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Regret

 
 
Smoothly
14:25 / 24.11.05
Over in the Bad Student thread, conversation turned to regrets and shame (touching on the relationship between the two).

So I’m starting this thread, partly to avoid derailing the other one, partly because some interesting conceptions of regret seemed to be emerging, and partly because I have a vicarious interest in the kind of regrets people have.

So, got any regrets? What makes them regrettable? How does regret psychologically function for you? Has it informed subsequent behaviour, are you better for having them, or do they just cripple you like some chronic psychic neuralgia?

How does regret relate to / interact with other emotions (shame, blame, embarrassment, responsibility, remorse...)?

What does out capacity for regret say about us? Is it evidence of a continuous self (that the person who did x is the same person who regrets x), in a similar way that shame is said to be evidence against solipsism? Why do we regret things we haven’t done more than things we have (according to cliché)?

Too many questions, I know. I’m just interested in what regret means to you (if, that is, it means anything at all).
 
 
Jub
09:03 / 25.11.05
It's better to regret things you have done, than things you haven't done...

Oh and son, if you see your mother this weekend, be sure to tell her:

SATAN SATAN SATAN SATAN.
 
 
Smoothly
09:28 / 25.11.05
Seriously, I’m quite interested in that old saw. Because for me, it’s the total opposite. There are very few things I regret not doing, but *loads* of things I have done but wish I hadn’t. I would have thought that was true for everyone. Write two lists, one headed ‘I regret not…’ and the other ‘I wish I hadn’t…’. Tell me if the first is honestly longer than the second. How I will envy you.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:34 / 25.11.05
I regret not having the energy to contribute more to Barbelith this week. Whole swaths of threads are passing by without people being forced to hear my thoughts on them. How will everyone cope without their spiritual mentor?

HOW?
 
 
Jub
11:36 / 25.11.05
I take your point Smoothly, but in fairness part of the reason I'm less regretful about stupid things I've said and done than perhaps I might otherwise be is because I know this is part of who I am.

So, if for example I hadn't made a tit of myself with a certain girl in the 4th form, I wouldn't have learnt from those mistakes and got a lovely girlfriend in the 5th form. (yay!)

Okay - so you tend to remember bad things you've done - and they are cringeworthy etc, but if you had to do it all again, are you honestly saying you *wouldn't* do them again?
 
 
Smoothly
12:05 / 25.11.05
Fuck yeah. There are loads of things that I wouldn’t do if I had my life over again. There are quite a few things I wouldn’t do if I could have last week again.

I do see what you’re saying though, and sometimes regret can be quite a complex emotion. For instance, I pretty much always regret making a fool of myself. However, I’m also aware that it is in some ways *good* for me to make a fool of myself every now and again; it stops me taking myself too seriously. So there’s an ambivalence there.

Thinking about it, I’m also aware that my list idea above doesn’t really do much to undermine the ‘Better to regret things you have done than things you haven’t’ principle, but I still feel uneasy about it.
I think in my mind this feeds into doubts I have about the way passivity is derided and activity applauded (dubiously, IMO), but in my experience, the people who say ‘Better regret things you have done than things you haven’t’ are, as a rule, thoughtless, irresponsible, selfish, ‘My Way’-quoting cunts.
But then, the difference between things done and things not done is often in the eye of the beholder. One person might regret treating someone badly, while another might regret not treating someone better.
 
 
Loomis
12:07 / 25.11.05
Yes jub, but if you didn't regret making a tit of yourself, then you would've probably done it again and therefore not have got the girl the next time.

Like many psychological behaviours, a little regret is a good thing because it shows that you've learned from your mistakes and it helps you to move on and improve your life. It's unhealthy to stew over it and beat yourself up over things you've done, but a little healthy regret for past stupidities can be a force for good. Being emotionally crippled by regret is obviously a bad thing but so is being emotionally crippled by love. Doesn't make love a bad thing.

I'm suspicious of anyone who says they regret nothing because it suggests that they haven't learned anything from their mistakes, or they don't care about the negative consequences of their actions. And while it's true to an extent to say that you couldn't have been anything other than yourself, that also functions as a neat way to avoid any self-analysis or reflection.
 
 
Jub
12:14 / 25.11.05
Who you calling a cunt?

Yeah fair point, and I suppose really that's what I'm saying. Mistakes you've made are part of you - and therefore okay to regret, whereas things you haven't done (be it not touring with a band when you had the chance or not treating someone better in a particular case) are missed potential which means you could've been better that you are, by fulfilling your potential.

I know what you mean about the passivity / activity thing but this doesn't always fit neatly into the regret/ not regret model. eg... I regret not taking the last train home.
 
 
Smoothly
12:35 / 25.11.05
Who you calling a cunt?

You, sir, couldn’t have been further from my mind. I meant those other people - The kind of people who write list of ‘50 things to do before you die’, without thinking that they might have a better life if they wrote a list of 50 things never to do. But I digress.

The fulfilling potential thing is interesting. I’m wondering if the kinds of things people tend to regret not doing (if it is possible to categorise things as such), have anything in common. My first thought, for example, is that the often seem to be high-risk things. I wonder how our capacity for regret relates to our instinctive risk aversion.
 
 
Princess
10:50 / 01.03.08
Threadcromancy, because I have been a cock.

Lat night, I took a 16 year old out into the gay scene of a local city. I was to function as tour guide and chaperone. Having a great time, he's out flirting it up wild. I am dancing by myself and sometimes with this topless woman. All is great. My new perfume is amazing.

Anyway, this 16 year old ahs set it up so that this 20 year old (barman) and this 24 year old (dj) where competing for him. I had discussed the dangerous implications of this with him (re: power, responsibility and dangerous sexual dynamics) but he is above the age of consent and doing nothing that I didn't do. I just keep checking up on him to see it's not going somewhere horrible.

I arrive at the bar just in time to hear the barman tell my friend that the DJ is HIV+ and so the kid shouldn't sleep with him. The delivery is bitchy and unkind. My 16 year old friend responds with laughter and "Oh my god"s. I tell them that they are disgusting. I do not think they here as I walk off pretty sharpish.

I calm down, and go back to the other bar of the club. The 16 year old is there and I am about to start asking him what the fucking fuck he thinks he's doing. He gets there first and passes on the news about the HIV+ dj as a piece of hilarious gossip. I lean in close, tell him I already knew, that I think he (the 16yo) is disgusting and then spit in his face.

I left the kid with the predatory 20 year old, alone in a city he'd never been too before. He was hurt, confused and upset.

I basically assaulted a child, I am a shit.

Any ideas on where to go next with this? Because I think I made the worst of a bad situation and I'm not really sure if there is anything to salvage from this.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:27 / 01.03.08
How do you know the 16-year-old? Is there anyone who isn't you who knows him and could inquire after his wellbeing?
 
 
Tsuga
12:22 / 01.03.08
Yes, absolutely, first thing is to make sure the kid is okay somehow. Straight away. Then you deal with you. I think the "who isn't you" is probably a good idea at this point, also.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:41 / 01.03.08
Short answer?

 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:42 / 01.03.08
Shit. That's a fairly extreme cross post. Not aimed at the serious issue above.
 
 
Liger Null
22:08 / 01.03.08
I would find out if he's OK, Princess, then try and apologize to him.
 
 
petunia
01:07 / 02.03.08
So it's been half a day. Is he okay?
 
 
Princess
11:41 / 02.03.08
He is fine. He had already arranged to stay at the barmans house before I left, so that's what he did.

I've spoken with his mom, and she was very nice about it all. My friend texted him, and he seems pretty normal about it all.

I mean, I'm still a dick. But it doesn't seem to have done much immediate damage.
 
 
Shrug
11:52 / 02.03.08
Sounds like he was a bit of arse too, frankly, even though you didn't deal particularly well with it, I wouldn't crawl too much!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:30 / 02.03.08
Absolutely. If anything, you didn't spit in his too-young-to-drink face enough!

Or, to put it another way - Shrug, what on Earth are you talking about? Or is this just the part where we unthinkingly provide reassurance to people we know, even if it encourages them to behave appallingly in the future?
 
 
Shrug
14:54 / 02.03.08
I'm not really debating the efficacies of spitting in someone's (anyone's) face, Haus. Aside from the appalling reaction on Princess' part, the situation did merit a response. Perhaps a stern talking to or some lessons on the level of decorum present in having a good laugh at the juicy morsel of a HIV+ status (which in my book is pretty abhorrent).
That particular situation would have ticked me off mightily too although I probably wouldn't have reacted similarly. But you know what? Right at that very moment I'd have a lot of difficulty in viewing the kid as something other than a horrible little oik.
Looking back on my previous post my slightly more thought out view didn't come across in thread. And, equally, if I'm still being unreasonable please do tell me why.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:44 / 02.03.08
Well, this kid is 16 years old. Now, I don't know how much experience you have of growing up with non-normative sexuality, so I won't make any assumption about that, but one of the things that I often find in my experience is that one is very short of role models - if you like, of guides to acceptable behaviour.

So, this 16-year old may well have had very limited contact with other gay men in social situations. As such, it seems perfectly credible that he might not have any models for dealing with the information that a person is seropositive, except that which had just been modelled - that is, gossipy and bitchy. Possibly social education for gay teenagers is better in your neck of the woods. Certainly, a good telling-off would be entirely appropriate there.

But but... bringing a teenager to a club then, having provided no oversight on what kind of behaviour is acceptable, spitting in his face and telling him that he is disgusting for ... behaving precisely like the behavioural role-models that you've left him in the care of while off dancing is, I think, sending out pretty mixed signals.

Now, back ontopic, there's the question of regret. I tend not to think that regret is a very useful emotion, except insofar as it drives better behaviour in future. In this case, the useful thing to do is probably to consider what one might do a) with this situation and b) in future situations where learnings might be applied. The (a) there seems, if at all possible, to make the other part aware that this is _not_ how one ought to behave, and that this is acknowledged and regretted, and then to stay as far as possible away from the aforementioned. The (b) might be to consider, if one is invited to act as a tour guide again for the world of club kidding, the planned itinerary or, indeed, whether this cup should pass from one's lips entirely.
 
 
petunia
15:51 / 02.03.08
I suppose it depends on how much of a kid/grown up a 16 y/o is. Judging from the info here, it seems like he's not particuarly educated or worldy...

I mean, if I met a 16 year old kid who thought H+ is an amusing grown-up version of cooties, I'd feel pretty sorry for the guy. You have to be pretty ill-informed to think that kind of stuff.

You've also got to bear in mind that 16 year old kids aren't exactly known for their maturity, especially in situations that are new, exciting and potentially overwhelming.

Along with the fact that this is (seems to be) the kid's first time out at a gay bar and first contact with someone who (he is told) is HIV+, I don't see that we can necessarily expect a mature, considered approach from this guy.
 
 
petunia
15:54 / 02.03.08
X-posted. Haus said it better.
 
 
Shrug
17:16 / 03.03.08
There's certainly an amount of truth in what you both say, Haus and Petunia, perhaps I am being a little wrongheaded. It'd be irksome, though, extremely bloody irksome.
 
  
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