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Catholicism Wow!

 
 
Quantum
10:46 / 20.12.05
(disclaimer- I hope nobody is offended by this thread, it's intended as a place to praise the church)

I went to a couple of churches the other day, and they were great. By chance they were both Catholic churches (St Bart's, the largest parish church in UK apparently and St Paul's) and I was really impressed. As devices for inducing awe and joy they really work, in St Barts the vast space was echoing to a flautist tuning up, and even that brought a lump to my throat because the acoustics are so fucking amazing. The decorations were beautiful of course, stained glass windows, golden statuary and candles in amazing architecture, the incense was heady, the Virgin was all over the place (with baby Jesus and some rabbits in some depictions), it was moving. I can only imagine what it must be like if you're a believer in the middle of a high ritual like Mass, it must be absolutely mind-blowing. The people were friendly and welcoming, provided information about the building, it's history, and events, in the visitors book I wrote "Glorious!"

As an Atheist-turned-magician I'm less inclined to see the positive side of the church than most, but they do nice things as well. For example, Friday and Saturday night loads of drunken teenagers pass out in the street outside the church (West St for those who know Brighton- eurgh). The response of St Paul's was to set up Operation Safe Haven, a scheme where vulnerable drunken teens are sat down in a blanket with a cup of tea, generally looked after and sent home in a taxi. How Christian of them, I thought.

It's easy to criticise the church as an organisation (the crusades, inquisition and ban on contraception for example) but this thread is to praise it. I've focussed on the Catholic church because those churches were, but obviously other denominations have great rituals, fantastic church buildings and do good deeds, praise them here too.
 
 
Claris Dancers
16:00 / 20.12.05
It's good to see the tithings go someplace useful to keep up a monstrous place like that and to pay all the people who run it. I mean it's not like there are starving or homeless people everywhere who would enjoy the money more or anything. But i forgot, people aren't "saved" by acts, but by believing.

I'm so sorry, i just can't be nice to that bunch of pedophilic, self-righteous, judgemental pricks.
 
 
Mirror
17:39 / 20.12.05
It's good to see the tithings go someplace useful to keep up a monstrous place like that and to pay all the people who run it. I mean it's not like there are starving or homeless people everywhere who would enjoy the money more or anything.

I think that there is also a place for the awesome and beautiful in this world, and if people want to give their money to the upkeep of such things, more power to them. I'm basically an atheist, but I count a lot of the medieval churches among the most beautiful creations of humankind.

There's also a tremendous amount of Catholic charity out there that is available to anyone regardless of religious conviction.

This isn't to defend the transgressions of the church, but I challenge anyone to name an organization of such power that has not become corrupt. Corruption and power seem to go together in the human experience, and centralization of power isn't going to go away, whatever the idealistic anarchists think.

Fuck the Pope and the college of cardinals, though. Their stance on birth control in Africa is nothing short of genocidal.
 
 
grant
17:58 / 20.12.05
Pope's not the be-all. Just sayin'.


Self-righteous and judgemental? Hmm.
 
 
Claris Dancers
18:02 / 20.12.05
I think that there is also a place for the awesome and beautiful in this world, and if people want to give their money to the upkeep of such things, more power to them.

Indeed yes, i have no problem with what people choose to spend their own money on. I find the colloquial old woman who leaves her inheritance to the cat instead of her family the most amusing though.

Corruption and power seem to go together in the human experience, and centralization of power isn't going to go away, whatever the idealistic anarchists think.

I agree again - all the more reason to not let them get away with being the pricks that they are when they whip out a shiny distracting thing, like the beautiful cathedrals. And yes, they are quite intricate and beautiful.

Fuck the Pope and the college of cardinals, though. Their stance on birth control in Africa is nothing short of genocidal.

Amen brother.
 
 
Claris Dancers
18:07 / 20.12.05
Grant:

the one reply to that thread (by quixote), sums up my appraisal of that situation exactly...

An official order to shut up won't be long in coming. They killed liberation theology too. This is the Church that took 500 years to understand that Galileo was right. The real miracle is that there are still people of conscience in it, and they're still trying to help people.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
18:36 / 20.12.05
look to South America...

must say, i was raised catholic, and looking at all the rather bloody stained glass and statuary, echoes up into the Churrigueresque abyss made up for the long, tedious what-all that was going on at the altar.

in Paris and Montreal (so, not really Churrigueresque, but when am I next ever going to get to use that word?)

-not jack
 
 
Quantum
18:36 / 20.12.05
It's easy to criticise the church as an organisation but this thread is to praise it ...and possibly leaning more toward Churches-as-giant-psychengines and their mind altering properties if anyone's up for that. Huxley had alot to say about it in the Doors of Perception.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
18:38 / 20.12.05
all hail the grotesqueries of the gargoyle!

la gargouille

the great, grotesque, gothic gargler.

-not jack
 
 
Mmothra
14:13 / 21.12.05
I find that Tibetan Buddhism does the same thing for me without all the misogyny, childfucking, inquisitions and stuff.

Meister Eckhart is pretty awesome, admittedly.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
16:01 / 21.12.05
yes, 'cause Buddhists have never committed any sins against one another...

must be nice to be so universally enlightened.

my, must you dredge out the dark in a thread devoted to the opposite???

not trying to sell you on the religion, but Hell, you could try and find something positive about it instead of pointing out the very obvious, very nasty bits of its history?

or is that asking too much?

-not jack
 
 
grant
16:51 / 21.12.05
The medieval church building was designed as a representation of the metaphysics of the cross.

That is, a vertical ascent from the mundane (through the front doors) to the celestial, represented as the joining of three essential natures into one divine presence.

Like so:



Every step of the way, quite literally, you're being reminded of an ascent into the state of Christ's sacrifice.

You can read more about how all the parts fit together here, on wikipedia.

The narthex is the entrance -- the base of the cross. This is typically pointed west, and often consists of a triple doorway. There is often a vestibule beyond it, for the hanging of wet clothes, removal of dirty boots and general primping, preening and preparation. The vestibule will typically contain a font, containing holy water, which congregants use to cross themselves when entering the church.

The nave is the long alley leading up to the heart of the church. It comes from the same root word as navy, since it resembles a boat -- long rows of benches (the pews), carrying you up that river to salvation.

The arms of the cross are called the transept, which generally have shrines or chapels at their ends, located in areas called porches (because they're generally beyond doors). Where the transept arms cross the nave, they define the choir, the "head" of the cross, where you'll find the sanctuary, the holiest portion of the church.

This, located just east of the crossing (which is the, uh, crossing), is the spiritual center of the building, where the miracle of the Mass is celebrated. Other chapels may have altars, but this is the home of the high altar, generally elevated and well lit. It may house the tabernacle, where the host is stored (the bread which miraculously becomes the body of Christ -- and yes, it's "host" in the same sense as a person who invites guests or is plagued by parasites). As you might guess from the name, the sanctuary is also where medieval fugitives could expect peace and safety from whoever was pursuing them.

Beneath the sanctuary is the crypt (which can hold bodies of old bishops, and may be an old pagan sacred site), and beyond it is the curve of the apse, containing the presbytery (an area for priests, presbyters, to sit when not active during rituals) and the ambulatory (a walkway for ordinary folks to get around the sanctuary without intruding on the sacred space). When approaching or crossing in front of the sanctuary, congregants are supposed to genuflect.

Typically, in the back of the apse there is a chapel (marked on that above diagram) dedicated to the patron saint of the church or to Mary, the mother of Christ. Note also that the apse is a curved space, unlike the other walls of the church.
 
 
grant
17:24 / 21.12.05
Just to clarify the first thing I said, those metaphysics would be:

.....FATHER (divine originator)
...........|
...HOLY--SPIRIT (invisible omnipresence)
...........|
.......SON (descent into worldliness)


Notice also how the cross-shape is really defined in terms of negative space -- it's the hollow inside the walls. The reverence is being shown to things you can't see, just as the transubstantiation is concerned with the invisible transformation of substance, which is the "real" (invisible) part of the bread, as opposed to the accidents which are the mere physical qualities the bread possesses.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:02 / 21.12.05
I'm so sorry, i just can't be nice to that bunch of pedophilic, self-righteous, judgemental pricks.

The almost 2 billion catholics worldwide, or the folks at St. Paul's and St. Bart's in particular?


Having been raised Roman Catholic, it came as something as a shock when I realized what the Eucharist was. "Holy Communion" by devouring the flesh and blood of our Lord? Awesome!

When you go to mass every sunday for as long as you can remember, it all seems so normal until you start thinking about it. It wasn't until I was fifteen that mass started being a little bit weird, especially compared to my Protestant friends' services, which did not include robes, candles, altars, special chairs or anything remotely spooky or occult. Just lots of dippin' folks in water.

Another good thing about churches is the music. As noted above, you get some fine acoustics in cathedrals. Mass is almost always more fun if the church has an orchestra. Growing up, I always felt so bad for my Church of Christ friends, whose faith did not allow any instruments to be played during a service (no clapping either, as clapping is an instrument. Like "Hang on, I gotta tune my clap"). On the bright side, many of my friends were very talented singers and could whip out a hymn a capella at the drop of a hat.
 
 
SMS
22:40 / 21.12.05
"Holy Communion" by devouring the flesh and blood of our Lord? Awesome!

John 6:53
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

It might even be better than this. I have a pious teacher who tells me that the Greek reads as something more graphic than this — that we might translate the bit about eating the flesh as "munch on my bones and tear at my flesh." I've no idea how liberal that kind of translation would be, but I can't read that passage now without thinking about it.
 
 
Ganesh
08:52 / 22.12.05
I've always found looking at the floorplans of churches vaguely soothing, Grant, even if that one slightly tickles my long-buried adolescent male impulse to draw three spunk droplets shooting from the rounded glans-bit at the top.
 
 
Quantum
09:27 / 22.12.05
Grant, ta. What's the name of the elaborate decorative cover thing above the font? The Baptistery or something? The reason I ask is that the new Harry Rotter film had one over the 'goblet of fire' and the whole scene was very Catholic.
 
 
Eudaimonic.lvx
11:00 / 22.12.05
I find that Tibetan Buddhism does the same thing for me without all the misogyny, childfucking, inquisitions and stuff

Haha....... there is plenty of mucky stuff there too.

I attended a Catholic school between the ages of 11 and 18. I have great affection for the tradition, and not being raised a Catholic, have had plenty of impetus to contemplate it. I think there is a real difference between those who make up the Catholic church world-wide, and the Catholic church as a political institution. There are multiple points of view, dissent, syncretism etc, apart from the communication which comes from Rome.

To me its a mystery tradition, and the mass is one of the most powerful rituals ever conceived.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:04 / 22.12.05
If you consider the world as the body of christ, then everything you put in your mouth is christs flesh and blood. Everything you touch, see, smell and hear.

And everything has the buddah nature, especially the emptiness that is christs body.

paedophiles, lovers of children is perhaps a case of bad terminology, perhaps child abusers or child rapists is better terminology, can people that commit these crimes really be called lovers of children? The worse part is the sweeping it under the carpet of many institutions and local authorities, its not just the catholic church, but schools, scout and cub groups, other religous organisations and incestuous brutality. But really why define these criminals as lovers of children? when they are if anything the opposite, haters of innocence, corrupters. Perhaps thou this kind of discussion is best kept for another thread entirely.
 
 
Quantum
12:07 / 22.12.05
Perhaps it is.
 
 
Dead Megatron
12:52 / 22.12.05
You don't know what a catholic church/temple can be, until you see a baroque church. I am in brazil and we have a lot of those around here. The best ones are the ones where ALeijadinho worked (a 17th-century leper sculptor who hahad to tie his carving instruments to his hand, on the account of having no fingers). Truly superb and awe-inspiring. Lots of gold, and incense, and curved lines (much like tibetan budhism temples). There were times I had to leave one of those churchs because the energy flow was so intense it was making me dizzy
 
 
grant
14:45 / 22.12.05
One of my favorite cathedrals -- I've only seen photos, never been there -- has no plans and is still being built. By one man, basically. It's the Catedral Nuestra Señora del Pilar, built by Justo Gallego Martinez out of mostly recycled materials. It looks absolutely incredible.

He was a Trappist monk, but got booted out of the monastery after coming down with tuberculosis -- the abbot feared contagion. So he became a builder. Then he inherited some land from his parents... and started building.

The locals used to call it "catedral del loco" -- the crazy man's cathedral. Then it started to take shape, got featured in some TV ads, and started attracting visitors. Tourists? Pilgrims? Hard to say. Up to 1,000 people a day come to see the thing now. It's 86,000 square feet, with a dome 40 meters tall. And it's *pretty*.

He's 80 years old. He's spent 44 years building it, 10 hours a day, and expects to finish it by the time he's 85. He plans to will it to the Catholic church, but the local authorities aren't sure they can take it over -- because Martinez never pulled any permits and never built to any codes.
 
 
grant
15:11 / 22.12.05
Ganesh: I've always found looking at the floorplans of churches vaguely soothing, Grant, even if that one slightly tickles my long-buried adolescent male impulse to draw three spunk droplets shooting from the rounded glans-bit at the top.

And here I thought the steeple was the phallic bit....

Quantum: A baptistery is a room for baptisms, usually an octagon built around a font. It can also be the font itself. I'm sure the cover has a name, but I don't know it.

One of the things I've always been sort of curious about is the symbolism behind the knots on some priestly orders' cinctures (the ropes worn as belts). I can imagine some of the responses to an infodump on that, though.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
21:22 / 24.12.05
"munch on my bones and tear at my flesh."

IIRC, this recalls back to Dionysian rituals, which included among other things the tearing and devouring of the sacrifice and the drinking of wine.
 
 
Quantum
19:49 / 25.12.05
Did anyone go to midnight mass?
 
 
Shrug
22:50 / 25.12.05
I've been avoiding it successfully for the last few years Quants sorry, but I do remember it very well from years of attendance. It's really lengthy.
Apparently in Ye Olden Times (err about 50-60 years ago I think), while the masses were still conducted in Latin, the priest turned to face the holy host rather than address the congregation during service. It'd be nice to attend it performed like that (in Latin, with priest faced away) for a change.

Both of my parents being painfully Catholic (my father in fact being an ex-priest) attendance in church as a young 'un was mandatory. (This usually caused me to miss Ulysses 31 on Sunday morning so my level of resentment was high) But while the sermons after the first few repetitions became boring, the actual edifices exterior and interior decoration was a never ending source of fascination. Behind the altar in grand style was a stained glass depiction of the crucifixion scene. Two thieves lay on either side of a very wretched looking Jesus, tied rather than nailed, one repentent and consoling the other scornful. Both were pretty buff. Sometimes when bored, which was often, I used to count the individual panels of glass to pass time. Paintings illustrating the stations of the cross lined each sidewall, along with more stained glass renditions of saints eyes rolled back or cast aloft in presumed beatific agony and/or pleasure.
So definitely lots of distraction from monotonal psalms if you ever have to attend. We did get a replacement fire and brimstone type for a couple of weeks too, that was kind of fun.
 
 
SMS
02:46 / 26.12.05
Did anyone go to midnight mass?
Well, I’m not Catholic, but I helped lead four worship services Christmas Eve and preached Christmas morning.
 
 
grant
21:05 / 27.12.05
How'd you feel afterward?
 
 
SMS
22:58 / 27.12.05
After the last Christmas Eve service (the almost midnight almost mass), I felt pretty exhausted, but I also felt like these were pretty powerful services. Harpist, Choir, Communion, Prayer, and Candlelighting. I think these all gave me a general sense of being especially alive.
 
 
Shrug
13:47 / 11.01.06
Despite feeling that the new testament parables sometimes lacked punch I almost positively enjoyed the rosary. When visiting cousins we had to say it every night before bed-time and I always found it to be really dramatic. As well as using beads, you could use a ring with bobbles to count the various decades. The Joyful/Sorrowful/Luminous mysteries all good stuff.
"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!"
(There's such a rhythm to it.)
 
  
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