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When Air Marshals Attack

sleazenation

23:30 / 07.12.05

I was planning on giving this thread a less flippant title, but nothing better really came to mind...

So, yes Air Marshals are reported to have killed a man in a plane at Miami airport... details here...

From these initial reports it looks like the marshals have shot a mentally ill man who used "threatening words".

So, what do people make of this? Does the case bear any comparison to the shooting of Jean Charles De Menezes? Will there be a backlash against gun-carrying air marshals?

01:29 / 08.12.05

I've only read early reports, but it does seem a little troubling that a guy who had already run off the plane, followed by his desparate-sounding wife shouting "my husband! my husband!" would be shot five times.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

02:56 / 08.12.05

officials say so far there is no hint of any links to terrorism

Not too similar to Menezes in one respect then- remember how long it took the cops to admit there was no link to terrorism in that one?

pointless & uncalled for

08:14 / 08.12.05

A man who claimed to have a bomb on board an American Airlines plane in Miami has been shot dead by US air marshals, officials say.
Rigoberto Alpizar, a 44-year-old US citizen, was killed in the air bridge after running out of the plane pursued by marshals who had broken their cover.

No bomb was found on Mr Alpizar whose wife had tried to explain he had a mental illness, one witness said.

If this is an accurate summation of the events as they occured then the similarities with the de Menezes case aren't likely to run that deep.

This doesn't condone the actions of the officers involved but I think that it's quite clear that they were put in a very different sitation to those involved in the shooting at Stockwell.

sleazenation

08:31 / 08.12.05

Having been warned by the wife that her husban was mentally ill does that make the air marshal's actions more justified than those ofthe people that shot Mr De Menezes or less?

Ganesh

09:00 / 08.12.05

"Mental illness" can cover a number of bases. Anyone know anything more specific?

Evil Scientist

09:46 / 08.12.05

Ganesh. According to the BBC report he was bi-polar.

Interesting use of language by the authorities there.

As he was attempting to evade them, his actions caused the FAMs to fire shots, and in fact he is deceased.

Puts the responsibility squarely on the dead man's shoulders.

Still, this goes back to what we were discussing in the wake of the De Menenzes shooting. The officers in question are trained to shoot if they believe there is a threat. Just because someone is shouting that the target is mentally ill it doesn't necessarily follow that he is.

Think I'll be checking out Fox News tonight and see what the propaganda channels saying about this.

pointless & uncalled for

10:08 / 08.12.05

Having been warned by the wife that her husban was mentally ill does that make the air marshal's actions more justified than those of the people that shot Mr De Menezes or less?

I'm not really inclined to put these two incidents on the same field and play the more justified/less justified game. These are a different set of justifications and right or wrong they're incredibly difficult to correlate against each other. Furthermore the amount of information that we have to view in this instance is significantly less than that which we have from the de Menezes case, much of which comes from hindsight.

Slim

11:39 / 08.12.05

This Yahoo story puts in a slightly different light than the BBC one:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051208/ap_on_re_us/airplane_shooting

I think it's tragic but I don't blame the air marshal. The man hinted that he had a bomb and then ran off the plane, disobeying orders. According to the story, he was shot when he "apparently reached into his bag." If you claim to have a bomb in your bag, run away from authorities and then reach into said bag, I would have to say that 9 times out of 10, you're going to get shot. I understand that a woman on the plane was shouting that he was mentally ill, but A) that's not exactly comforting information and B) it's possible that in all the confusion the air marshal wasn't even paying attention to her. It's unfortunate.

Slim

11:40 / 08.12.05

And I'm operating under the assumption that the reports are accurate, which is always a dicey position to take.

w1rebaby

12:03 / 08.12.05

Particularly as none of the witnesses seem to mention that he said anything at all about a bomb. Just the official statement.

grant

18:26 / 08.12.05

Actually, there was a woman on NPR this morning who'd been on the plane and said she was terrified -- the guy had been running up and down the aisle talking about how he had a bomb, his wife was running after him shouting about how he'd forgotten his meds, and the FAMs were shouting at him to get his hands where they could see 'em. To paraphrase.

Then he headed for the gangway.

I don't think it's comparable at all to the Underground shooting.

grant

18:38 / 08.12.05

OK, I just listened to the piece again, and the witness doesn't mention the bomb -- just that a commotion broke out, the man started running around and then four or five shots were fired.

The fed spokesman quoted in that piece even says Alpizar "said that... words to the effect of he had a bomb." I don't know what that means.

And this eyewitness tells Time that nobody said anything about a bomb. I don't know -- was the guy talking Spanish part of the time?

Nik

19:41 / 08.12.05

As I understand it the officials are not saying that he said he had a bomb, but that he "uttered threatening words that included a sentence to the effect that he had a bomb." It doesn't say what he uttered exactly, but for example, if he said something to the effect that he was going to blow something (or himself)up, that would be equivalent to saying he had a bomb.

The wife saying he is ill and off his medication could go either way. It could mean he is not a threat but just appears to be or that he is a threat - even if he normally wouldn't be - because of the illness and lack of meds.

P. Horus Rhacoid

20:01 / 08.12.05

Evil Scientist: If you missed it, Bill O'Reilly at least is, predictably, being a jackass.

Foxnews.com is blaming the victim more subtly, but they're doing it.

Looks like some of the shouting might in fact have been in Spanish, grant.

Something I'm slightly confused about- all the earlier articles said that he had made it out of the plane onto the runway, but the Time article makes it sound like he was on the plane when he was shot- are there conflicting accounts or am I just misinterpreting the Time article? I feel like where he was would make a significant difference in how the marshalls would/should react to him- ie whether or not he was in the middle of a crowd of people, as he would have been had he still been on the plane when they shot him.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

07:13 / 09.12.05

James Bauer, the agent in charge of the Federal Air Marshal Service field office in Miami, said that before Mr Alpizar ran off the plane he had "uttered threatening words that included a sentence to the effect that he had a bomb".

But several passengers, including Mike Beshears, said they did not hear Mr Alpizar say anything. "He just was in a hurry and exited the plane," he said.

As usual, different witnesses are claiming different things. But witness statements in themselves are often unreliable- remember that guy interviewed after the Menezes killing (but before they realised they'd got the wrong man) who swore blind that Menezes had not only been wearing a heavy coat but that there had been wires sticking out of it?

sleazenation

10:20 / 09.12.05

But surely the point was that the eyewitness wasn't mistaken in what he saw, namely a man hin a heavy jacket with wires vaulting over a security barrier. Where the witness was mistaken was in thinking the person he saw vaulting the barrier De Menezes.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

10:35 / 09.12.05

Well, he did say it was that guy he saw being shot. Anyway, that's just an example of witness unreliability, so pick another one if you want!

What I'm saying is, in a situation like this, it's pretty easy to lose track of what's going on- even if you're not the guy doing the shooting (who could be accused of having reason for reporting things in a certain way) you're gonna be fairly freaked out.

Morpheus

21:42 / 10.12.05

5 shots!! that man was more then freaked out...he was pissed. Just how would someone get on the plane in the first place with a bomb? Did we stop cheaking bagage?

I did like how they blew up the bag on the runway for everyone to see, these guys are real pros.

Coughdamagecontrolcough

Slim

23:06 / 10.12.05

They are indeed "real pros," Morpheus, because blowing up the bag is done regularly. Not three weeks ago Pittsburgh policeman blew up a suspicious backage that was sitting outside a bar. I very much doubt they did it for any reason other than that it's standard procedure.

I think that given the facts that have been so far reported, the air marshals haven't done anything wrong. As always, this may be subject to change.

Morpheus

19:03 / 12.12.05

Slim, you are a dupe...

Do you throw it on the runway like they did right next to the plane.
The Marshalls did everything wrong as far as I could see.
But, you seem to think that they can do no wrong. How wrong do you have to be? Maybe they should have shot everyone on that plane...just to make sure.

Slim

22:44 / 12.12.05

You're engaging in a bit of wishful thinking there, Morpheus.

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