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The New Liberal Imperialism

 
 
Fist Fun
14:03 / 12.12.05
This article from 2002 interested me:

Some noteworthy bits:

"The challenge to the postmodern world is to get used to the idea of double standards. Among ourselves, we operate on the basis of laws and open cooperative security. But when dealing with more old-fashioned kinds of states outside the postmodern continent of Europe, we need to revert to the rougher methods of an earlier era - force, pre-emptive attack, deception, whatever is necessary to deal with those who still live in the nineteenth century world of every state for itself. Among ourselves, we keep the law but when we are operating in the jungle, we must also use the laws of the jungle. In the prolonged period of peace in Europe, there has been a temptation to neglect our defences, both physical and psychological. This represents one of the great dangers of the postmodern state."

<->

"How should we deal with the pre-modern chaos? To become involved in a zone of chaos is risky; if the intervention is prolonged it may become unsustainable in public opinion; if the intervention is unsuccessful it may be damaging to the government that ordered it. But the risks of letting countries rot, as the West did Afghanistan, may be even greater.

What form should intervention take? The most logical way to deal with chaos, and the one most employed in the past is colonisation. But colonisation is unacceptable to postmodern states (and, as it happens, to some modern states too). It is precisely because of the death of imperialism that we are seeing the emergence of the pre-modern world. Empire and imperialism are words that have become a form of abuse in the postmodern world. Today, there are no colonial powers willing to take on the job, though the opportunities, perhaps even the need for colonisation is as great as it ever was in the nineteenth century. Those left out of the global economy risk falling into a vicious circle. Weak government means disorder and that means falling investment. In the 1950s, South Korea had a lower GNP per head than Zambia: the one has achieved membership of the global economy, the other has not.

All the conditions for imperialism are there, but both the supply and demand for imperialism have dried up. And yet the weak still need the strong and the strong still need an orderly world. A world in which the efficient and well governed export stability and liberty, and which is open for investment and growth - all of this seems eminently desirable.

What is needed then is a new kind of imperialism, one acceptable to a world of human rights and cosmopolitan values. We can already discern its outline: an imperialism which, like all imperialism, aims to bring order and organisation but which rests today on the voluntary principle."
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
23:15 / 12.12.05
But when dealing with more old-fashioned kinds of states outside the postmodern continent of Europe, we need to revert to the rougher methods of an earlier era - force, pre-emptive attack, deception, whatever is necessary to deal with those who still live in the nineteenth century world of every state for itself.

That smacks of the "white man's burden" to me. We the postmodern societies, who've somehow reached this plateau of self-awareness, have deigned to take our kid gloves off to deal with the savages?
In my opinion the whole article is just Imperialism pure and simple.
Just with a bit of spin.
Written by an ex-trot who secretly likes Leo Strauss.
 
 
Slim
01:55 / 13.12.05
Oh, I dunno. I think it may be more complicated than that, inchoate. But I'm not sure it's a discussion I should get into right now.

That article was a forerunner to The Breaking of Nations,which expands on those ideas. I must confess that I didn't read all of it as I'm not a big fan of his writing.

And in case some didn't know, Robert Cooper has a position within the EU. The title escapes me but he might be Javier Solana's second-in-command. That's pretty high up there.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
18:37 / 13.12.05
Slim I stand by what I wrote. I think it's naive to assume the Great Game ever ended. From 1945 to 1989 it was primarily bipolar but it was always there. American policy promoted 'low intensity conflict' over invasions, before Iraq, but it was still economic/political colonialism.
Nothing has changed. Teh new liberal imperialism is another pitch of business-as-usual.

Oh, I dunno. I think it may be more complicated than that, inchoate. But I'm not sure it's a discussion I should get into right now.

I'd like to hear your opinion.
 
 
Fist Fun
19:03 / 13.12.05
Well the author does state that:

"Empire and imperialism are words that have become a form of abuse in the postmodern world."

So he is saying that imperialism isn't necessarily bad. What if it helps build a stable government and strong economy? What if it lays foundations for democracy and respect of human rights?
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
19:22 / 13.12.05
Who will lay the "foundations for democracy and respect of human rights"?
The USA? Secret prisons, Guantanamo Bay, capital punishment and torture America?
 
 
Fist Fun
11:00 / 14.12.05
That isn't what I wanted to talk about here. The US is an example of a state that practices democracy and has respect for human rights. Like anything it isn't going to be flawless but if you compare it with, say, Iraq under Saddam there is a contrast there.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:10 / 14.12.05
and has respect for human rights.

Only with regards to it's own citizens. It has been demonstrated time and again in recent history that the US government considers human rights to be something of an obstacle when it comes to dealing with suspected terrorists.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:40 / 14.12.05
On the subject of the US having respect for the human rights of its own citizens... oh why make a list when you can just link to the Amnesty page?
 
 
Slim
17:06 / 14.12.05
Those are exceptions to the norm, Nina.

So he is saying that imperialism isn't necessarily bad. What if it helps build a stable government and strong economy? What if it lays foundations for democracy and respect of human rights?

If you're referring to instilling those qualities in a pre-modern state where the state system has broken down then I would say yes, that is an okay idea. But is that even possible? What happens when stability and democracy are not compatible?
 
 
Fist Fun
09:11 / 15.12.05
I agree that those are exceptions. American foreign policy does rest on ideals of democracy and liberty ... and self-interest.

If you agree that democracy and human rights are for the common good then isn't it the duty of powerful states to spread that good? If so are some methods more acceptable than others? War, economic sanctions, sporting boycott.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
08:26 / 16.12.05
I agree that those are exceptions. American foreign policy does rest on ideals of democracy and liberty ... and self-interest.

The reality of American foreign policy is naked self-interest, covered with the figleaf of democracy and liberty.

Harold Pinter said this better than I could.
The United States supported and in many cases engendered every right wing military dictatorship in the world after the end of the Second World War. I refer to Indonesia, Greece, Uruguay, Brazil, Paraguay, Haiti, Turkey, the Philippines, Guatemala, El Salvador, and, of course, Chile. The horror the United States inflicted upon Chile in 1973 can never be purged and can never be forgiven.

Have you read The Politics of Heroin: CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade, Afghanistan, Southeast Asia, Central America, Columbia by Alfred W. McCoy?

And then there's the Japanese American internment.

This is all about Might is Right and the strong telling the weak what to do. The Ideals of Democracy and Liberty are not being put into Practice.
 
 
sleazenation
11:00 / 16.12.05
American foreign policy does rest on ideals of democracy and liberty ... and self-interest.

Well, the current issue of the US foreign policy bible Foreign Affairs has an interesting article entitled Base Politics(only a sample of which is currently available online). The article touches on this thorny issues of the US's promotion of democracy and liberty and how these ideals are undermind in various practical and ideoligcal ways by its decisions to set up US bases in non-democratic states for strategic reasons.

Which kind of brings us to a point where self-interest is seen as a pre-eminent consideration over and above the lofty ideals of democracy and liberty. This isn't to knock self-interest, but it is something that I think needs to be acknowledged having long served as the primary drive, arguably for every living thing in existence. From that point we can move on to arguements that liberty and democracy are values that benefit all societies and help build a more stable world and market, but that discussion is perhaps a little outside the remit of this thread...
 
  
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