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US Secret Prison Camps in Europe

12:24 / 05.12.05

Condoleezza Rice today defended America's practice of secretly abducting terrorist suspects to interrogate them in bases belonging to the US government and its allies.

The US Secretary of State's robust statement - issued shortly before she left on a four day tour of European capitals - is the Bush Administration's first detailed response to reports that the CIA operates secret prisons in Eastern Europe, and covertly detains and transports alleged terrorists through Europe.

from Timesonline.co.uk today.

Is anyone else reminded of the conspiracy theories about US concentration camps? And the relevant bit in the Invisibles? Am I overreacting to be appalled at this, and does anyone else wonder what they are NOT admitting to if they're willing to divulge secret prisons?

12:55 / 05.12.05

Concentration camps? In what way is the US policy of rendition analagous tothe aims and practice of concentration camps?

14:53 / 05.12.05

Oh, it's now changed to Condoleezza Rice has defended US treatment of terror suspects and refused to either confirm or deny the existence of CIA-run secret prisons in eastern Europe.

Perhaps a scaremongering thread title, let me change it to 'secret prison camps' not 'concentration'. But I do have some serious concerns about US rendition-
"she did defend the CIA's use of "rendition": transporting suspects to countries where they can be questioned outside the protection of US law."

What's the ostensible justification for that?

"The Washington Post also reported that dozens of prisoners had been wrongly rendered, with some being kidnapped in their home countries and held incommunicado for weeks."

Foreign agents kidnap you and take you to a secret location where they question you about terrorism and deny you access to your family and don't allow you to tell them what's happened to you, despite a) your innocence and b) living in a completely different country, nay continent to the security forces abducting you. 1984ish or what?

"Human rights groups say holding detainees incommunicado is illegal and often leads to torture."

Not surprisingly, I fear where this sort of thing will lead. Am I being naive? If so why are European governments up in arms about it?
"Reports of the existence of the secret prisons have caused an international outcry. Several European governments, as well as the EU, have asked the US to confirm the existence of the prisons"

07:20 / 06.12.05

It's ironic.

In the '90s, the paranoid US right used to post pictures of forest clearings, gas wellheads, abandoned suburbs and electrical power substations and claim they were actually secret UN concentration camps under construction, and it was basically bullshit. There were also supposed to be secret symbols on road signs directing UN troops should they come marching through Georgia. The black helicopters meme comes from this period. The X-Files tapped into this zeitgeist very well.

Meanwhile, the very real explosive growth of supermax prisons and the private prison industry happened throughout the '90s without much public comment. And, now that the paranoid right are in power, they've started to make those nightmares a reality, working in their favor.

Here's a double irony.

In 1984, Col. Ollie North (remember him?) wargamed (on paper) with FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) a scenario in which the US declared formal war on Nicaragua and the expected public unrest would "require" the US government to detain and prosecute large numbers of dissidents and other troublemakers. After Ollie's date with destiny and a failed bid for the US Senate (from Virginia), Ollie hosted a rightwing radio show (who didn't?) and probably fed those UN concentration rumors.

07:51 / 06.12.05

Maybe I'm being overly cynical, but I'm not worried about this. I'm worried about the things we haven't found out about yet.
As bad as this is, you cannot convince me that they aren't right now planning something even worse.

Bush and his puppeteers have proven time and again that they don't give a shit for freedom, democracy, justice or anyone but themselves, really.
Something has to be done. Now, where did I put that Carcano catalogue.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

08:25 / 06.12.05

There was an article on this in the New Statesman about nine months back. I thought it was odd that nobody picked up on it then. I'm glad they have now.

Unfortunately, there're gona be a lot of people who think this is the price we have to pay for security.

Coupled with everything else, I'd say if "the terrorists"' goal is actually to destroy Western civilisation, they've already won. Can we go home now?

10:50 / 06.12.05

Coupled with everything else, I'd say if "the terrorists"' goal is actually to destroy Western civilisation, they've already won.

How so?

12:36 / 06.12.05

I suppose that Stoatie might be referring to the concept that "civilisation" refers to values and morals, including a concern for things like human rights and a desire to use words like "freedom" and "democracy" as more than just a cover to justify killing lots of foreigners. Maybe.

Getting back to Rice and the secret prisons, I think it is interesting to look at the use of language. I believe that Rice previously claimed that the US was not in contravention of international law and now denies that the US practices torture.

While you would have to be extremely naive at this point to take these statements at face value, I think it is interesting to note the justification of them. That is, I don't think they are being offered as plain lies but as a complicated kind of truth. That is, they reject most definitions of both "legal" and "torture" so that the illegal torture is just defined away. The fact that people are being beaten, given electric shocks and raped by dogs isn't considered relevant.

Just to be clear, the above examples did not take place in Europe but in Egypt, Syria and Jordan. I'm not aware of any actual reports of torture from CIA prisons within Europe. I think it would be interesting to know if there were such reports.

13:35 / 06.12.05

One small point, Mamdouh Habib was only threatened with being raped by dogs. A small difference, and one that is pretty much negligible after he'd been beaten, electrocuted and forced to stand on tip-toe to keep his head above water, but still.

With regards to the official reason that Rice gave regarding the use of rendition, ie that use of it takes terrorists out of action. I find that to be a particularly unsatisfactory explanation.

There is simply no reason, IMO, that a prisoner should be held in absolute secrecy. Even if they are considered to be a threat to national security they should still be held in such a way as to allow access by independant human rights observers to ensure that no abuses are taking place.

In my view, the only possible reason for removing a prisoner to a secret prison in countries not known for their liberal treatment of prisoners is in order to perform activities that are illegal in your own country.

It genuinely sickens me that people consider torture to be an acceptable tool of interrogation on people who are only suspected of a crime. Habeus corpus is surely one of the basic principles of a democratic society.

17:10 / 06.12.05

(more from Timesonline)
In Germany she said today
"This is a war in which intelligence is the absolute key to success ... to get to perpetrators of such crimes before they commit them."

Let's repeat that last bit, to get to perpetrators of such crimes before they commit them? Minority Report anyone?

"rendition" - the CIA's extrajudicial seizure, transportation and interrogation of thousands of terror suspects.

Help me out. Extrajudicial means Illegal, right?

Lebanese-born Herr Al-Masri was allegedly seized by the CIA as an al-Qaeda suspect while on holiday in Macedonia in 2003. He was then flown to a prison in Afghanistan where he was held in jail for five months until the Americans realised they had got the wrong man.

Five months later, they say to you "Oh sorry dude, we wanted a different Mr Al-Masri. Whoops!"
So the CIA think it's alright to abduct a German citizen on holiday in Macedonia and hold them for five months in Afghanistan? This makes us safer how? Fuckers. I'm off to the headsick with rage thread...

Spyder Todd 2008

21:12 / 06.12.05

Man I hate this government most days. I know none of it was my fault, but man, how does Washington sleep at night? You would think that a.)the Geneva Convention, b.)every intelligence document from the last 80 years that states that torture is ineffective at retrieving reliable information, and c.)basic human decency would be enough for the bastards to say "let's not do this." But even if all that has fallen (as it obviously has), doesn't Bush realize he's only destroying what (very) little international image he has? I know his international policy is to basically say "fuck you" to everyone who disagrees with him on anything, but still...

The sad thing is, I wonder if in thirty years Americans will mostly ignore these "detention*" camps as much as we ignore the Japanese "internment*" camps of World War 2.

*=Not "concentration" camps. Nope. These camps are totally unrelated to "concentration" camps. They are in no way shape or form similar to "concentration" camps. In fact, we should probably change their names from "internment" and "detention" to "happy". Yes, from now on we will be holding supposed insurgents in "happy" camps where they will "have a good time".

Okay. I’m done ranting now.

*

00:50 / 07.12.05

Help me out. Extrajudicial means Illegal, right?

I believe 'extrajudicial' means 'without trial,' but the distinction is a fine one.

01:45 / 07.12.05

'Extrajudicial' means that the action takes place outside of the authority of a court. I don't think it's necessarily illegal but I'm sure it's not exactly on the up-and-up.

The important thing is that the U.S. has learned its lesson and that this sort of thing won't happen again.

ONLY NICE THINGS

07:24 / 07.12.05

Which lesson, exactly, has the US learned, slim?

10:08 / 07.12.05

Why Haus, the lesson of Redefinition of course-

During the past four years, [critics] say the Bush Administration has adopted an exceedingly narrow definition of torture, allowing interrogators to use a variety of harsh techniques such as stress positions, sleep deprivation, and "waterboarding", where suspects are strapped to a board and plunged into water.

It's not torture it's 'stress positioning' and 'waterboarding'. Kinda like massage and waterskiing for middle eastern looking men with beards. Do you see? So when Condoleeza says repeatedly 'We don't condone torture' it means except for part-drowning and strappado.

Five months of secret prison being strapped to a board deprived of sleep and put in a 'stressful position'? Mistakenly? Fucking holiday camp mate, you should see what they do to innocent people in the future...

10:19 / 07.12.05

The important thing is that the U.S. has learned its lesson and that this sort of thing won't happen again.

We're still talking about rendition here right? Because I haven't seen Dr Rice or President Bush making any indindication that 'this sort of thing won't happen again'. In fact, last I checked Dr Rice was still vigourously defending rendition, see this BBC report.

As Quantum points out, the US position appears to rest on it using its own special definition of torture...

10:56 / 07.12.05

It was an attempt at a joke, folks. Guess it didn't translate too well.

Knowing the administration, the only lesson learned has probably been, "Don't get caught."

11:00 / 07.12.05

Something I was wondering, now I come to think of it, was the connection between these new rendition destinations and the changing political situation in Egypt, which I believe used to be the favoured location in the past - reflected in the recent election but foreseeable for some time. Perhaps the US thought the climate would not necessarily remain favourable there and they might need an alternative.

pointless & uncalled for

13:10 / 07.12.05

The more popular meaning of the word extrajudicial is that which takes place outside of the normal or prescribed judicial process. This can mean anything from the point of detention onwards as this is now where the judicial process is perceived to begin. The authority of the court, by UK, and similar, standards is a little more limited as it requires presentation to the court before authority can be applicable.

As for illegal, this may well be the case but the intrajudicial procedure does have a certain authority to deem legal, legitimate, and necessary any acts that serve a higher public interest.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:48 / 07.12.05

I suppose that Stoatie might be referring to the concept that "civilisation" refers to values and morals, including a concern for things like human rights and a desire to use words like "freedom" and "democracy" as more than just a cover to justify killing lots of foreigners. Maybe.

Yeah, Lurid, that was pretty much what I meant.

16:22 / 07.12.05

I heard an interesting statement on NPR this morning. An international law analyst stated that the position of the administration is that since no declared war exists the Geneva Convention does not apply, but that because it is not peacetime either, that human rights law does not apply.

Essentially, they're claiming that it's a "new kind of war" and NO law applies.

The gall of these people is unbelievable.

unheimlich manoeuvre

22:41 / 07.12.05

Old news.
VICE PRESIDENT Cheney is aggressively pursuing an initiative that may be unprecedented for an elected official of the executive branch: He is proposing that Congress legally authorize human rights abuses by Americans.
washingtonpost.com Wednesday, October 26, 2005

What exactly is Cheney's train of thought?

19:00 / 08.12.05

Cheney's train of thought?

23:28 / 08.12.05

US admits that ICRC denied acess to 'all' suspects held by US forces...