:05 / 12.01.06

I should qualify that last statement and say that some people can find benefit from even the most cursory introduction to the techniques. Better to know one decent move than none at all. The advantage of formal training is the repetition of the kamai & katas (forms & techniques) and in working with other fighters.

05:49 / 12.01.06

i agree with what you say, but i would sugest that effective is in the aye of the beholder. not everyone studies to kick asses, and as a form of exercise and learning metal discipline, a martial art can be exceptionally effective in the space of months.

i think the interesting thing about bruce lee's take what is useful philosophy is that he wasnt a new student. he was a childhood martial artist, trained for years in the first art he experienced. he didnt write the tao until after he had mastered wing chun to an incredible degree and had added other techniques to his repertoire.
his was a melding of several components he already knew, not a pick-and-mix then learn approach.

also, he was quite clearly exceptionally gifted, and his teachings should be understood in that light.

i wouldnt expect to be able to learn a new style as fast as he did, and i wouldnt expect to be able to decide which style to use in a split second as he plainly could.

jeet kune do is powerful in its adaptability, sure. but, as my friend the tae kwon do master put it...
you like a cup of tea, yeah? and you like orange juice, dont you? but you wouldnt mix them, would you?
mixing them gives yo a drink that isnt nice like tea or nice like orange juice, but a horribly sour and curdled mess.

jeet kune do is often that mess.

05:55 / 12.01.06

or to put it yet another way...

if you're gona take what is useful, who are you to say that anything in a style that has worked for centuries is useless?

to learn JKD true, you need to make it yourself.
to make it yourself and make it well, you'd need to be about a hudred years old, or to be bruce 'muthafuckin' leee, bitch.