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NLP = Magick

 
 
Bear
11:45 / 31.01.02
Ok so like I said on another thread...(btw I posted this before on another group and it was quite interesting)..

anyway I bought some NLP tapes, listened through them and found some of the exercises very similar to invocation...example from memory about gaining confidence -

"think of a time you were confident in your mind, now picture I circle of light on the floor and stand in it, let yourself feel the confidence...now next time you need to feel confident imagine the circle of light on the floor"

ok so that wasn't it exactly but you get the idea...so thats very similar to magick methods right....

so me point is - should invocation be classed as "magick" or should it just be classed as straight forward psychology - or of course vise-versa.....

hope that makes sense, my mohawk is squint i can focus

I've heard allot of views on this just wondered what people in here though, I find it really interesting...
 
 
Glandmaster
12:17 / 31.01.02
Apparently its brain washing
 
 
Re-Set
12:17 / 31.01.02
Magic and science/psychology share essentially the same function: changing reality in accordance with will.
Science becomes magic when the scientists cease to be able to explain it.

[ 31-01-2002: Message edited by: Floats With Spider ]
 
 
ciarconn
12:59 / 31.01.02
NLP was partially basedin hypnotic techniques. It does have several parallels with different magick rituals.
I think it's because they both take advantage of the basic archetypal/iconic funcntions of the mind (one of the old NLP books even handles that idea, I do not remember, but it's called something like the linguistics of magic, or something. In the afternoon i'll post it right)
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:32 / 31.01.02
Hey, expressionless, whatever happened to the old NLP thread you started a few months ago?

I got into it more in the old thread but basically, I've never liked NLP. I see it more along the lines of brainwashing.
 
 
paw
14:33 / 31.01.02
to me nlp is the magick of the 21st century. I've studied the occult, especially chaos magick and have for instance gotten really interesting results with sigils but for me nlp wins out. coming from a background of study in the occult i too have noticed a hell of alot of similarities in the ideas taught by the two disciplines. i've found though that nlp is like the practice to say hine's or sherwins theory in that it delivers alot of the things that 'magick' promises. for example before nlp i attempted to compile a grimoire of personal demons as i believed this would be the first step towards a revolution of the self. I made very little head way with this approach until i came across nlp. as a result i have radically improved my understanding both of myself and of the world around me. i also have alot more confidence and my self image has similarly been modified for the better. i know these changes could never have been achieved if for instance i had continued exclusively studying chaos magick. i'm still interested in magick though and it's worth pointing out that many magickians actually incorporate nlp teachings in their invocation/evocational work.
 
 
cusm
14:34 / 31.01.02
Magick = change through will

I see two main types of this.

External: change of world. Change outside of the self. This includes any sort of "wishing" magic, be it through sigels, conjurations, prayer, direct energy work, or anything that is meant to 'make something happen' or to cause a change in another.

Internal: change of self. Reprogram the self, come to spiritual awareness, etc. Invocation and channeling use this, as does any ritual designed to bring about a change within, such as purging of internal demons, dedicating to a diety, or the creation/destruction of talismans which bind or remove bindings on your behavior. Sigels used to alter the self, grant power/abilities etc do this as well.

NLP fits squarely in this category, and I consider it an internal magickal art in this sense. However, when used on others, it can be seen as an external art as well, as you are using NLP as your tool to effect change in another. So either way, its magick, in the same sense that psychology is magick
 
 
Ierne
15:04 / 31.01.02
Here is that NLP thread expressionless started over in the Head Shop last year.


Sorry, this thread can no longer be found-- moderator
 
 
Bear
15:40 / 31.01.02
Thats Ierne for the old thread...NLP is just something I'm very interested in at the moment..something I'd like to take a bit further.. expressionless are you still looking into it - any good recommendations?
 
 
Glandmaster
18:03 / 31.01.02
Might be a good starting point...

Unless your all talking about the Natural Law Party!

Personaly I think the most esoteric thing about NLP is Dr Bandlers fingernails.

 
 
Naked Flame
18:46 / 31.01.02
very handy article there, Glandmaster. It reads a smidge paranoid, but lots of Blue Peter sticky-back plastic and squeezybottle mind alteration possibilities beckon...

There are a hell of a lot of NLP-variants and precursors that use the same sort of techniques, aren't there? Things like congitive therapy or creative visualisation. In a sense, I don't know why there's a need to prove NLP's status as a magical act: anything can be a magical act. That said, I don't find it hard to view a lot of NLP as being pretty mundane... but then I'm no expert. put it this way, if I can decide to make magic with a drum machine, I'm not exactly in a position to include anyone out.
 
 
ciarconn
22:57 / 31.01.02
I've got it here, the book is called the estucture of magic. Two volumes, and i only have the first.
It's by Bandler and Grinder.
This one basically explains "conjurations" as the programations one imposes to oneself on some crucial moments of life. And how that programation can be altered for one's benefit.

Yeah, a big problem with NLP is the "rockstar" complex of Bandler. But that's not a reason to prejudge NLP and throw it away.

There are some valuable techniques on it. Very similar to magic theoris from the beggining of the 20th century. Those bits of psychoanalitical interpretation of magic. Well, in a way, NLP is a psychological aplication of magickal techniques.
 
 
Seth
04:39 / 01.02.02
I found this old post from the Fictionsuit thread that relates to this subject:

quote: It’s not a new or particularly original thought, but the mapping and creating of separate identities could be seen as a particularly powerful form of neuro-linguitic programming. The logical progression from using individual techniques to target change in certain areas is to find a technique that can accomodate a spectrum of changes simultaneously. The new identity interacts with the identity/s that existed prior to its development, one or more identities becoming subsumed (or characteristics mingle and cross over).

As A.Machine’s post perfectly points out, you have to be careful how you resculpt yourself. These tools are only as good as the knowledge and character of the practitioner, which is why I questioned the lack of regulation on the therapy industry in this related Headshop thread (although these techniques don’t have to be used as therapy necessarily). These are not the kind of abilities you want to give to anyone irresponsible or unprepared.

I also agree that the past is pretty mutable if it exists only as memory. We’re in the business of consciously and unconsciously changing our memories everyday. Again this demands great responsibility. I only use it to try to get to the bottom of past experiences that I don’t understand, as a tool for finding the truth about myself and coming to terms with my past. I would say it’s best to make subtle changes to aid in self-growth, but I’d be interested to hear from anyone who’s successfully implemented a more radical overhaul of their memories. What did you change, how did you change it, and what were the advantages and disadvantages of doing it?


Interestingly enough, one of the few books I've read on the subject started with the famous Arthur C Clarke quote, "Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic." I think there's space in anyone's toolbag for a bit of NLP, and most practitioners of magic would be surprised to find out how long they'd been using similar or identical techniques.

Bear: My reading time is being taken up by other subjects right now, and the stuff I've actually read on NLP I probably wouldn't recommend (it was really dull).

The worst thing about NLP is the hype and delusions of Messianic descent that a lot of practitioners seem to cloak themselves in.

More on this later - I have to run off to work. Maybe we should post some more technique for people to comment on.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: expressionless ]
 
 
Tamayyurt
18:18 / 05.10.02
I've just read Quantum Psychology and I was wondering about NLP and Metaprograming. What exactly is it? How do you do it? Give me examples of techniques. What's a good book on the subject?

Also, for the age of the thread and mentions of even older threads about NLP, I get the impression a lot of you have been doing this for a while. What have been your results?
 
 
FinderWolf
21:12 / 05.10.02
I looked through Amazon.com's books on NLP a while back -- which would you recommend most? I noticed a few were out of print.
 
 
Sebastian
23:10 / 05.10.02
Impulsivead: I am just finishing that very same book also.

HunterWolf: I've just counted above 40 books about NLP here on my shelves, most of them read -and used- about five years back when I seriously thought I was going to dedicate my professional life to psychotherapy. I'll tell you the funny details some other time. I was living sort of separate lives. Anyway, if you ask about this, sort of I can tell.

Number 1:

The Structure of Magic Vol. 1 - heavy reading, but cracked my brains, just as Castaneda's books had done. The best, simply because it gives you the tools and the working mind-set that predates all that's been written and will ever be. Even if you read only this, it is so elemental that you will be compelled to apply it to just any situation with. You wanna know why people gets stucked into endless discussions and misunderstandings? Read this. If you are into linguistics like my brother and know bout Chomsky's grammar you'll either think this is plain bullshit -like my brother- or a wonderful neuro-application of it. You decide.

Number 2:

Words That Change Minds - not an introductory, but definitely one that I keep at the top of the list. Boring, but instructive. Impulsivead, this one pretends to address metaprograms, but its sort of focused for the business and work environments, you can extrapolate it of course. I say "pretends" because it only discusses very conditioning "metaprogramms" such as how you usually decide what to do or what to eat or how you tie your shoes, not actually how you decide which hole you are going to pump with your Willy, which is supposeddly programmed in another "circuit" -go read Prometheus Rising or chapter 18 of Quantum Psychology.

Number 3: Mind-Lines: Lines To Change Minds -are you beginning to see a pattern here in the titles?-, by Michael Hall and Bob Bodenhamer - I would say "advanced", but maybe it is more accessible to any of you than I can figure. Invaluable, for sure. Destroy the meaning of anyhting that gets into words. Make anybody uncomfortable each time they open their mouth in front of you. Get all of your friends to hate you! By the way, maybe it would be better to jump number 2 for this, but who knows anyway.


HunterWolf, if you are going to read any of the above, I definitely suggest you sort of condiment the reading with any of the seminar trascripts books in the following order:

1) Trance-Formations or Frogs Into Princess
2) Reframing
3) Using Your Brain - For a Change

These all rock. Reframing is maybe too therapy focused, but it is very entertaining, and all are thought provoking. These books also emphasize rapport (how you actually get to destroy every uttered sentence without the utterer wishing to kill you), which is sort of not much over toned in the others.

Last book I got was Turtles All The Way Down, but I was already out of topic and didn't read much of it. By the way, I don't die in a cause for any of them, except maybe for Structure of Magic, so be read to scan for the crap, because there is a lot of self-self-promoting in the texts that has really no much sense at all.

And one of these days I'll set up a consultancy -oh, boy, there I go again.

Last thing, even if they are out of print at amazon, they'll get them for you, or google/yahoo search for the titles, these titles are availabe at many book stores, there is one in particular based in Florida that has an impressive load of titles mainly devoted to hypnosis, I think it was something like "trance.com", also check NLP related sites.

My card use to read... nah, I'm not going into that.
 
 
penitentvandal
08:38 / 06.10.02
Hmm. NLP just never seemed to work for me - it's too conventional, and I like my magic weird. Basically unless I'm off my face chanting barbaric invocations in my best Merlin-in-Excalibur voice it doesn't seem to work.

However - I did find the stuff on rapport, body language, and eye-accessing queues useful, and I seem to have somehow subconsciously picked up an ability to create rapport with people by matching their body language, posture, speech patterns, etc. Whether this is a result of reading books on NLP or of having a good sense of empathy and a musical ear I can't really judge.

I have worked some pretty hefty memory-alteration, myself. I don't want to go into detail, but it definitely worked, which is why I'm rockin' the 'VV2.0' moniker these days.

Retroactive magic is one of those things you don't understand until after you've actually DONE it...Like a lot in this game, really.

Oh, and as to Bandler...BLACK nail varnish? Bitch, PLEASE, that is SO passe...
 
 
Sebastian
17:31 / 06.10.02
You know, I think NLP is of no use to any magickian in a stricty magickal sense.

I did find the stuff on rapport, body language, and eye-accessing queues useful, and I seem to have somehow subconsciously picked up an ability to create rapport with people by matching their body language, posture, speech patterns, etc. Whether this is a result of reading books on NLP or of having a good sense of empathy and a musical ear I can't really judge.

Precisely. NLP is not a "something" you can learn, its rather an ongoing process that is already going on and of which you become aware of, like your own phisiology. Actually it is ridiculous to get a registration to own the name of it as Bandler has, it is like if the guy describing cardiology would trademark the term "cardiology" and only he could use it, even though the heart was there before, just like neuro-linguistic-programs were.
 
 
eye landed
22:21 / 06.10.02
wow...i think i'm experiencing some kind of developmental crisis. after spending a long time trying to find out what NLP stands for (neuro-linguistic programming), i discovered something interesting: i own the structure of magic I and II and i didn't even know it. i found first-editions for a dollar (canadian) each a couple years back, and bought them because they had the word "magic" in the titles. i never even read beyond the introduction. now i'm too busy with school to read them for a couple months.

anyhow, what are the NLP tapes? are they audio-hypnosis? and what do they teach at the NLP seminars (the ones that cost thousands of dollars)?

lastly, does anyone have any reccomendations (or good web links) on milton erickson? there's nothing at my library, and i don't like to buy totally blind.

from my tiny knowledge base, NLP doesn't seem to be magic (i'm not sure what the stance is on the "k" around here). it seems to me that if you know how something works, it ceases to be magic. magic is about trusting the kosmos (or god or whatever) and moving energy to and from oneself and the non-self. NLP may be an attempt to explain certain magic, but so is everything else science has ever done.

~arcangelo~
favente deo supero
 
 
Tamayyurt
01:14 / 10.10.02
anyhow, what are the NLP tapes? are they audio-hypnosis?

Yeah, and what about listening these tapes while on weed or acid?

(note: I've never even done acid so don't think I'm one of these people that uses drugs as a short cut. Further note: Not that I wouldn't I've just never gotten my hands on hallucinogens.)
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
04:14 / 10.10.02
As a funny aside to this conversation...

I was browsing through THE ACTION HERO'S SURVIVAL GUIDE at the bookstore earlier today and saw a chapter on "How to do The Jedi Mind Trick". It drops immeadately into a quick cutely illustrated bit on NLP. Instructing the hero in brief on mirroring, rapport and other bits.
 
 
Bear
07:53 / 10.10.02
Well thats a blast from the past...

The tapes are great, various exercises to follow. They're more self help than anything though I think, how to change your feelings about bad experiences from your past.

I've only listened to them once though, I let someone "borrow" them and haven't seen them since.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
06:03 / 17.10.02
That's funny–yesterday I bought a book called "Sourcebook of Magic" on NLP. It just breaks down the NLP programs themselves. Lately I've been very in this mindset of using magick, etc. to really improve my life instead of just experimenting with it. Funny thing is I just moved into a new house and one of the previous tenants left some Anthony Robbins books so I started reading them for a laugh–that guy is quite the magician.

Sean–personal demons–did you do this working from Ray Sherwin's books? I've been idly beginning to do this also–why did you find the experiment lacking?
 
 
Seth
09:13 / 20.11.02
Jamming NLP

Apologies for War and Peace.

As I'm on a bit of a psychic self-defense vibe this morning (and poorly, thus looking for shit to do), I thought I'd share some of my thoughts on being resistant to NLP. One way I found helpful was to try to anticipate the practitioner's expectations of me and deliberately mis-match the results they felt they required. Last time I tried this was in church, of all places. There was a visiting *prophetic minstry* that evening, and I'd decided to go along to check out what the fuss was about, as my friends in leadership had been using them to provide input into what they were doing for the last year or so. He'd also given a couple of prophecies to some friends of mine, a couple of whom had no prior experience of that kind of thing. The feedback I'd heard left me feeling a few warning signals: the man seemed to talk in non-specifics, and seemed to want to flatter the subject rather than edify.

(Quick glossary entry: Christian prophecy is the strand of the charismata that deals with telling a person what God needs them to hear at any given moment in time. It can refer to people, situations, thoughts or places from their past, present or future. It can also include what may purely be timely encouragement or advice. It's usually done unaided by any external object or framework, although it can be. When I was trained, I was taught not to focus on the subject for guidance from their actions or reactions, as their responses can often be misleading. And yes, this is an area that is fraught with dangers, as you've probably picked up by now.)

I quickly picked up that the guy was using NLP as opposed to prophecy. Not that there's anything wrong with that per se, the problem was that he was engaged in the practise of the former under the guise of the latter. Perhaps he just didn't know the difference, and thought that what he was doing was prophetic. What interested me first of all was his preamble, priming the congregation. I didn't like it one bit, it felt manipulative from the outset. I ran something like this:

"I know that you've had prophetic ministries who have come here before, and that many of you have struggled with the outworking of what they've said. You may not have seen those things come to pass. Many people have given the impression that God moves in waves, and that has a tendency to leave some people behind, as not everyone will be able to catch every wave that comes along. Now, I know that the movement of God is more like a stream, in constant motion, which can leave no-one behind. What's more, when you recognise that God's actions are like a stream, it means that there can be no importance placed on high profile ministries, that we're all just people invlved in the same movement of God, all equal. Now, I'd like everyone who wants to do business with God to come to the front of the hall."

Translation:

"Access a memory of disapointment with what you've been told is prophecy. I'm not going to be specific: you decide. Remember how it made you feel. These people who did *that* to you don't understand the ways of God, and their misunderstanding has hurt you. I'm not like them, and I'm here to do something better than they did. I do understand the ways of God, and it's something that can include you all. However, there's nothing special about me, and my humility reinforces that I'm on your side. Oh, and by asking you to come forward if you want to do business with God, I've placed an artificial option before you. It would be theologically wrong to respond in the negative and stay where you are if you're a Christian. Now come up here where I can notice every tiny move you make, every sound you make."

So he's already set everyone up before he's started. Everyone is right where he wants them, making him appear to be a successful ministry when all he's done is set them an option that can't be refused. Everyone present has a memory to the fore that he can interact with using predicates that match their representational systems, and everyone's now so close that he can observe their body language with total accuarcy.

My first means of jamming him was to stay at the back of the meeting when he asked everyone to come forward. I'd deliberately contructed my body language to appear as though I was deep in some kind of ecstatic experience (which actually wasn't far from the truth, as I'd had a great time in the meeting up to that point). The minister's immediate response was to attempt to force me into the role that he expected of the rest of the congregation. He specifically asked me to come to the front with everyone else: again, it was a command that can't be answered in the negative, as it would have been disruptive to the meeting (especially considering that everyone there - with the possible exception of the minister himself - knew that I was the son of one of England's most respected prophetic ministries). I may have observed what appears to be manipulation on a mass scale, but I couldn't presuppose that the visiting minister was aware of that, or that it was impossible for him to do any good using those tactics. I've grown accustomed to God deciding to be God no matter how determined individuals are on screwing things up.

So I came to the front. Perhaps I should have made a point of refusing on principle. After all, anyone who had been trained in prophecy would have known to respect my decision to remain where I was. Forcing me to respond is bad etiquete and verging on an abuse of my freedom. If he genuinely felt that he had something important for me to hear the correct protocol would have been to approach me in private after the meeting and ask my permission before delivering it. For some reason he didn't do that, and my instinct told me that it was because he had nothing for me (yet), that he had some internal need to be the dominant factor over everyone's individual experience of God, and that he needed me to be closer so that he could suss me out.

He asked me to stand in a line with three other people that God specifically wanted to talk to that evening. I put up another layer of defense, and again used body language to do it. I smiled a serene little half smile, looking perfectly at peace, all the while moving my clasped hands gently in time to the rhythm of the band (interestingly enough I had a profound experience that evening, largely because of a synchronicity between the word of a song that the band was singing and my internal experience. A powerful experience that helped me a lot, and something that had everything to do with my own ability to access the sacred rather than anything done by the visitor). The visiting minister then proceeded to give "prophecy" to everyone in the line, apart from me. Whenever he reached me he would say a few words and pass me by. I hadn't broken my posture or my poker face, and he seemed to be getting put off. The words he gave the others were entirely non-specific in the way that process-oriented therapists are encouraged to model. I have a strong suspicion that he realised that he'd have to jump in the deep end with me and not use my body language for cues. When he finally did overcome his fear of "flying blind" he placed his hands on top of mine, to prevent the rhythmic movements that were clearly disrupting his concentration.

I have to apologise for the anticlimax here, as I made a point of not listening to a word he said. I have no respect for the words of an untrained man delivering process therapy and mass hypnosis under the guise of prophecy, breaking etiquette like a rank amatuer with something to prove (he may well have known who I was, something I'd hope to avoid). I have a surplus of "genuine" prophetic input into my life already. What I did manage to pick up on were that he again used process oriented language, giving nothing specific. The meeting was recorded, and I could probably obtain a transcript if anyone here is interested in picking apart the linguistic techniques. I've probably bored you enough already, but if you'd like to continue we probably can after I make a couple of phone calls.

Finally a point I'd like help with (Sebastian, come on down). The following section of Frogs into Princes really interested me: "You may think that the word "think" is one represenational system. It's not. The words "think, understand, be aware of, believe, sense, know, " are all unspecified. Do not use those word because the response you get will be random." Italics theirs. I'd probably add words like "imagine," "intuit," and "perceive" to that list (although the latter has more of a traditional connection with a visual representational system). How can we use these to create a language style to defend against NLP practitioners?
 
 
illmatic
09:18 / 20.11.02
Quick note - I've just nipped down from a training session at work to use my pc, and I'm doing NLP right now!
It's not called that but can still recognise some of the ideas = more later.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
18:33 / 20.11.02
I'm a little confused: Is there a divide in the literature between NLP-upon-others and NLP-upon-oneself, or is it all the same techniques applied in different directions?
 
 
Perfect Tommy
18:36 / 20.11.02
...and, of course, what's the sexy literature on each? I know GM plugged a book in Invisible Ink one time, but I got it borrowed away and vanished before I read very much of it.
 
 
Sebastian
19:35 / 20.11.02
You may think that the word "think" is one represenational system. It's not.

Those are process words, they trigger whatever strategy to you already have to access whatever is specified next. They are useful, because if a guy usually "hears" his mommy's voice in his mind instead of "looking" at her, and you say "you are now looking at your mother", you'll loose the pacing and rapport. If you say "you are now thinking about your mother" you are still pacing, unsepecifiedly pacing, because "think" is whatever you do with any of your inner senses, be it listen, see, touch.

There is an NLP that's not in the books. It has to do with the most troublesome and fascinating aspect of any study of consciousness. For those heavily interested, it is sort of summarised here: Sensation's Ghost - The Non-Sensory "Fringe" of Consciousness .

Basically, the representational systems are not just five: auditory, visual, gustatory, tactile (including propioceptive and visceral) an olphactory. The easiest way to simplify it is that we have a non-sensory representational system, through which we perceive non-sensory sensations (sensations not derived from the anatomically and scientifically described senses).

If you repeat a word several times in a row, you'll find out that the sound, the phoneme, becomes dettached from "something" that is now lost, and so it becomes plain laryngeal sound. That thing lost is actually the "meaning". And how the hell you know it has "lost the meaning"? Simply because now it does not appear to make any "sense", the "sensation" of a meaning is no longer attached to that laryngeal sound sequence. And I warantee you'll hardly find where the hell was this sensation being "felt".

This can be extrapolated to every word you know, of course, and you'll realise that a "word" is actually an overlooked synesthesia of a phoneme and a sensation that is not at all represented through the senses. Of course, this sensation can be "traced back", so that you can explain to how you actually did get to the "meaning" of the word and how you constructed that sensation, but every time you speak or listen, you don't go through this process, you simply rely on the ever present sensation that "words and sentences make sense". Take your own name for example. It probably "means" nothing, like mine, but you instantly "feel" they are calling you when they say it.
 
 
grant
20:29 / 20.11.02
Weird - I wonder if that was what Roland Barthes was getting at with The Third Meaning.

first being literal, second being metaphoric/allegorical, third being... significant, but in some way that can't be described.

he was using it when talking about film stills - certain stills had obvious meanings, and a few of those had "meaning" that was neither literal (what the frame showed) or metaphorical (what the image symbolized).
 
 
Sebastian
20:48 / 20.11.02
Oh, Grant, everybody keeps telling me I should read Barthes, now I see why. I woul love it.

In the line of what I wrote above, "obviousness" and "meaning", are non-sensory sensations attached to some sensory sensation, images in the case of cinema. Of course, they are very "diffuse" sensations, and nobody has ever told us how we "sense" them, but sensations nonetheless, Try to grasp them, and you get another handfull of them. Actually, when you try to grasp them, you are bombarded with "words" that are, of course, phonemes attached to more sensations. From here, a whole and lovable theory on accessing meaning thorugh semantic nodes is developed.

Synesthesia. That's all the secret. A "word" is a synesthesia of a phoneme and a sensation. Actually, when you look at this words, you probalby also experience a synesthesia. Can you look at the letter "A" without hearing its sound in your mind?

And can you look at it without "knowing" it is a "letter"?

See? We are fairly, damned good, meticulously wired, either to our advantage or someone else's.
 
  
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