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Gwenihana

 
  

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Char Aina
13:27 / 29.11.05
yeah.
wave 2 was totally punk-ska.
i sorta see wave 3 as mostly ska-punk.
 
 
matthew.
14:12 / 29.11.05
Weapons from the Wall/Petey Shaftoe: Oh dearie dearie me. More unexamined bullshit nostalgia. The idea that Stefani as a solo artist is somehow less interesting than Stefani as singer of No Doubt...
Yeah. "nostalgia" bullshit? Try a "memory", my friend. I'm not making a judgement on Gwen's solo stuff based on the fact that she's not separated from the rest of No Doubt. It's literally her boring fucking music that bores me along with her sense of selling everything she can before she fades into old-age. I personally find Gwen's songs incredibly boring. There is literally nothing that Gwen does (other than the Harajuku girls and not for the reason Gwen thinks) that I find interesting about her anymore.
Just in terms of relative quality of their musical output, she's already better off on her own.
Relative quality? There you go. Don't say I'm speaking "bullshit" when one of the words you use is "relative". If you mean "quality" as in that it sounds more polished, more mainstream and embarrassingly unoriginal, then sure it's quality, it's quality like every other pop princess out there. If you mean "quality" as in there are structurally better songs with unique chords and meaningful lyrics, then let me quote Gwen to respond to your comment:
"This shit is bananas"
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:28 / 29.11.05
Hey, I've been up past the twenty-six hour mark and I'm out of caffeine, pissy responses to music threads are bound to arise.

You know, I feel rather like the ebon pot here, but maybe you would be better served by going to bed, rather than posting to Barbelith? If you have to type to help you get to sleep, how about writing a lovely poem, again rather than posting to Barbelith?

I realise it's a bit of a tangent, but a) are there really fewer attractive women in alternative music than pop music (scientifically prove your answer) and b) could somebody help me out by providing instances of the unique chords and meaningful lyrics of No Doubt? I'm afraid I only really know "Don't Speak", which was unmitigated torture.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:30 / 29.11.05
matt, I'm going to ask you a question, and I want you to think carefully about your answer.

Do you know what the word 'relative' actually means? In the sense that it can have more than one meaning?
 
 
John Octave
15:41 / 29.11.05
could somebody help me out by providing instances of the unique chords and meaningful lyrics of No Doubt?

I much prefer No Doubt to solo Gwen Stefani, but I think trying to "prove" it citing "unique chords and meaningful lyrics" would be an uphill battle. Musically (might we say "Pop that was influenced, in places, by ska?"), I wouldn't say they were particularly innovative, and I don't think they ever meant to be.

People usually cite Gwen's lyrics in defense of No Doubt, although eight or ten years later or however long it's been since "Tragic Kingdom," much of the high-school diary stuff doesn't sit as well with me now as it did when I was in my mid-teens.

Some of the "Return of Saturn" lyrics are quite unusual and interesting, however, because there's quite a few songs about "I'm turning thirty and I just want to settle down and get married and have kids before I'm too old and dead." Which other people have done, to be sure, but it's their juxtaposition with the boppy poppy mainstream music that's nifty.

However, I prefer the bubbly pop guitars-and-horns-and-keyboards sound to the solo Gwen Stefani's clubbier synth-and-programming sound. I think their middle two albums were a lot of fun (musically, Don't Speak is not entirely indicative of the output from around that time, if it helps), but that the solo stuff is glitzy but doesn't have much going for it behind the production. The operative word for No Doubt at its best is "bouncy."

This is all off this specific thread's topic, I'm sure, but Haus did ask and I wanted to take the position somewhere between "No Doubt was vapid 90s crap and Gwen Stefani is now a clever media-manipulating diva" and "No Doubt is really deep and touches my soul but Gwen Stefani totally sold out to The Man" that not many people seem to offer.
 
 
matthew.
21:53 / 29.11.05
You know what I get a kick out of? The fact that a bitchy response to a bitchy response gets a bitchy response. I refuse to further fight over Gwen. I'm out of this thread.
 
 
Ganesh
22:08 / 29.11.05
That makes you appear much more mature than would engaging with the question, Matt. Yay you.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:03 / 30.11.05
Thanks for that, John - most enlightening. I might have a potter around iTunes later to do a compare and contrast.

I'm still a bit confused about the attractive pop/attractive alternative thing, but that may have to wait.
 
 
Seth
08:56 / 30.11.05
No Doubt always seemed to be a clumsy prison cell for Stefani, who had bigger and better written all over her. The band bordered on offensive to the ears Chilli Peppers territory in their hamfistedness at approaching overlapping genres, always less than the sum of their parts, no synthesis.

Stefani solo seems to hit the nail on the head, more than I'd have thought possible considering her less than humble origins. It's enormous fun, catchy, shiny and has the best kind of swagger throughout. I'm really pleased that she's managed to make something so planet conqueringly pop, and she deserves all the praise I heap on her. Now if we can only redeem the other talented people from the rubbish bands of the world...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:22 / 30.11.05
And, sliding from there effortlessly back on-topic....

We often forgive people a lot if they are talented, or if we think they are talented. Both hip-hop and rock music, most obviously, have severe critics and committed defendes of their standards and the opinions they express. Something that Stefani came under fire for at the start of this thread was her use of a cadre of harajuku girls in her videos and public appearances. Flyboy said of this:

I don't think it's an 100% positive thing or an uncomplicated thing by any means, but I'm also not convinced by all of the criticisms of this, some of which seem to get entangled with a) internet rumour taken as fact (allegedly the Asian-American performers who play the four Harajuku Girls who accompany Stefani have a clause in their contract stating that they can only speak in Japanese when in character: the rights and wrongs of this aside, I don't know the veracity of the source), and b) good ol' fashioned straight-up anti-pop hateration.

The song 'Harajuku Girls' is pretty clearly about fandom and voyeuristic cultural obsession, Stefani placing herself in the role of awkward, geekly white girl, one step behind the cutting edge. The only duff note for me is the moment when mutual fandom is revealed - hey, the Harajuku Girls love her too, and they love her loving them - but then again maybe that's not so far-fetched:

When told that they were the inspiration for a popular singer in the US, they were visibly excited. "We are very happy," the girls squealed in unison. "I think American women are attractive, so this type of fashion would look good on them," added one girl.

There's also this whole idea Stefani's hinted at that the Harajuku Girls as they appear in her videos, songs, and public appearances don't really exist: that they're a figment of her imagination. One could argue that this makes a point about how Western perceptions of the Other are inevitably a fantasy divorced from the reality... etc. Maybe. This then brings us back to "but what about the women who have to play her sidekicks?", and again, I'd have to see the contracts, not to mention the paycheques.

Would it be better if there was an Asian-American pop star as prominent as Stefani, rather than just these four sidekicks? F'sure. Is that Stefani's responsibility in the meantime, or rather is it her responsibility not to have these sidekicks? Less sure.


So far, I'm not sure there has been a response to this, which perhaps tells us something about opinions towards the situtation in itself.
 
 
HCE
18:40 / 30.11.05
Her responsibility in what sense? In the sense of her responsibility as a person to other people, generally? Or a responsibility to be respectful, as an admirer of a particular subculture? Or just as a pop star, who is presumably influential to The Youth?
 
 
HCE
18:41 / 30.11.05
And before anybody yells at me, those questions are a request for clarification, not some veiled attempt at being snarky about anything.
 
 
Ganesh
19:03 / 30.11.05
I suspect Flyboy is handling the word "responsibility" with looong sugar-tongs in that last paragraph. It might be useful people having a stab at what what do think Stefani's responsibility is here.
 
 
Char Aina
19:08 / 30.11.05
an article discussing the salon article, and other reactions to the issue.

i would say that its a bit difficult to judge stefani on this because we dont have the full facts. my initial assumption when i saw the first video from this latestalbum was thatshe had collaborated with a japanese act on her album, being as it is full of collaborations. to find out that these girls are basically eye candy was a bit disapointing.
i was hoping there was more music to be found behind stef's, i guess.

is there any parallel here with the public enemy dancers?
as far as i recall they did nothing other than look like big intimidating paramilitary black guys(and dance). they too were playing on a pretty limiting stereotype to make the main band look cooler.

does the fact that they were of the same race as the band make the difference?
 
 
grant
19:59 / 30.11.05
Were any of you also reading my reaction to the whole but-there-were-bisexuals-on-Babylon-5-that-we-never-really-saw thing over in the Film & TV forum?

Once again, I am depressed over the trajectory of American popular culture.

The fact that I find myself nodding at Margaret Cho when she says: Amos ‘n Andy had lots of fans, didn’t they? At least it is a measure of visibility, which is much better than invisibility. I am so sick of not existing, that I would settle for following any white person around with an umbrella just so I could say I was there.

Thank you for the nightmares, Ms. Cho.

I wouldn't have the same reaction if it was, say, a group of those featureless target="_BLANK">Robert Palmer video girls following Stefani around. It's the exotic accessory thing that bugs me. She's not subverting a stereotype, she's updating it. Or so it seems to me.

My take on Stefani has always been that she's the new Madonna -- she certainly seems to be as much about capturing, creating and selling an image as she is about singing and songwriting. She's one of those chameleon people. There's something positive about the visibility thing that Cho mentions elsewhere in her quote, the empowerment of this Tokyo hipster scene (with which I'm not familiar at all) being broadcast to corners of the world it normally wouldn't have access to. But the "Hey, I've got a Japanese posse," thing is kind of horrifying to me.

And I'm sure that reaction is -- well, if not part of the point, then at least part of the strategy. She's getting talk. How... controversial. How... risque.
 
 
Char Aina
20:21 / 30.11.05
My take on Stefani has always been that she's the new Madonna

agreed.

And I'm sure that reaction is -- well, if not part of the point, then at least part of the strategy.

agreed.

maddy has been known to court outrage for its own sake as well. it would seem a pretty standard way to get yourself talked about. heck, we have two threads about gwen active at once, populated with both fans and non-fans.
job done, perhaps.
 
 
Chiropteran
19:13 / 09.12.05
is there any parallel here with the public enemy dancers?
as far as i recall they did nothing other than look like big intimidating paramilitary black guys(and dance). they too were playing on a pretty limiting stereotype to make the main band look cooler.


According to Chuck D, Griff and the S1Ws were originally the security outfit PE hired for shows. They had politics in common, and the S1W's look augmented the Black militant image of the group, so eventually it became a permanent gig and part of the stage-show. It was apparently Chuck's plan to raise Griff and the S1Ws to the same status as him and Flav, at least as far as the record company was concerned - with contracted 'songwriter' status for royalties, etc., until the process was derailed by Griff's infamous interview and subsequent departure.

So, while I think there is some comparison possible, the situation wasn't quite the same.
 
 
Chiropteran
19:19 / 09.12.05
the situation wasn't quite the same....

...in that for PE it started as a functional, professional relationship (i.e. show/tour security), and evolved into something more visible/iconic over time, rather than Stefani suddenly appearing with "a Japanese posse," that are apparently there primarily (soley?) for their image. Sorry, didn't unpack that before.
 
 
rhedking
06:15 / 10.01.06
ofcourse now gwen apparently is down with the Vida Locas. She's gang-banging as we speak
 
  

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