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Mean-spirited shows

 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
00:42 / 04.12.05
I've been thinking about how a show can be "mean-spirited", and came to a couple conclusions.

1. A show is mean-spirited if the creator is actively trying to insult and belittle the audience with his creation, not if he simply shows little regard for the audience's intelligence or feelings.

2. These shows probably exist (shows that are bad for you on purpose).

I'm having trouble some determining which ones are merely bad and which ones are actually trying to make me feel bad. Give me a hand. Which shows, do you think, are put on the air with the express intention of hurting people? Or am I just paranoid to assume somewhere a TV executive or creator is trying to hurt my feelings?
 
 
Spaniel
08:41 / 04.12.05
I'm not sure I can think of any. It's a pretty stupid creator that sets out with that intention. I should also point out that's unlikely that such a show would get past the legions of other people involved with its production - it's not like creators have free reign.
 
 
Spaniel
08:50 / 04.12.05
I can think of a cinematic example, however, Funny Games, although I wouldn't decribe it as mean spirited*, rather it sets out disturb by confronting the audience with the reality of violence. Watching Funny Games isn't supposed to be a fun experience, quite the opposite in fact.



*I think your definitions are pretty muddled
 
 
Spaniel
08:52 / 04.12.05
Actually I don't think Funny Games fits your definition at all, but it's the closest I can get.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:53 / 04.12.05
I would change part one to 'audience or participants' and then you've got the whole range of things like Space Cadets, I'm a Celebrity..., Weakest Link and so on.
 
 
MacDara
10:17 / 04.12.05
Funny Games is more malevolent than mean-spirited. It plays with the conventions of horror/suspense/drama, turning them on their heads and confronting their audience with the stark prospect that things in the movies really aren't like reality... either that, or they're more real than we'd like to imagine. I point specifically to that bloody 'rewind' scene, which ruined the whole 'experience' for me.

I just hate that film. I'm not saying it isn't a good or even great film; I merely had an extremely mental and visceral response to it, and couldn't wait for it to end.
 
 
Spaniel
11:01 / 04.12.05
Lady, you could also include The Frank Skinner Show, and, of course, Endurance.

Mac, I feel exactly the same way about Funny Games. I seem to remember Haneke saying something like, "there are two kinds of people, those that need to see this film, and those that will switch it off."
 
 
Spaniel
14:13 / 04.12.05
Tuna, just an observation, but regarding your profile, I would argue your location *does* matter when we're having a conversation that depends on recognising shared cultural experiences, like TV shows.
For example, I know that Lady is a fellow brit, and, as such, will know what I mean when I mention The Frank Skinner show.

As another aside, I can think of shows that often (although not always) seem to be working against what I deem to be the common good (in so much as anything quite so nebulous can be discussed sensibly): Fox News for example.

I'm interested, do you feel you've come across shows that fit your definition?
 
 
ibis the being
00:09 / 05.12.05
No one ever agrees with me on this, but I felt that Christopher Guest's Best In Show was pretty mean-spirited, and for that reason I didn't see his next one about the folk singers.

I have no problem with movies that poke fun at people if there's some socially relevant reason, but I think it's a little unfair to poke fun at people just because their hobbies are, to most people, silly. It makes me cringe to see people (even fictional characters) mocked for being earnest and un-ironic. It's just cruel. I think most people see a note of kindness or compassion (affection?) in Guest's films, but I find the expression of that "kindness" extremely condescending.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:25 / 05.12.05
God, I didn't even think "compassion" when I saw Best In Show- that would be patronising. I just saw affection. Each to his own, but I'd say that was one of the least mean-spirited films I've seen in years.
 
 
Spaniel
00:30 / 05.12.05
Even if we all agree that BiS is mean spirited (which we don't), it still doesn't fit Tuna's description.
 
 
robertk
09:28 / 05.12.05
not really mean-spirited in tuna's sense but what about shows like "7th heaven"? what i mean is: a major commercial tv show aimed on making money on ad breaks. being so ridiculously 1960s naive ("i'm sixTEEN, what IS a penis?") and morally patronising.

you know, sometimes you watch stuff and you think: if this isn't satire, it's pretty damn nasty.

but they have a target group who will probably watch the show with a certain seriousness. so, imagine the makers of this particular show analyzing their viewer's profile and then figuring out which post-war stereotype would fit best.

it alomst seems like they're making fun of their viewers, which in itself is okay but reminds me of the guys in call centers who sell you something with their nice voice and when you hang up they're like "another one stupid enough to buy this shit".
 
 
ibis the being
11:52 / 05.12.05
Even if we all agree that BiS is mean spirited (which we don't), it still doesn't fit Tuna's description.

I know. I expanded the description, which I think was probably useful, since Tuna's description apparently wasn't describing much that anyone could think of.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:00 / 05.12.05
There's still a chance that Nathan Barley fits the description, but it's difficult to tell because it was such a fucking mess. At times it seemed like the writer was attacking the people most likely to watch it, at others it seemed that he sympathised with them.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
19:17 / 05.12.05
The idea came from the Billy and Mandy thread, in which someone described the show as "mean-spirited". I thought the show was lazy and mostly predictable, but not put on the air with the design to insult or hurt people. I realized, though, that it did not take much stretching of the imagination to picture a TV executive, or writer, or creator, or someone heavily involved in the creation or execution of a show, who has nothing but contempt for the people watching.

It's a pretty stupid creator that sets out with that intention.

Not neccessarily. Just a very angry one.

I should also point out that's unlikely that such a show would get past the legions of other people involved with its production - it's not like creators have free reign.

If the creator, or executive, or whoever convinces people that it will sell ad space, or get ratings, or do whatever it is TV shows do to create money for networks, he/she could put out anything that the FCC would allow. Why would anyone stop them?

For instance: that show with Pamela Anderson on Fox. I gave it a shot, and throughout the episode I cringed constantly. I got the distinct impression a man in a dark suit was laughing somewhere, not at the cheap, stupid jokes, but at me and anyone else watching Fox at that moment. "They'll watch it. Those bastards will watch anything. We can shovel load after load of stupid bullshit down their throats and they will keep coming back for more..." cue maniacal laughter. This show, by the way, just began its second season.

I guess it's easy, or at least easier, for me to understand someone's motivation in this. I recently switched from a cheap Italian restaurant chain to a very upscale Italian restaurant chain, and despite the extra money and the better class of clientele, I still sometimes hate the customers. Hate them a whole lot, actually. It comes easily, if I let it. I watch them stuff their fat fucking faces with terrible food that cost us a fraction of what they're paying for it, pay an obscene amount of money for the popular liquor, and leave lots of money for the servers, and I think "you would eat anything I put in front of you, right? I could piss in your wine and you wouldn't even know. I could get away with that shit easily." My job depends on them wanting to return and do exactly what I berate them (in my mind) for, but I still sometimes hate them and want to abuse them.

Is this rational? No. Is it healthy? I doubt it. I'm not sure where it comes from, but I'm not the only one who thinks like this. I've had several jobs where the staff, either lowly clerks or corporate goons, were keen to insult and hurt the people they depended on for job security. It isn't hard for me to imagine people in the entertainment industry going through the same thing.

So, all in all, I have begun looking for shows I think come from this sort of thinking. It's kinda hard, and all I can do is guess, but whatever.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
19:44 / 05.12.05
I would change part one to 'audience or participants' and then you've got the whole range of things like Space Cadets, I'm a Celebrity..., Weakest Link and so on.

Let's leave out Reality Television shows, as those are too obvious. But yes, you are correct sir.
 
 
Jack Fear
21:23 / 05.12.05
When I used the term in reference to Billy & Mandy, I was thinking less of hating the audience than of hating the characters.

That said, I can think of at least two films offhand that radiate hatred for both the characters and the audience: Lars Von Trier's Dogville and Tim Burton's Mars Attacks. Both are predicated on a deep misanthropy. Von Trier doesn't give a shit about educating or enlightening, let alone anything as bourgeois as entertaining—he simply sets out to punish his characters and his audience.

And Burton's glee at destroying the world on film is every bit as apparent as his glee in making a horrible, vicious, unfunny fuck-you of a film, at the height of his powers, at the height of his fame and commerciality—when we really would buy tickets for any old shit from Tim Burton, and he set out to prove just that point. His contempt for the audience is only slightly less pronounced than his loathing of himself for being (in his own eyes) a phony and a sell-out.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:13 / 05.12.05
Is Mars Attacks not just a shit film, Jack? Just wondering what you're basing your your understanding of Burton's motivations on here.
 
 
Jack Fear
22:21 / 05.12.05
It's shit, but it's highly-motivated shit. A filmmaker with Tim Burton's raw talent doesn't make a film that grindingly horrible without being really determined to do so. Seriously: Mars Attacks! is just fucking relentless in its hatefulness—it's the work of a man with something to prove, and that thing is: he hates us all and wishes us harm.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:09 / 05.12.05
Actually, I rather liked it.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:16 / 05.12.05
And what's the point of going to all the trouble of finding an audience for your work if you can't then turn round and lay it on the line as to what you really think about them, and about life?
 
 
This Sunday
23:45 / 05.12.05
I liked 'Mars Attacks!' and 'Best in Show', so does that make me a bad person? Destroying the world and a branch or two of the US Gov. can be fun. Why not? And, dude, the universal sign of the donut! Birds and rayguns and the whole "ah, fuck it" feel. And Christopher Guest wasn't deliberately setting out to say: This is how dogshow people are, it's the atmo of their circuit. Nobody's supposed to buy into it as a real documentary.
I think the '7th Heaven' thing might be the closest to accurate. Shows that are so inanely sacharine and blind that they have to be fucking around. It can't be serious and the audience shouldn't be taking it seriously. But, probably, at least one side of that equation are taking it seriously.
And that Xtreme Looney Toonz craziness... that seemed pretty mean-spirited in a marketing sense. The idea that they'll just throw an 'extreme' gloss on and the dumb little shits'll eat it up. Even at, oh, six years old, I'd probably've been insulted by that.
A what-the-fuck atmosphere doesn't insult me - I liked 'Mars Attacks' and 'Freakazoid' and hell, 'Mork and Mindy'. It's stuff that deliberately sets out to sell something absolute crap because they think we're dumb enough and desperate enough they don't even have to cover up that it's crap, that gets on my nerves.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
00:03 / 06.12.05
Seems like films are easier to spot than television shows. I would have thought the opposite, but maybe all the crap on television makes it harder to spot the ones with harmful intent.

I liked 'Mars Attacks!' and 'Best in Show', so does that make me a bad person?

Are you kidding? I've already mailed a bomb to your house in order to rid the world of your evil.

Hah. No, actually, I hope it doesn't because I enjoyed Best In Show immensely. Which brings up another point: even if someone sent it out as an insult or an attempt to make you feel bad, it may not have that effect. There have been a couple times when someone expressed their disgust and contempt at me (in person) only to have it cheer me up (I've stopped telling people about the dream I had in which I was a hermaphrodite and had sex with myself, by the way. Apparently most people don't find it as interesting and full of potent symbolism as I do). So maybe personal taste is a factor in how it is recieved, but not in regard to how it was meant.

I was insulted by Pamela Anderson's new show, possibly only because I let myself be insulted. I'm trying to remember all the shows that I have been angry enough to throw a middle finger at the screen or shout "oh, fuck YOU" at the actors and find some correlation.
 
 
Jack Fear
00:05 / 06.12.05
Actually, I rather liked [Mars Attacks!].

Ah, but did it like you? Did it fuck.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:30 / 06.12.05
Does anyone know how accurately 'Mars Attacks!' follows the trading cards? I understand that most of the nasty things the aliens do comes from the cards, whereas all the stuff with the humans is what Burton added. So maybe it's the creator of the cards you should question, although I found 'Ed Wood' extremely boring, which makes me think Burton has poor quality control rather than a deep loathing of mankind.

I also liked 'Mars Attacks', hell, I'll go and see any film in which Danny DeVito gets killed. 'The Passion of the Christ' would have been so much better with Danny DeVito playing Christ and NO SPECIAL EFFECTS BEING USED AT ALL.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
13:57 / 06.12.05
Don't hold back, now.
 
 
ibis the being
20:37 / 06.12.05
I got the distinct impression a man in a dark suit was laughing somewhere, not at the cheap, stupid jokes, but at me and anyone else watching Fox at that moment. "They'll watch it. Those bastards will watch anything. We can shovel load after load of stupid bullshit down their throats and they will keep coming back for more..." cue maniacal laughter.

Oh. I would be more inclined to call this deeply cynical greed, rather than mean-spiritedness. I'm not trying to pointlessly split hairs - I think there's a difference. In the former, it's broad, totally money-based cynicism, in the latter an actually misanthropic (stole your word Jack) desire to insult/ridicule people, perhaps a particular demographic of people (one's own fans, children, dog show handlers).

I had dinner with a Hollywood producer once when Rush Hour was apparently in the works, and true to stereotype she said (I paraphrase), "They're doing this action movie, a Chinese guy and a black guy buddy comedy, should be great." Aside from the weird racial typing, I don't think that attitude can be viewed as ridiculing its audience, because it doesn't even really see its audience as people, they're just units in a formula, of which the bottom line is revenue. To call this "mean-spirited," you might as well call Walmart mean-spirited because it runs small businesses out of town.

BTW I hated Mars Attacks.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:01 / 07.12.05
Oh. I would be more inclined to call this deeply cynical greed, rather than mean-spiritedness. I'm not trying to pointlessly split hairs - I think there's a difference.

There is, and I'm beginning to think it has more to do with me taking his maniacal laughter personally than anything else. But I'm not willing to give up the idea that a Fox executive is actively trying to abuse me.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:12 / 07.12.05
I found 'Ed Wood' extremely boring

You're a bad, bad person.
 
  
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