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BFC - The Third Man

 
 
De Selby
03:27 / 22.11.05
Starting a new thread.... cos I was clogging up the old one.
 
 
Hieronymus
15:49 / 30.11.05
Just finished watching this last night. Anyone else ready to jump in?
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
16:07 / 30.11.05
Wow, I didn't even know about all this.

It's been a little while since I've seen it, so I'll save the heavy stuff until later, but I am confident in discussing the final shot, which is far and away the finest in the medium. The zamphir jamming away in the background, the tension, the immaculate framing of the shot (see the Coens beloved swipe of it in Miller's Crossing when the two thugs wait for Tom to return from the Crossing), and the resolution of the shot's storytelling, just flat out brilliant. The movie itself is fine and dandy, but I do have to see it again to refresh my memory. However, the final shot is indelible cinematic history.
 
 
De Selby
23:11 / 30.11.05
Hang on lads! Wait till Monday....
 
 
matthew.
23:18 / 30.11.05
My non-spoiler two-cents: what an interesting and enjoyable film score. Holy shit was that catchy.
 
 
De Selby
04:07 / 05.12.05
Ok so.... The Third Man.

The first thing that I think is worth mentioning is the setting. Reed portrayed a dirty seedy Vienna, which brought to mind the Morocco in Casablanca. Nasty characters, floating around in a city that seems to conceal them.

Actually, quite a few elements of this film reminded me of Casablanca. The same layered story centering on a few characters (with the requisite love interest), planted right in the middle of a war.

My non-spoiler two-cents: what an interesting and enjoyable film score. Holy shit was that catchy.

Catchy as. It reminds me of Nino Rota's score for 8 1/2.
 
 
sleazenation
22:23 / 05.12.05
I love both Casablanca and The Third Man, but I think they are very different films particularly in terms theme and tone. Casablanca is much lighter film (albeit with darker depths hoving just below the surface). It's an optimistic, patriotic propaganda piece aimed at promoting US entry into WWII.

The Third Man on the other hand is a darker film shot through with disappointment, the bitter experience of the war and the kind of people who survived it. There is still humour their, but of a much bleaker, less playful variety...
 
 
X-Himy
00:47 / 06.12.05
I feel like the soundtrack acts as a disorienting force. In a funeral scene, where you expect somber music (or perhaps that is just the force of 60 years), you get upbeat zither music. It is for the audience what the language barrier is for Holly Martins. Martins overcomes, or at least tries to overcome this barrier, by misspeaking everyone's name (Calloway/Callahagn). What does the audience do?
 
 
De Selby
03:42 / 07.12.05
I love both Casablanca and The Third Man, but I think they are very different films particularly in terms theme and tone. Casablanca is much lighter film (albeit with darker depths hoving just below the surface). It's an optimistic, patriotic propaganda piece aimed at promoting US entry into WWII.

I didn't get that feel of optimism from Casablanca. There is only one character that you could define as "good", and I don't walk away from the film feeling uplifted.

Both films have positive endings, but I don't think either film has an ending that is completely satisfactory for the audience. I don't want Lime to die, but I realise that it probably has to happen. Same as the ending in Casablanca, where I really want Bogart and Bergman to end up together, but know that for the sake of the war it ain't gonna happen.

On another note, did anyone notice the strange angles that Reed had the camera on? In some shots the camera is tilted at about 30 degrees! It seems to be only shots containing Lime or Martins, but I can't be sure. I might watch it again and check....
 
 
sleazenation
00:17 / 08.12.05
Casablanca might have few unadulterated 'good' characters, but it has surprizingly few actively evil ones either - and that is kind of the point. It's about redemption rather than romance, with most of the non-nazi characters given a chance to make a stand against the nazis.

Of course much of my love of the film comes from the delightful scoundrel Capt. Renault...

Back to The Third Man...

I hadn't consciously noticed the angles, but the definitely work -particularly in the chase scene...
 
 
De Selby
03:32 / 08.12.05
I hadn't consciously noticed the angles, but the definitely work -particularly in the chase scene...

In some shots it looks like the camera has fallen and landed on an angle and they've left it there. It can be quite disconcerting....
 
 
De Selby
03:50 / 09.12.05
I feel like the soundtrack acts as a disorienting force.

I've been thinking about this.... and more specifically why Reed would want to use music in this way. I don't think the music is so much disorienting, as distancing us from the moral or emotional aspects of the story.

In a funeral scene, where you expect somber music (or perhaps that is just the force of 60 years), you get upbeat zither music.

Exactly. Its almost like he's forcing us to view the events with an emotional detachment, maybe to promote a more intellectual approach?

It is for the audience what the language barrier is for Holly Martins. Martins overcomes, or at least tries to overcome this barrier, by misspeaking everyone's name (Calloway/Callahagn). What does the audience do?

I don't understand what you mean here. Could you clarify? I think Martin's language barrier prevents him from being involved with most characters, and even the story he's involved in. I don't think the music works in the same way....
 
 
sleazenation
09:00 / 09.12.05
I actually really appreciated the various language barriers reinforcing the point made in the opening voiceover that none of the allies shared a common tongue, except for a smattering of German...
 
 
X-Himy
10:24 / 09.12.05
This is sort of what I mean about the language barrier. In Vienna, there are four zones, and the closest we get to a common language is a pidgin of German (it should be noted that Calloway and the Russian authorities communicate just fine in English, but I think that was for our benefit). But Martins doesn't even speak German, and is forced to rely on Anna for the most part. He is trying to solve a crime where he cannot directly interrogate most of the people that he wants to. It is interesting to watch him get more frustrated and rely more and more on Anna as translator. As a part of the movie, I feel like the language barrier disorients us as much as it disorients Martins. At least for those of us that are not familiar with multiple languages, there is a whole large backstory that is somewhat hidden.

I feel like in reaction to this inability to communicate, Martins begins to twist the language, by changing people's names. Calloway becomes Callahagn for a while, Winkel becomes Vinkel I believe (or vice versa). Martins is doing this to try and leverage power in some small way. But how is the audience able to gain the same power? Or are we just as powerless as Martins is throughout the movie.
 
 
sleazenation
11:11 / 09.12.05
I just read Martins's Failure to get names right as a symptom of his clueless ignorance about the wider world, similarly his lack of knowledge of other writers outside of the western genre... Although Crabbin appears equally clueless...
 
 
X-Himy
16:15 / 09.12.05
While I might not have much evidence for this, I definitely feel that getting the names wrong was a deliberate action on the part of Martin's, at least after the first time. Because he would correctly refer to him as Calloway to Anna, but then call him Callahagn to his face.

Martins doesn't consider himself a writer per se, the westerns are just something to pay the bills.
 
 
Shrug
17:07 / 09.12.05
On another note, did anyone notice the strange angles that Reed had the camera on? In some shots the camera is tilted at about 30 degrees! It seems to be only shots containing Lime or Martins, but I can't be sure. I might watch it again and check....

Yes throughout the film nearly every angle is slightly canted. These canted angles are everpresent during the initial scenes where Holly begins to question people and become intensified during the final chase scenes. All I suppose to emphasise Holly's confusion, to obfuscate people's intentions and/or the world-gone-madness of it all.
It also makes everything in the films closing sequence, with those straight vertical trees and simple perspective, seem so very much resolved.

The mise-en-scene is full of noirish elements though; people are often viewed through meshes/bars/grates/or glass panes, the use of key-light to create shadow effects, fog etc.

Martins doesn't consider himself a writer per se, the westerns are just something to pay the bills.

I found the reference of The Western Genre through H.Martin's writing to be very interesting. In a city, like Vienna, divided into zones (German, Russian, American, English) I think it becomes a very important element to the narrative. Martin's belief system (American: that is so perfectly encompassed/mythologised by the Western) supposedly heavily moral and without shades of grey is contrasted harshly with Lime's ideology which I believe is portrayed to be that of a corrupt communist state. See Lime's speech to Holly in the Big Wheel about the unimportance of the individual, how people are mugs, he conflates his own belief system with that of Communism explicitly.

"In general nobody thinks in terms of human beings. Governments don't, so why should we? They talk about the people, and the Proletariat... I talk about the suckers and the mugs. It's the same thing. They have their five-year plan, and so have I."

I really found the underground chase scenes to be very dramatic too all that raging water, cuts from longshot to close up, crazy architecture. Good stuff!
 
 
sleazenation
18:00 / 09.12.05
Oh and the saddest moment in the film when we see Lime's fingertips poking up through the grate while the cold wind blows through. By then we know that Lime will never make it out of the sewers alive...
 
 
De Selby
03:37 / 11.12.05
X-Himy : I understand what you mean, but I don't understand how the music is to the audience what the language barrier is to Martins.

Did anyone else feel that Anna was taking a certain amount of creative liberty with the translation? Does anyone have a way of verifying that she was actually translating correctly? Sometimes it seems she's most definitely not...

I totally agree with X-Himy regarding Martins deliberately mispronouncing names - but why does he do it?


I really found the underground chase scenes to be very dramatic too all that raging water, cuts from longshot to close up, crazy architecture. Good stuff!

Absolutely! Especially how the distance between Lime and the police shrinks in a non-linear way. The editing reminds me of the shower scene in psycho - inching closer to an inevitable finale - just slower.
 
 
netbanshee
14:42 / 11.12.05
It seems that everybody is reacting strongly to all of the "inconsistencies" in the movie - a divided city, the background audio choices, the language and cultural barriers, the shots and textures, the pacing and dramatic character introduction. I like how dynamic it makes the film and how it's difficult to make definitive choices about the situation. It balances well when you add it all up too.

I also wondered about the translations the people were giving. What basis was there to actually trust them? The only person I could get a sense of honesty from (even though that's not the case) was the older man who witnessed some of the incident.
 
 
De Selby
23:54 / 14.12.05
Oh and the saddest moment in the film when we see Lime's fingertips poking up through the grate while the cold wind blows through. By then we know that Lime will never make it out of the sewers alive...

I watched the ending again last night, and this time I didn't feel sad so much for Lime, but for the struggle that he represents. The reason I lost sympathy for him (before I was against his death) is that a few moments earlier, he shoots one of the police officers (the one who likes Martins' Westerns, I forget his name). This character was essentially a good character, working for the baddies, and his death represented for me an unnecessary and selfish killing, which Lime was obviously guilty of.

Viewing the ending like that, its almost like the whole film is building up to that point where we have to decide whether or not we will side with Lime. After he shoots the officer his fate is sealed, I'd decided that its good for him to die, and it seemed Martins' had completely lost faith in him. The tone of the ending changes from frantic to sombre and we get that sad image of fingers poking through a drain.


What a film!
 
 
Shrug
00:35 / 15.12.05
I watched the ending again last night, and this time I didn't feel sad so much for Lime, but for the struggle that he represents. The reason I lost sympathy for him (before I was against his death) is that a few moments earlier, he shoots one of the police officers (the one who likes Martins' Westerns, I forget his name). This character was essentially a good character, working for the baddies, and his death represented for me an unnecessary and selfish killing, which Lime was obviously guilty of.

Have I completely misinterpreted the film or missed some crucial plot point? Surely Callaghan and his police could never be described by a term like "baddie"? The film was clearly about an opposition of ideology (that of Holly and that of Lime). The real conflict was generated however by these two characters' friendships. Thus creating a dramatic tension as to whether Holly would value friendship over morality.

Anna states Holly's own dilemma perfectly in this line:
I don't want him any more. I don't want to see him or hear him, but he is still part of me, that's a fact. I couldn't do a thing to harm him.

I think of Holly as the main protagonist and as the character with which we are meant to identify most. His belief system is clearly stated through his writing of The Western. A clear cut good/bad viewpoint with which he trys to operate (unsuccessfully at times) through the morally ambiguous and often times confusing world of Vienna. Because of this viewpoint and because of Lime's actions (the scenes in the meningitis ward, the abandonment of Anna, let alone numerous murders and double dealings) Holly is (and concurrently "we" are) left with no other choice but to deem Lime morally reprehensible.

Earlier on in the film Anna suggests the simplicity of his viewpoint (possibly as a writer of The Western genre) and provides an emotional counterpoint:
Oh, please, for heaven's sake. Stop making him in your image. Harry was real. He wasn't just your friend...and my lover. He was Harry."

Holly steadfastly disagrees:
Whoever killed him, there was some sort of justice. Maybe I'd have killed him myself.

By this same logic Callaghan/Calloway as upholders of the law could only be categorised as morally right if not likeable but never "a baddie"!
And once again by this same logic we are meant to like Lime (that irrascible bastard) but find him morally bankrupt and thus deserving of punishment.
(Well at least this is the ideological structure I had thought the film presents)
 
 
De Selby
06:57 / 15.12.05
Have I completely misinterpreted the film or missed some crucial plot point? Surely Callaghan and his police could never be described by a term like "baddie"? The film was clearly about an opposition of ideology (that of Holly and that of Lime). The real conflict was generated however by these two characters' friendships. Thus creating a dramatic tension as to whether Holly would value friendship over morality.

I thought the police were just as bad as the criminals, except they had the disadvantage of being on the Nazi side of the war. To me they represented control which is never good. "Baddies" was supposed to be a simple humourous description, but ends up being lazy.

I think of Holly as the main protagonist and as the character with which we are meant to identify most. His belief system is clearly stated through his writing of The Western. A clear cut good/bad viewpoint with which he trys to operate (unsuccessfully at times) through the morally ambiguous and often times confusing world of Vienna. Because of this viewpoint and because of Lime's actions (the scenes in the meningitis ward, the abandonment of Anna, let alone numerous murders and double dealings) Holly is (and concurrently "we" are) left with no other choice but to deem Lime morally reprehensible.

The way I saw it, that decision was not final until he shot that officer. I saw the film as basically a negotiation for whether or not Lime was morally bad and should die which is essentially what you're saying. Obviously he was a "bad" character, but the environment in which he operates excuses him to a point. But when he shoots that officer there is no hope for his redemption.

Another thing which I've thought of, is that up till that point we don't SEE Lime commit any crimes, we only get evidence of it.

By this same logic Callaghan/Calloway as upholders of the law could only be categorised as morally right if not likeable but never "a baddie"!

Really? You thought so? I felt they were just on the opposite side to Lime, but just still bad.

The whole thing could be viewed as Chaos(Lime) vs Control(Police).
 
 
sleazenation
07:56 / 15.12.05
I thought the police were just as bad as the criminals, except they had the disadvantage of being on the Nazi side of the war. To me they represented control which is never good. "Baddies" was supposed to be a simple humourous description, but ends up being lazy.

I think it is an obsurd overstatement to claim that blackmarketeers were 'on the side of the Nazis' - the Blackmarketeers were always on their own side first and formost, beyond that allegences were mutable - a point underlined by the allusion Holly makes to being left to face the music while Lime sliped out a back door before...

I also have problems with your description of the Calloway and Paine as represent[ing] control which is never good. Surely What they represent is authority, and a benevolent authority at that. Despite Calloway's terrier-like fixation on Lime, the basis of that fixation is the damage, pain, death and, in Calloway's eyes, murder that Lime has committed in his penicillin racket.

And of course even before Lime kills Paine he has already been behind the murder of Harbins.

I'd agree that Paine's death is a turning point, but it is only a turning point because it forces Holly's hand - after witnessing what Lime did to Paine, Holly can no longer ignore Lime's numerous wrongs...


Oh and as a trivia aside The thrid man includes performances by two actors who later played the role of M in the Bond films - Paine is one of them and an unnamed private who doesn't understand the meaning of 'Protocol' is the other...
 
 
Spaniel
09:00 / 15.12.05
represent[ing] control which is never good

Never? I don't think it's pedantic to suggest that's a ridiculous statement.
 
 
sleazenation
09:13 / 15.12.05
Well, quite.
 
 
Shrug
22:27 / 18.12.05
The whole thing could be viewed as Chaos(Lime) vs Control(Police).

I can see that element too I think. Lime was such a random and important element of the narrative in that he precipitated most if not all of the events in the film. Everything else seemed to strive to renew that structure only for Lime to disrupt it again.
 
 
De Selby
02:48 / 19.12.05
I think I need to stop posting at work, and wait till I have time to edit posts before sending them...

Sleazenation:

I think it is an obsurd overstatement to claim that blackmarketeers were 'on the side of the Nazis'

I didn't mean the Blackmarketeers, but the police who were on the Nazi's side. Its a bit of an overstatement either way tho, I was trying vainly to justify my point. Sorry - my wording is confusing - I didn't get a chance to read what I'd written before sending...

I also have problems with your description of the Calloway and Paine as represent[ing] control which is never good. Surely What they represent is authority, and a benevolent authority at that. Despite Calloway's terrier-like fixation on Lime, the basis of that fixation is the damage, pain, death and, in Calloway's eyes, murder that Lime has committed in his penicillin racket.

But look at HOW he goes about it. Notice that he doesn't tell Martin anything until he absolutely has to and needs his assistance. I got the feeling that there was something personal in his "terrier-like fixation", that goes beyond a concern for law and order.

Boboss:
represent[ing] control which is never good

Never? I don't think it's pedantic to suggest that's a ridiculous statement.


Well I did mean within the context of movies, but yeah it was a ridiculous overstatement. Thinking about it seriously though, it is rare to see anything representing control portrayed in a positive light in a movie.

Although I'm sure everyone will prove me wrong
 
 
GogMickGog
15:24 / 11.01.06
One of the things I love about this film is the way Holly's American, Old west mentality is utterly inverted (inversion being, I think, a theme in the film right from the point where the porter mixes up heaven and hell) and his final 'heroic' moment is that of gunning down a dying man who was once his friend.

An utterly, utterly wonderful film. Greene's script is shot through with a sense of moral corruption and rot-are we not utterly charmed by Welles the moment the light falls on his face? The sewer scene, and Holly chased by the goons both dwell, tellingly, I think, in the ruined areas and underground of the city, representing perhaps a journey into the savagery which lies beneath the civil veneer with to we are first introduced (by which I mean Kurtz, Pepesco et al, and their apparent warmth towards Holly).

It is at once a straight up thriller, and an artful reflection on modern morality, a combination so frequently done badly.

Ace.
 
 
Anewbiz
22:21 / 28.02.06
Alex said "the struggle that he represents" he being Harry Lime. A] explain that more, B] even if Alex didn't consider that a loaded phrase, I think there's a damn important notion behind a struggle Lime and others who fake their deaths represent. Ha. No, but they would be resourceful, connected, maybe rich--are they doing it to escape "income tax"? Oh, in another Orson movie, "Lady From Shanghai (1948) a character also wants to fake his death.

So, my highlights of "The Third Man":

The major Orson Welles dialogue. Holly Martins (Joseph Cotten) insists on meeting Harry Lime (Orson), who was thought to be dead. You know the movie--Lime trafficked in diluted medicine and kids and others died as a result. Well Lime revealed to Martins that he was alive before the following exchange occurs, which takes place high up in a ferris wheel car:
MARTINS (Cotten): Have you ever seen any of your victims?
LIME (Orson Welles): You know, I never feel comfortable on these sort of things. Victims? Don't be melodramatic. Tell me. Would you really feel any pity if one of those dots stopped moving forever? If I offered you twenty thousand pounds for every dot that stopped, would you really, old man, tell me to keep my money, or would you calculate how many dots you could afford to spare? Free of income tax, old man. Free of income tax - the only way you can save money nowadays.

LIME [to MARTINS, they're back down on the ground]: Holly, I would like to cut you in, old man. Nobody left in Vienna I can really trust, and we have always done everything together. When you make up your mind, send me a message. I'll meet you any place, any time ... Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly.

AS Grant Morrison says, you need the world to experience World Wars so it doesn't have to again. So if peace yields a cuckoo clock and a spike of violence allowed for a dip for "good" things, the arts and peace, a return to strife (though in less powerful waves) is inevitable--at least for the next 5 years and 11 months, if you buy into 2012. So was Orson playing a globalist? Obviously your take on it is all you've got.

Just as auxiliary additions to this post, more dialogue from this scene, from before Lime says so long to Martins:
MARTINS: I was at your funeral.
LIME: It was pretty smart, wasn't it? Oh, the same old indigestion, Holly. These are the
only things that help - these tablets. These are the last. Can't get them anywhere in Europe any
more.

LIME: Do you expect me to give myself up?
MARTINS: Why not?
LIME: "It's a far better thing that I do..." Holly, you and I aren't heroes, the world doesn't
make any heroes outside of our stories. I've got to be careful. I'm only safe in the Russian Zone.
I'm safe as long as they can use me.
MARTINS: As long as they can use you?
HARRY: I wish I could get rid of this thing.

MARTINS: What did you expect me to be, part of your...
LIME: Part? You can have any part you want, so long as you don't interfere. I have never
cut you out of anything yet.

LIME: There's no proof against me, besides you.
MARTINS: I should be pretty easy to get rid of.
LIME: Pretty easy.
MARTINS: I wouldn't be too sure. I carry a gun.
LIME: I don't think they'd look for a bullet wound after you'd hit that ground.

LIME: Oh, Holly, what fools we are, talking to each other this way. As though I would do anything to you, or you to me. You're just a little mixed up about things in general. Nobody thinks in terms of human beings. Governments don't, so why
should we? They talk about the people and the proletariat. I talk about the suckers and the mugs. It's the same thing. They have their five year plans, and so have I.
MARTINS: You used to believe in God.
LIME: I still do believe in God, old man. I believe in God and Mercy and all that. The dead
are happier dead. They don't miss much here, poor devils.


LETS DO more Orson film reviews.
 
 
De Selby
00:51 / 01.03.06
Alex said "the struggle that he represents" he being Harry Lime. A] explain that more

Lime represents chaos struggling against the forces of control (in this case the police, and the post-war environment).

B] even if Alex didn't consider that a loaded phrase, I think there's a damn important notion behind a struggle Lime and others who fake their deaths represent. Ha. No, but they would be resourceful, connected, maybe rich--are they doing it to escape "income tax"?

Its funny, but economics doesn't even come into my reading of the film. I guess maybe thats why I'm more sympathetic to Lime than I should be.

LETS DO more Orson film reviews.

Sure, go ahead and revive the BFC main thread then....
 
  
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