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Poland may lose EU vote

10:38 / 29.11.05

The EU justice commisionar has warned that a country housing secret CIA prisons may lose its EU vote - Poland and Romania are suspected.

I have no idea how accurate these suspicions may be, or how likely the EU is to suspend Poland's EU voting rights, but it seems like a serious situation which may be further fall out from the war in Iraq. As for Romania, I wonder if this will be used to deny them membership of the EU?

All Acting Regiment

14:49 / 29.11.05

Obviously secret CIA jails in Europe is a bad thing, but what's worse- that, or a poor country losing some of it's say? (Is that even the issue here?)

15:11 / 29.11.05

As for Romania, I wonder if this will be used to deny them membership of the EU?

Is it a case of 'you are either with us or against us'? with the EU standing up to maintain its sphere of influence (and civil liberties) in its own back yard?

02:04 / 30.11.05

It is outrageous, horrifying, lower than slime, that we have "respectable" governments committing the crime against humanity that is torture, AND making excuses for it, AND trying to invent legalisms to cover it. Anyone who helps them in this is complicit. The EU not only should, it must kick out any country that participates, unless that country is willing to immediately come clean and make reparations.

This is a crime against humanity. This isn't just some minor thing like having triple digit inflation. You can either stop being civilized or you can reject this horror. Americans have chosen the first option, to some extent, but that's no reason for Europe to follow them downhill.

Sjaak at the Shoe Shop

06:11 / 30.11.05

Interview with our Dutch vice-prime minister (airing our governments policy):

It is not the point that the US torture and violate human rights, nooo, no problem with that, they just shouldn't do it within the EU....

This is sick

pointless & uncalled for

12:16 / 30.11.05

On the otherhand, for the sake of devils advocacy, if we impose these sanctions/limitations on EU countries and potential entering nations there is a likelihood that those nations will remove CIA and other black sites. What then does this achieve? Probably the relocation of those black sites to other nations which may have even more of a questionable human rights/political record and by extension receive economic, political and military support from the US.

Perhaps then we should realistically be looking at the other end of the equation as well and begin sanctions on the US as propogators of these sites.

unheimlich manoeuvre

16:37 / 30.11.05

I was in Macedonia for a couple of weeks and local news, which my sister-in-law kindly translated for me, had a long article about foreign nationals being kept at an American military base in Skopje. Can't say for certain *how* they were being interrogated.
This issue may end up affecting a number of Eastern European States wishing to enter the EU.

02:39 / 01.12.05

Seldom: there are those among us who hope the Europeans decide to refuse entry to our current crop of war criminals, or (we can dream) arrest them if they visit Europe and make them stand trial. In Nuremberg, perhaps.

The whole thing is, as Sjaak says, sick.

Sjaak at the Shoe Shop

10:40 / 01.12.05

We have such a court in the Hague, over which the US has threatened us with an invasion.

(American Service Members Protection Act 2002 Sec. 2008. - Authority To Free Members Of The Armed Forces Of The United States And Certain Other Persons Detained Or Imprisoned By Or On Behalf Of The International Criminal Court.)

11:14 / 01.12.05

Is it a case of 'you are either with us or against us'? with the EU standing up to maintain its sphere of influence (and civil liberties) in its own back yard?

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The U.S. successfully picked apart the EU when it came to the invasion of Iraq, revealing the EU to be far less than unified even when it comes to the most important of international issues- war. I'm sure that this was a serious blow to the dignity of EU believers. Couple that with the more recent divisions between the constitution and the EU budget and I think you have a case of, "enough is enough." The EU has to stand for something and this probably seems like the perfect opportunity to reassert its principles and avert a crisis situation (if it's not in one already).

That being said, I wonder if rescinding Poland's vote is a little excessive. Does anyone know if there are EU regulations for this sort of thing? If not, I would think that instead of creating more ill-will inside the EU, it should give a stern warning to Poland and lay down clear penalties if/when something similar occurs in the future.

11:36 / 01.12.05

We have such a court in the Hague, over which the US has threatened us with an invasion.

Section 2008 says the President has the authority to use "all means necessary and appropriate," so I suppose technically war would be included but it's not explicitly stated.

It may surprise people here that the majority of Americans do support U.S. involvement in the ICC, at least according to a 2004 poll by the Chicago Council of Foreign Relations. However, I don't believe the vast majority of Americans want the U.S. to be subject to the ICC. Americans just want a say when others are held before the court. In what is probably a surprise to no one here, I'm iin agreement with this line of thinking.

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:10 / 01.12.05

"We'd like everyone but us to be eligible for prosecution" seems a bit of a no-brainer from the individual level up, really. What's the argument? That as a pragmatic move, realpolitiking nations must recognise the preeminence of the US, and thus allow it to exempt its soldiers while giving it representation on the Inteernational Criminal Court and its citizens protections against mistreatment that they do not need to observe themselves?

Or, if you want to be extra clever, US involvement in and simultaneously immunity from the ICC will undermine the credibility and validity of international law, allowing the US to exercise its will as it should be allowed preeminent power bulwark against terror global history manifest destiny fishcakes?

18:22 / 01.12.05

I think it's possible to argue that because of preeminent American power, we are expected (or have the responsibility?) to involve ourselves in numerous operations over a larger geographical area than any other nation. Therefore, we would be subject to more charges that a)could be somewhat frivolous or petty, a result of ill-will after American interference, or b) as you said, the court may interfere with the role of America as a global hegemon. It follows that if America is going to be part of the ICC then at the very least, exceptions need to be made as to how easy it is to bring the United States up on charges. A larger and more difficult set of responsibilities should necessitate more leeway when it comes to international law.

American citizens would not approve of being subject to the ICC because in the minds of the populace, America is not forced to answer to anyone. I'm not convinced that's actually true but I believe that to be a common sentiment held throughout the country. It's obvious to everyone that the U.S. holds a number of views that differ from much of the Western and non-Western world alike. To join an organization that would be hostile to certain American policies, such as the Iraq war, seems to be kind of foolish and almost self-incriminating.

21:15 / 01.12.05

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The U.S. successfully picked apart the EU when it came to the invasion of Iraq, revealing the EU to be far less than unified even when it comes to the most important of international issues- war.

I think one should be careful here. That statement is perfectly correct, as long as the EU is taken to refer to the political leadership; the actual citizens of the EU were pretty much united in their opposition (I think the UK and Poland were the most pro-war, though I'm not sure it ever reached a majority of the population...I could be wrong). So while Slim may be right about a divided EU trying to reassert its principles, this is in the context of fairly widespread doubts about TWAT.

Having said that, I doubt that the EU politicians have particularly strong convictions against the use of torture, for instance, but it is unclear what there is to gain by supporting US imperialism. That is, I think that Slim's argument as regards to the ICC is refreshingly candid and, I'd say, accurately reflects US policy. Human rights, international law and terror(ism) are either irrelevant or are at the very least subservient to the goal of maintaining US hegemony. That doesn't leave much of an incentive for housing secret CIA prisons.

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:51 / 02.12.05

That is a possible problem with this approach - if the US undertakes always to take the action that provides the greatest benefit to the US, then there really isn't much benefit in being on its good side, as if it is in its interests to ignore any favours previously done, it will do so. See the idea that Blair had accumulated political capital by backing the US in Iraq. That doesn't really incentivise countries to back their plays.

06:42 / 06.12.05

Europe should stay on board with the black prison system and try to reform it from within (as it were).

Seriously, getting mixed up in this stuff is lose-lose for Europe. It makes every EU citizen a legitimate kidnapping target in the eyes of the Iraqi rebels. It allows Bush to tap Europe's moral capital--you know, Enlightenment and all that Old Europe stuff--after having exhausted the US's own (and then some).

That'll make the neocons happy--a New Europe of "Asian values" (human rights subordinate to the bottom line).

New Europeans (former Eastern Bloc) are happily signing up for what was forced on them in Soviet times. Maybe they think this will make them rich like the US (don't mention that huge debt to China). And Poland ought to be especially ashamed.

Condi and the European leaders are going to look like monkeys if they think they can get away with lying about this stuff. Civilians are tracking the CIA planes and trading Google Earth maps of the actual camps, online. News outlets that actually care, like the BBC, can easily find it on the web.