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Charles Burns' Black Hole

 
  

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sleazenation
16:18 / 05.12.05
I’m surprised that no-one appears to be talking about Charles Burns graphic novel/comic series Black Hole. It has recently been collected by Random House under their Pantheon and Jonathan Cape imprints and, I believe, Fantagraphics.

It’s a coming of age tale laced with body horror set in the early seventies and I’m keen to see what other people made of it…
 
 
tickspeak
18:22 / 05.12.05
I borrowed the first issue from a friend and thought it was phenomenal. I'd only read Big Baby by Burns in the past, which is pretty good, but Black Hole blew me away. As soon as I'm no longer broke and starving, the collected Black Hole is at the top of my list. I was especially impressed with the book's honesty regarding adolescent sexuality and the terrors therein--and he draws grotesques better than Clowes even. Highly highly recommended if you're at all into horror.
 
 
doyoufeelloved
18:26 / 05.12.05
Just recently picked up the hardcover and read the whole thing in a night. It held together as a story better than I was expecting, having read one isolated floppy issue of it years ago, but I still wouldn't put it in the Top 10 Comics Evar list, like TIME did. Visually, it's obviously spectacular -- mfer can DRAW -- and the writing is certainly a cut above a lot of similar writer/artists, but it didn't really jam an icepick into my heart or anything. It paled in comparison to BONE, which I had just read the one-volume edition of earlier that month. That shit stunned the hell out of me, having only had a similar one-issue exposure to it before. Sure, they're kind of apples and oranges, but.

It's definitely worth reading for anyone who hasn't read it, though. And I should maybe go back through it again in the future, since I was half-crazed with exhaustion when I read it.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:10 / 05.12.05
It's wonderful, is my basic reaction.
I read about the first five when I was working at F*R*B*DD*N PL*N*T, then I invoked my "Alan Moore rule"- DON'T get too into a comic that may never get finished.

Bought the lot about three months ago (for about tbirty quid! if I'd only known there'd be a collected book for about fifteen...) and yes. Yes yes yes.

Black Hole is one of my favourite series of... well, ever. Different media taken into account, it's really the comics equivalent of Lynch, in his "Happy Days... but FUCKED" stages. To me, it nails teenage paranoia, and is lovely, frightening and dreamlike all at the same time.

I'll post more when I'm not so drunk, but YES. Black Hole is one of those comics that reminds me why I like comics.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
00:41 / 06.12.05
YES! This is one of the titles I'd always looked at and never bought, largely because I couldn't find most of the back issues of.

*hurries off to buy the trade*
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
13:03 / 06.12.05
I bought a copy of this the other week. I haven't gotten around to reading it yet, because I am so daunted by the wonderful presentation and design that I am fearful of overloading my brain. It is one of the loveliest books I have held in myne hand.

Maybe as a winter-time treat...
 
 
A fall of geckos
13:16 / 06.12.05
I'm another who has a copy, but hasn't yet read it.

What I’ve seen of this reminds me of Junji Ito's mangas – Uzumaki etc... Probably because of the focus on body horror as a metaphor for adolescence – something that Ito makes much use of in his work. I’ve also heard people compare Black Hole to David Lynch and early Cronenberg.

Will post more once I’ve read this.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
18:47 / 06.12.05
A beautiful, weird paen to teenage lust and longing, and a brilliant evocation of lost summers. And a thoroughly unsettling horror story quite unlike anything out there. I enjoyed this far more than Burns' 50's schtick, mainly because I cared about the characters - it felt less of an exercise in retrostalgia. TBH if anyone wants a big saucy Xmas gift to keep you going through Boxing Day this should do the trick. Awesome stuff.
 
 
The Falcon
20:39 / 06.12.05
Yeah, I've been weighing up whether to get this beast since it came out. I remember noticing, and loving, the cover of the last issue when it came out.

Barbelith tips it.

Did Burns or an imitator do those 'Adenoids', or whatever they were called - mints, anyway, ad strips? Verry similar style.
 
 
sleazenation
00:01 / 07.12.05
It's interesting to see so many positive comments on this.

I Picked up the first issue of Black hole when it was first published over a decade ago and it didn't really do much for me. I'm not entirely sure why.

Over the years a number of people have recommended the series, So I resolved to give the whole thing another go when it was collected. And you know what? It still didn't do much for me, and again, I'm attempting to puzzel-out why.

The teen romance/US high school setting has never appealed to me, I think this is one of the reasons that Buffy never really caught me when it started. But then again I do like body horror stuff.

Burns inky oil-slick art isn't necessarily to my taste, but there wasn't anything that struck me as actively irritating about.

I guess what disappointed me most was the story. It seemed so slight, inconsequential and ill-thoughtout. Maybe I'm missing something. From the first issue I got the whole STD/teen plague thing analong with the 'sexual awakening as nightmare' motif. I was waiting for it to go somewhere with the idea, but it didn't, it just meandered along beating us around the head with variations on the theme of 'adolesence is a frightening/exciting/dangerous time' until three quarters of the way through we got a little bit of pointless serial killer thrown in too, presumably to liven up what otherwise seemed a quite stagnant narrative.

It kind of reminded me of the Brian Yuzna film Society, which deals with metaphorical sickness of affluent society manifesting as body horror, but it seemed to me that Black Hole had a lot less to say.

So, Am I missing something? Is there more to this tale than a story of teen solopsism where running away into the scary, but inevitablely metaphorical, forest is seen as more of an option than stopping whining and adapting to post-pubescent life?
Am I wrong to expect more than a simple allegory from a book that was ten years in the making?

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts...

Outside of that...
I'd agree that this collection is an attractive package, marketed in the size and format almost identical to all the other mass market hardbacks on the shelf, but somehow I prefer the look and feel of the Louis Real hardback from Drawn and Quarterly - the texture of the cover and quality of the paperstock really do give the book an air of authority and age that is quite fitting for the comics biography of a C19th Canadian figure...
 
 
eddie thirteen
01:41 / 07.12.05
I haven't seen Society, but yes, I think it's safe to conclude that Black Hole has more to say than any film from the director of Faust. Ye gods, man.

I'm a little appalled by the facile dismissal here...Burns is clearly more than a just-kinda-sorta competent artist, and I'm afraid you lost me right there, Sleaze. Even so, I still managed to be shocked when you implied that the narrative was slapdash and meandering when a reading -- not a close reading or anything, just a reading -- makes it pretty plain that Burns had plot points in place from the first issue that didn't pay off until the last, published nearly a decade later. (Including the "thrown in serial killer stuff" that is foreshadowed beginning somewhere around the tenth page of the first issue. You may not like it, but it's obviously not a last minute addition to the story.) This, to me, is not an indicator that one has made one's story up as one goes along.

And a book's not being plot-driven is not the same as a book having no plot, or no point. Here's where I'm gonna sound all snobbish/elitist/whatever, but plot-heavy writing is an expectation that (some) readers of genre fiction apply to everything they read, and frankly its presence or absence is not a litmus for whether a book is well-written. Burns seems more interested in character, and a suspensier plot of the type one might expect from what is ostensibly a horror comic would, in my view, cheapen the work. Genre tropes have a way of doing that when they're inserted into works of a slightly more sui generis variety, as their familiar (even cliche) nature tends to stick out like a sore thumb and remind us that we're reading a story...as they remind us, not of anything in our actual experience, but of shit we saw in movies. I think Burns was going for something a bit more original.

That said,
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I do think the killer kids are the weakest aspect of the story, for the very reasons I outlined above. The creepy porn-and-bones-and-baby-doll-parts effigies they leave in the woods are, I think, so much eerier and more disturbing than the notion of a pair of sexually frustrated deviants that the revelation of the killers is a bit of a letdown (and their demise anticlimactic, although I suspect that's a deliberate attempt to defuse the "serial killer plot"). It's also a little too close to standard horror movie fare to be entirely convincing, and I think it almost (but not quite) jolts the reader out of the story -- similar to the way in which Strangers in Paradise kinda lost me for a while there when it was suddenly a crime comic. Thankfully, Black Hole only becomes a straight-up genre piece for those few pages, but I do wish that aspect of the book had been handled with the same flair as the rest. The killers never really come to life the same way the main players do; their one-dimensionality (okay, maybe TWO-dimensionality in Dave's case), unfortunately, makes this subplot ultimately feel like something shoehorned in from a much less interesting story. Oh, well.

And yeah, Burns is the Altoids guy.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
09:31 / 07.12.05
It sorta strikes me that Burns draws the way Dan Clowes might sometimes wish he could draw. Which isn't supposed to be a slight on anyone, more a massive compliment.

Gonna give this a read through as soon as I get some more work done and hopefully join in fully...
 
 
Michelle Gale
10:34 / 07.12.05
It sorta strikes me that Burns draws the way Dan Clowes might sometimes wish he could draw. Which isn't supposed to be a slight on anyone, more a massive compliment

,are you joking? Burns a has that 1950's/ early 60's commercial graphic minimalist aesthetic shit DOWN.

Ive only read a couple of issues of Black hole, (so perhaps im not an authority). While the Body horror stuff is quite well done, all it elicits is "well thats fuckin weird" theres nothing beyond that and the distinctive art style to sink your teeth into, I honestly think (from what ive read) its quite pedestrian really.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
11:49 / 07.12.05
Burns a has that 1950's/ early 60's commercial graphic minimalist aesthetic shit DOWN.

Well, yes, that's what I was saying. Clowes draws a lot like that at times, but not quite, and I'm pretty sure he's a big admirer of Burns stuff.

But to quote Chris Ware;

"I think I probably learned the most about clarity, composition, and efficiency from looking at Charles's pages spread out on my drawing table than from anyone's; his was always at the level of lucidity of Nancy, but with this odd, metallic tinge to it that left you feeling very unsettled, especially if you were an aspiring cartoonist, because it was clear you'd never be half as good as he was. There's an almost metaphysical intensity to his pinprick-like inkline that catches you somewhere in the back of the throat, a paper-thin blade of a fine jeweler's saw tracing the outline of these thick, clay-like human figures that somehow seem to "move," but are also inevitably oddly frozen in eternal, awkward poses ... it's an unlikely combination of feelings, and it all adds up to something unmistakably his own.

The phrases "thick, clay-like human figures" and "frozen in eternal, awkward poses" striking me as something that's also very true of Clowes work, possibly even something influenced by Burns (I don't know how long he's been around, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if his work was something of a template for part of Clowes own emerging style).

There's nothing minimal about Burns actual work (whatever overall effect or style is achieved), though. It's some of the most meticulous stuff I've ever seen and sometimes I look at it and worry about how painstaking it must have been. And yet it still somehow retains what I personally love about comic art, rather than the likes of Chris Ware - whose work - while undoubtedly meticilous and planned, feels like cold, hard mathematics in comic form to me.

Books pretty cheap on Amazon, right now. Hope I'm not let down when I actually come to reading the thing...

"Charles Burns is one of the greats of modern comics. His comics are beautiful on so many levels. Somehow he has managed to capture the essential electricity of comic-book pop-art iconography, dragging it from the clutches of Fine Art back to the service of his perfect, precise-but-elusive narratives in a way that is both universal in its instant appeal and deeply personal." --Dan Clowes
 
 
Spaniel
13:19 / 07.12.05
While the Body horror stuff is quite well done, all it elicits is "well thats fuckin weird" theres nothing beyond that and the distinctive art style to sink your teeth into

I don't have much to add because I haven't read Black Hole for years, and I don't have a copy to hand, but it saddens me that, in a thread that has done a pretty good job of explicating and discussing the books strengths and weaknesses, the accusation of weird for weird's sake should crop up, or the suggestion that the book is impenetrably bizarre. Whether Black Hole is a masterpiece or a flawed work, it sure as shit doesn't waste its time being weird for the sake of it - whatever that means - and I seem to remember it being pretty easy to interpret, emotionally and intellectually.

Gale, forgive me if I've misunderstood your intent. The word "weird" gets my back up, as far as I'm concerned it's all to often used as a shortcut to thinking.
 
 
Michelle Gale
13:51 / 07.12.05
Charles Burns is one of the greats of modern comics. His comics are beautiful on so many levels. Somehow he has managed to capture the essential electricity of comic-book pop-art iconography, dragging it from the clutches of Fine Art back to the service of his perfect, precise-but-elusive narratives in a way that is both universal in its instant appeal and deeply personal." --Dan Clowes

That really doesn't sound like Clowes (as I understand him better than any other...!), Do Burns and Clowes not have the same publisher hmmm?

Burns Is a good graphic artist with a distinct interesting style. I dont think that discounts the fact though that the comic has very little interesting to say. and doesnt really have anything going for it other than the fact that its (im sorry) a bit weird. It makes me think of black nail varnish on "bad" goths and garage rock album covers, which is fine if thats what you like (im sounding very snobbish sorry).

His art style is very little like Clowes, Clowes is in a completely different league. The subtlety and nuance (maybe not technical ability) of Clowes stuff really is a world away from Burns, Who is more of a Graphic Designer than Comic maker/artist/whatever.
 
 
sleazenation
14:35 / 07.12.05
Glad to see this thread coming alive- I want to comment at greater length at some point but before i do I just want to cover two brief points...

I haven't seen Society, but yes, I think it's safe to conclude that Black Hole has more to say than any film from the director of Faust. Ye gods, man.

If you haven't seen society, maybe you should wait until you do before you condemn its director so categorically. I'm sure many people who first saw Peter Jackson's work on Bad Taste or Brain Dead would not necessarily expect him to go on to direct films such as Heavenly Creatures or the Lord of the Rings films. I'm not saying Society is without its faults, but there is at least an attempt, perhaps ham-fistedly, within it to engage with wider socital issues, something that I didn't seen much evidence of in Black Hole
...

Now that might well be because Burns was aiming more towards a lyrical elegy to the triumphs and tragedies of doomed adolescence, as McGyver suggests above when he describes it as A beautiful, weird paen to teenage lust and longing, and a brilliant evocation of lost summers.

At which point I guess it depends on your feelings about adolescence and whether it is an interesting enough subject in and of itself to sustain the whole narrative. I wasn't really convinced it was.

Outside of that...

I'm a little appalled by the facile dismissal here...Burns is clearly more than a just-kinda-sorta competent artist, and I'm afraid you lost me right there, Sleaze.

I don't think I attempted any such dismissal of Burns as a "kinda-sorta competent artist", but merely stated that his art wasn't necessarily to my taste, which is something else entirely. But I'd agree that "but there wasn't anything that struck me as actively irritating about." was probably a poor choice of words. I was just attempting to convey my thinking as to why I was a bit disappointed by this book...
 
 
eddie thirteen
03:41 / 08.12.05
I *have,* however, seen both of Yuzna's less-than-stellar Re-Animator sequels. My interest is piqued enough to slap Society into my Netflix queue, but I do so against my own better judgment...how many bad/fair-to-middling movies does a director have to make before it's safe to say he's not real good? In re: Peter Jackson -- I saw Bad Taste for the first time last week, and to me, it's the work of a young, broke, but unmistakably Peter Jackson Peter Jackson. Ability burns through the murk of inexperience and dire financial circumstances, if it's there. Lord of the Rings isn't good because hundreds of millions of dollars were spent on it; it was good because hundreds of millions of dollars were spent on it wisely. Obviously, Yuzna has never had that kind of money to throw around, and I can't lie and say that I think the films of his I've seen are garbage -- if you like b-movies (and I do), there's stuff there to enjoy. But he's not the equal of Stuart Gordon, definitely not the equal of Peter Jackson, and when it comes to Burns...okay, different media, but to me Burns is without a doubt functioning on a much higher level.

On track, what's kinda blowing me away here is the ease with which some of these grand pronouncements are being made -- I mean, I hope you realize just how much literature, film, and even comics you're pretty much chucking into the crapper at a stroke by blowing off work that has young adulthood as a theme. In the annals of western culture as a whole, we're talking here of at least a few major works beyond just Black Hole and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I count four altogether; there could be others.
 
 
eddie thirteen
04:05 / 08.12.05
I'd be curious to learn, too, what wider societal issues you feel Black Hole should be engaging with. The book's main theme is the isolation the characters feel *from* a society that actively discourages their participation (that would rather they weren't there in the first place, in fact). The novel could only unfold the way it does if society as a whole were ignoring the teen plague; in essence, trying to make it disappear by simply refusing to acknowledge its existence. The kids are engaging with society in the only ways that are left to them -- they eat its garbage, hold up its restaurants, squat in its houses when the residents are away. No one is trying to help them, cure them, etc. -- and you know, if you look at the way America typically handles those less fortunate, this seems less like dreamy metaphor/allegory than it does what might very well transpire in the highly unlikely event that an STD made people grow tails and have their faces rotted off.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
07:45 / 08.12.05
threadrot - Society is a great, great movie. Starts off like an episode of 90210 before degenerating into one of the most fucked up, and perfectly representative horror movies of the 80's.
 
 
Michelle Gale
08:30 / 08.12.05
I mean, I hope you realize just how much literature, film, and even comics you're pretty much chucking into the crapper at a stroke by blowing off work that has young adulthood as a theme.

"how much" There is a hell of a lot, and Black Hole has very little interesting to add to masses of literature film etc that already deal with simiialr "issues".

Perhaps its personal taste on my part, but this (dated) fetish for adolesance that pervades practically all popular media is a bit boring. You could say Burns is commenting on that, but if he is he doesnt have much to say about it other than: look! that girl with big tits has a tail! and then she has sex! look how odd im being, which is fine in and of itself, but should it taken seriously?
 
 
Haus of Mystery
10:37 / 08.12.05
this (dated) fetish for adolesance (sic)

Dated how? Why is it dated to meditate upon one's youth?
 
 
Spaniel
18:24 / 08.12.05
More threadrot.

Eddie, you REALLY should give Society a go. It features some of the most spectacularly fucked up body horror intheworldevar.
 
 
Spaniel
18:26 / 08.12.05
...look! that girl with big tits has a tail! and then she has sex! look how odd im being

Gale, even without the book to hand, I'm pretty sure you're being absurdly reductive.
 
 
The Falcon
18:32 / 08.12.05
Mention of Society has only enhanced my desire for the book.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:23 / 08.12.05
Duncan- go for it. Society is one of my favourite films, and Black Hole is good in many of the same ways.
 
 
eddie thirteen
21:50 / 08.12.05
Okay -- Society's in the queue. Moving on:

First of all -- especially in comic book terms! -- Eliza's tits are just *not* that big. I mean, don't get me wrong, they look comfy and all, but they're not disproportionate to her frame, and they're hardly dwelled upon in the same way that (for instance) Jim Lee slavers over Vicki Vale's ass in All-Star Batman. ("Jim Lee slavers over..." did I just write that? Body horror indeed....)

It's not a comparison I make to elicit an easy chuckle over the work of a widely derided superhero artist, either. All-Star Batman's Vicki Vale seems meant to titillate; she serves little other function in the story (based on the first issue). There's nothing really wrong with that, except that the overall goal of All-Star Batman isn't to tell a story about a girl with implausibly big tits and ass running around in her underwear. In fact, it's entirely beside the point. It's just sort of an incidental thing, which makes it as puerile and exploitative as any randomly-inserted shower scene in any b-movie. And this is the way that women are depicted in superhero comics ALL THE FUCKING TIME.

Black Hole, on the other hand, is actually *about* sex. So it would be more than a little surprising if Burns chose not to, you know, DEPICT SEX. It's a mistake, I think, to equate any depiction of sex and sexuality with porn, or at least titillation, which -- if I'm not reading too much into your "and she's got big tits" comments, Gale -- is what you seem to be doing. I don't feel there's anything puerile or exploitative about the book -- yes, Eliza is sexy, but if she weren't, Keith's interest in her would seem a little weird, wouldn't it? Remember, she *does* have an illness that could conceivably turn any sex partner she has into a person with a living fright mask for a face; if she's *not* sexually appealing, who in the hell would have sex with her? So yeah, she looks good, but not in a Vivid Girl kind of way (or a Balent Catwoman kind of way, which pretty much amounts to the same thing) -- her anatomy is constrained by the laws of physics, and her body language throughout is casual and free of porny excesses (and Burns' intent on that score is made evident when Keith checks out the gaudy porn mags in the creepy hippies' bathroom). It's tasteful. Unless you just find the sight of a naked human body inherently distasteful, in which case, oh well.

I'm not sure if I'm following the logic behind the whole "fetishization of youth," either, at least not in the context of this book. The book is clearly about young people, yes. Does that mean that everyone who reads it is indulging a fetish for young people? I'm not sure what that even means. I could go on about what I think you *might* mean, but I'd be more interested in hearing you explain it. Not to mention how this "fetishization" is now dated. Uh...yeah, okay.
 
 
sleazenation
23:16 / 08.12.05
her anatomy is constrained by the laws of physics, and her body language throughout is casual and free of porny excesses (and Burns' intent on that score is made evident when Keith checks out the gaudy porn mags in the creepy hippies' bathroom)

I thought the mags were more of a foreshadowing of the 'hippies' attitudes towards women and of eliza's brutal rape.
 
 
eddie thirteen
16:31 / 09.12.05
*Could* be -- Burns may be using porn as a red flag for characters' immature ability to relate to others save to abuse and debase them, a notion borne out by the fact that the only other porn we see in the book is in the hands of Rick and Dave.

But porn is often (but hardly exclusively) the refuge of the lonely and dysfunctional, a description that applies to both the killer kids and Eliza's housemates; it might be more surprising if none of them read it. The porn in the drug dudes' bathroom doesn't look to me like stuff that screams "rapist!" -- the women are, I suppose, in somewhat submissive poses, but there's nothing violent about any of the imagery, and not even light s/m. The presence of well-thumbed porn laying out where anyone can see it does bespeak (in both cases) a generally sexless existence (most of us have a tendency to hide stuff like that if we're expecting company!), and -- in the case of Eliza's housemates -- a lack of respect for Eliza, certainly.

I think, though, that the porn Keith finds is meant to stand in contrast to the reality of an actual, like, sex partner, since it's explicitly juxtaposed against his thoughts of Eliza. The idea that viewing women as objects (the porn) has led Eliza to the unhappy state she's in when Keith sleeps with her, directly or indirectly, is an interesting one, though, and you could be right.
 
 
eddie thirteen
22:26 / 14.12.05
Okay...

I'm not sure whether this is threadrot, but I just watched Society, and...yeah. That's a cheesy-ass movie, you guys. Good, original ideas -- crap execution. The effects are cool, particularly for their time, but Jesus Christ. And was it really necessary for one character or other to use the word "society" every three fucking minutes? I'd be tempted to count, but that would mean sitting through it again, and it's really not worth it. The movie wasn't a waste of time, but it would have been greatly improved by a page one rewrite and a different cast (a replacement for the lead role of the 28-year-old high school senior would have been a great place to start)....sorry.

Sleaze...um...I'm hoping this is a movie you haven't seen in a while. I think if I'd seen it *in* 1989 (when I was sixteen), I would've dug it. As it stands, I really think you might want to give it a fresh look, 'cause...gah.
 
 
sleazenation
23:01 / 14.12.05
I haven't seen Society for a few years, but even with that caveat, I did conceeded that it wasn't without fault. As you say, it's got some interesting ideas, and my contention is that its ambition and scope was greater than that exhibited in Black Hole, which confined itself to a very narrow subject matter.

As for one of the characters in Society saying the word "society" over and over again - is it really any worse than the over-abundance of vaginas and other black holes that fill the pages of Black Hole? It felt very much as if the writer was tapping us on the shoulder every few panels and saying 'do you see? do you see? Black hole - like a vagina. Teenage sex and death, the giddy excitement. Mmmmmmm'. There wasn't quite a train going into a tunnel, but we weren't far away with the tent flaps in the middle of the woods - and that rock in the sea...

I'm still inclined to think that responses to this book rely on ones attitude to adolescence an how interesting it is in and of itself as a subject for an extended piece of work...

What other points of interest, subjects, images does the book contain that piqued people's interest?
 
 
sleazenation
23:18 / 14.12.05
The book's main theme is the isolation the characters feel *from* a society that actively discourages their participation

We don't see the infected characters actively discouraged from participation in society from anyone other than the perfect/uninfected teen couple in the fast food restaurant do we?

Even Keith's parents, the only adults I can remember in the book are relegated to what is virtually a non-speaking part and they never so much as even comment adversely about the 'teen plague'.

This is a book about the experience of being a adolecent from the point of view of adolecents. The inhumanity in the book is all the inhumanity of adolecents to one another. I'd agree that isolation is a theme of the book, but only in the sense of adolescent isolation and isolation in adolescence.
 
 
eddie thirteen
00:12 / 15.12.05
Oh, I dunno...again, I think you may be remembering Society as a much better film than it actually was (which isn't hard to imagine, since it had the potential to be much better than it actually was -- I wish that afore-mentioned page one rewrite had been *my* job, I can tell you that much). I guess the scope was broader in the sense that we see "teenagers" and adults, but we view them from the very limited viewpoint of a protagonist whose head we're not even in all the time; often (and, maddeningly, at crucial plot points when this kind of insight would be most useful) the film seems to have no viewpoint at ALL, and we're watching someone make decisions that don't even make sense on a bad horror movie level, as there isn't even faulty logic driving the character -- there seems to be no logic whatsoever. We're just kinda watching stuff happen. If there is even an iota of logic in the main character's predicament -- a

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Truman Show-style setup in which his family and almost everyone in town is apparently in on a grand ruse that has GONE ON FOR SEVENTEEN YEARS, the end result of which will be to one day leap out of the shadows and say, "Booyah! You're dinner!" -- man, I have no idea what the fuck it could consist of. Seriously, are these shape-changing fat vampires or whatever the hell they are really *that* starved for entertainment? Can you even begin to imagine how this would work, in anything like the real world? You change this kid's diapers, you patch him up when he gets his ass kicked by some sociopath on the recess yard when he's seven, you grit your teeth through twelve seasons of "The Dukes of Hazzard" and talk him through the horrors of acne and try not to wince when he hits about thirteen and you can't do his laundry without accidentally fingering the stiff/sticky patches on his sheets, pay for his summer camp and try to pretend you can't hear the Butthole Surfers pounding through his bedroom wall at two in the morning, all so that you can one day EAT HIM? My God, the aliens to whom water is sulphuric acid who then invade a planet THAT'S LIKE 90% UNDERWATER in Signs actually seem sensical compared to this preposterous bullshit.

...damn. What were we just talking about?
 
 
eddie thirteen
00:25 / 15.12.05
Oh, yeah.

Well, the adults *are* there, and their indifference to what's happening is made (I think) clear more by what they don't do than what they do -- which is to say, they seem totally oblivious to it, which they can't possibly be, hence they're actively pretending it's not real. Presumably, there's someone at the CDC somewhere who's trying to do *something,* but that person never materializes. I think this is all meant to be allegory for the isolation/feelings of being forsaken that adolescents often experience, self-imposed or otherwise (and the self-imposition of that isolation I think is there, too -- check the book's last scene).

Agreed on the point that there's more than a little Lord of the Flies to the story. The direct damage is done by the kids to one another; the adults are, I would argue, complicit in their general absence and apparent inability to contribute anything useful to the situation. Again, a sensation I certainly recall from being that age (though, in retrospect, it's clearer to me that many adults in my own life were trying a lot harder than I gave them credit for, and could have been more help had I allowed it...a situation I'm sure isn't unique to me).

The Freudian symbols are there, yeah, but I don't feel there's any point in the book where Burns is trying to pound me over the head with a gigantic vagina. I suppose mileage varies on this point.
 
 
Spaniel
08:49 / 15.12.05
Careful guys, we're clinging onto the topic by our fingernails here. This Society talk is all well and good, but, unless it's explicitly linked to Black Hole, it should be done in its own thread.

In film.

(Taking boring mod hat off now)
 
  

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