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Constant Gardener/ Pharmaceuticals

 
 
GogMickGog
17:50 / 21.11.05

Further to my post in Film & T.V. I was just wondering if any of the knowledgable among you could tell me how much truth there is in the claims made by Le Carré's book, and the film adaptation, i.e. that pharmaceuticals companies are knowingly road-testing dangerous drugs on the population of Africa, and other 3rd world nations.

If so, can any of you direct me as to where I might go to do get involved?
Thank
 
 
Char Aina
18:10 / 21.11.05
you might wantto have a read of 'the billion dollar molecule'.
i havent yet picked it up, but a friend of mine who has just finished his degree reccomended it.
he claimed it was an accurate portrayal of the pharmaceutical industry told in a way that keeps you turning the pages.

i have no idea about the veracity of le carre's claims, but i reckon if there is any truth it would be mentioned in there.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:33 / 21.11.05
I worked for pharmaceutical R&D for five years. I'm quite prepared to answer any specific questions.

Do pharma corps test drugs in Africa? Yes. Does that make much difference? No, because they're purely trying to get past US regulatory bodies, who are concerned with the structure of the trials. A poor trial is a poor trial, no matter where it's conducted.
 
 
Slim
00:50 / 22.11.05
The more important point is why they made a movie out of a book that wasn't that good in the first place.
 
 
Char Aina
01:35 / 22.11.05
perhaps.
the standard of writing might be better addressed by those users who visit the books, criticism & writing forum, though.

were you involved in the development of tests, fridge?
or was your role in the company removed from the drug development itself?
 
 
w1rebaby
07:45 / 22.11.05
I was in the analysis part of it. There are a large number of people involved in designing a "test" as a whole; there are a lot of different parts.

I've not read or seen this Constant Gardener thing so I don't know exactly what it's referring to. If it's talking about some sort of secret testing... well, they don't initiate you into Level 5 until you've made the correct marmoset sacrifices, so I wouldn't know. But I know a reasonable amount about yer standard clinical trials and the R&D process as a whole.
 
 
Sjaak at the Shoe Shop
08:55 / 22.11.05
Fridge, there are two issues really,

one is the dumping of over-date medicins in Africa,
but the one that the book focuses on is testing of medicins on 'live' cases, in this particular instance TB (which is really on the rise in Africa, also in combination with Aids).

Personal opinion is that the book does paint a very unpleasant but convincing picture. I haven't done a search for other sources though.
 
 
w1rebaby
11:17 / 22.11.05
but the one that the book focuses on is testing of medicins on 'live' cases, in this particular instance TB

Well, testing drugs on people who actually have a disease is hardly unheard of, but I assume there's more to it than that, otherwise it wouldn't make much of a story.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:03 / 23.11.05
I was just wondering if any of the knowledgable among you could tell me how much truth there is in the claims made by Le Carré's book, and the film adaptation, i.e. that pharmaceuticals companies are knowingly road-testing dangerous drugs on the population of Africa, and other 3rd world nations.

The book is a work of fiction, and it does not as such make claims. However, if you're looking to get involved, you may wish to start here. You may also wish to consider the case of Nancy Olivieri.

fridge:

The core suggestion in the story is that a drug is being pushed through approval despite evidence that it is harmful, and that this evidence is being suppressed - hence the relevance of the Olivieri case. I would also direct you to Monsanto's rBGH disaster: despite evidence that rBGH causes increased levels of IGF-1 in milk (IGF-1 increases your risk of breast and prostate cancer) and also causes mastitis in cows, which means that the milk often contains increased somatic cell counts (i.e. pus and bacteria). Monsanto, obviously, have no need to kill anyone to deal with this problem, because they appear content to ignore the outcry instead. (Last I checked, they were at war with the EU because we rotten Europeans refuse to allow rBGH in our BSE-ridden herds).

It strikes me though, with due respect to you, fridge, that if we were discussing the oil business or the diamond trade, the idea that a large company operating in the third world might cut corners and obliquely sponsor local toughs to cover up the resulting mess would not be terribly hard to swallow. Why would we see the pharmas as any different?

More:

Oxfam review (useful links)

MSF

No Free Lunch - health care providers against Pharmaceutical freebies

Health Action International

Public Citizen
 
 
w1rebaby
12:27 / 23.11.05
I'm not sure whether you're suggesting that I am somehow being unduly trusting when it comes to pharmaceutical corporations, but I can assure you that I am certainly not. There is, however, the question of realism. Normally when a pharma corp wants to push something unhealthy or unnecessary through, for instance, it uses political influence to do so; they spend a lot of money lobbying and donating to the right people. Faking the actual evidence on a clinical trial basis has problems:

* There are a very large number of people involved in trials, investigators, doctors, lab workers, statisticians, ethics committee members etc, most of whom have no interest in bringing a dodgy drug to market (they're not the ones getting X billion dollars for it) and it only takes one person to blow the whistle. Believe me, morale is not exactly at "fanatical devotion" level amongst clinical trials workers.

* The regulatory bodies have access to all the data themselves, not just the summaries, and they're not just paper-pushers, they're scientists and statisticians themselves.

* There are lots of different centres involved in a trial, because individual centres can't recruit patients fast enough, often around the world. This would mean lots of goons. If problems show up they're unlikely to just be in one place.

This doesn't mean that it's an impossible situation to have thugs intimidating people by any means, but you'd have to set the scene quite well for it to be believable; there would have to be lots of special circumstances which explained why they couldn't achieve their goals by more traditional and safer methods. If I were running an evil pharma corp and I wanted to get something dangerous through regulatory bodies for some reason, I would use my allies in Washington in concert with other industries to put political pressure on the regulatory bodies themselves to require a lower standard of proof and let the thing through anyway, which as you point out is the route that seems to have been taken with rBGH. It's quite easy to ignore studies done after the fact as long as you can keep publicity to a minimum, and you can also use influence and money to discourage researchers from looking into the matter and journals from publishing the results. There's a massive amount of money in cattle, and it's friendly with the government.

If I were going to construct a situation where a corp might threaten people in the course of a cover-up relating to drug trials, I doubt it would have anything to do with the sort of clinical trials that go to the FDA. It would be research-related, unofficial stuff, performed in a remote area to get round ethics rules, involving unethical practices like deliberately infecting people with something, hero uncovers dastardly plot, intimidation ensues.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:45 / 23.11.05
All of which is true, but doesn't seem to be enough to stop it happening from time to time. Again, it happens in other industries with the same complications (one thinks of tobacco). Have a poke around those links and see what you think. Or maybe see the movie - much of what you're talking about here is accounted for in it. Although everyone, please remember - it's a hundred minutes of fiction, not a legal presentation.
 
 
w1rebaby
16:08 / 23.11.05
Stop what happening time and time again? "cut(ting) corners and obliquely sponsor(ing) local toughs to cover up the resulting mess"?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:15 / 23.11.05
Fudging or (perhaps) faking the results of clinical trials, hiding unwanted results, intimidating researchers who suggest a given drug is not all it's cracked up to be.

No, I'm not suggesting they routinely kill people off, although as I say, I don't find it as implausible as you seem to that, for example, DrugCo XYZ's operation in Sudan, on finding a given local agitator (call him Bill) is asking questions about the side effects of an experimental drug, asks the local police chief to put a stop to it, and the guy calls a few people and Bill accidentally stabs himself while shaving. Which is the book's depiction of corporate murders, in crude terms.
 
 
w1rebaby
18:46 / 23.11.05
Fudging or (perhaps) faking the results of clinical trials, hiding unwanted results, intimidating researchers who suggest a given drug is not all it's cracked up to be.

Okay, and where do I say that any of that is implausible or that something "stops that happening"? I'm having trouble connecting your post to mine. I'm talking about violent intervention relating to drug trials. In fact, I quite explicitly talked about some of that as going on as opposed to said practices.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
06:24 / 24.11.05
I took your objection to the notion of faking evidence as such - if I was wrong, I'm sorry. There's an element of frustration in talking about this when you haven't seen the movie, but I think you're reading a great deal more spleen in my posts than I'm putting in.
 
  
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