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Wolverine - Why are his antics acceptable?

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22:47 / 20.11.05

Wolverine, I think we can all agree, has had a bad year, this year. He doesn't really seem to care about anything, any more. All he seems to think about is blood. The blood of his enemies. Which, ok, I mean fair enough, but, the satirical point aside, Captain America in WW2 must have done far, far worse. He must have really slaughtered those nazis. But it gets papered over.

23:06 / 20.11.05

I only pray that you have enough dignity remaining you to be mortified by this thread when you sober up.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

23:18 / 20.11.05

I think Wolverine could do with being sent backwards in time but forwards in time (yeah, yeah) to the 30th Century to join the Legion of Super-Heroes back when Lightning Lad was Lightning Boy and they had to wear jetpacks instead of flight rings. That would learn him real good. And he should be made to wear a Light Lass costume.

23:28 / 20.11.05

Wolverine's ultraviolence is something that's glossed over in most comics. Captain America and Professor X both seem to have no problem over-looking Wolverines murderous nature (not that he doesn't have his nice points) as long as it helps their own agendas.

Keith, like a scientist

23:54 / 20.11.05

plus, he's popular with readers who buy the books. so, you know, that makes everything better "ok."

00:26 / 21.11.05

but could superman beat up the hulk?

00:49 / 21.11.05

could Superman outrun the Flash?

01:12 / 21.11.05

I'm amazed that Wolverine hasn't gone soft. Or more soft. Or more hard. Ah screw it. He's a fictional character in comic books. I'm going to work, now....

Superman could never beat up TEH HULK. Never.

01:15 / 21.11.05

could Superman outrun the Flash?

No! Don't be silly. If Superman could outrun Flash, then Flash would have nothing to do in the league, and that would be silly!

rabideyemovement

01:48 / 21.11.05

Could Wolverine outrun Black Panther?

01:51 / 21.11.05

Nah, Wolverine smokes too many cigars - OMG - that's so hardcore.

02:52 / 21.11.05

Of course Wolverine can out run Black Panther.
Bestthereisatwhathedoesandwhathedoesisverysnikt

02:53 / 21.11.05

Alex, you want Wolverine to be *in* the Punisher?

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

03:06 / 21.11.05

It'd be like military porn with spandex instead of fatigues, and more of an shoddy, stilted internal monologue.

03:24 / 21.11.05

Wolverine isn't a good fit for the Avengers. He's in there to sell books and because the writer of the book thinks he's cool. Bendis hasn't really done a great job with New Avengers at all, IMO.

03:27 / 21.11.05

I don't think Cap ever really slaughtered any Nazis, but he definitely ruffed 'em up a bit.

Keith, like a scientist

04:10 / 21.11.05

Bucky is incredibly scary looking on that cover...man, what a freak.

04:31 / 21.11.05

Frank Castle has hygene issues, plus he farts alot.

Wolvernie is Canadian.

05:21 / 21.11.05

Bucky didn't die in WW2, he was actually Prime Minister of Norway for a while around 1990! Then he died.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:30 / 21.11.05

So, anyway. Wolverine. He's a badass, and part of that badassiness is his readiness to kill in the pursuit of his objectives. Certainly in earlier eras of the X-Men, there have been attempts to stop him from doing this, to the point where at one stage the team leaders would demand that he approach certain fights (with less threatening opponents) sans claws. This approach seems to have gone by the wayside somewhat, and in New X-Men we saw him kill baseline humans.

Now, killing in the line of duty probably is all right in the setup of the New Avengers, since it is in some sense a SHIELD operation, although in another sense it's a gang of private citizens in a clubhouse, but it is also pretty clear that it would not be approved of. Especally in the context o f the apparently vewry high bodycount in Millar's treatment, it seems people should really be quite a lot more wary of him than they appear to be. So, back to the original question - is the idea put forward by Tony stark of Wolverine as being a useful performer of actions that the other Avengers would refuse to take justification for his membership, or moral NIMBYism?

13:01 / 21.11.05

It's a problem, I suspect, that's going to return to haunt them.

It would be one (morally dubious, even then) thing for the Avengers to enlist Wolverine to 'go places' where the rest of the team for whatever reason aren't prepared to go (although I maintain that Captain America, whether or not he filled in anyone himself, *must* have been quite happy to have had a beer - or a glass of milk perhaps, in his case, tellingly, - in the officers mess with people who quite cheerfully had done, and were planning on doing it again the next day,) on a one-time-only basis, but it seems to be quite another for them to have him there permanently.

Wolverine is someone who is prepared to kill in what he perceives to be the line of his duty, yes, but then, who is defining what his duty actually is? Only him. In this respect, it's difficult to see much clear ground between him and Frank Castle. Except that Castle uses guns, mainly, of course, whereas Wolverine uses his claws.

I don't know about anyone else, but I know who I'd rather hang around with. I can picture a set of circumstances where I'd use a gun, personally (in fact I can picture that almost all of the time) but people who use knives and such just seem a bit, I don't know, ickier somehow.

13:05 / 21.11.05

The Punisher has been know to use knives. Especially when he wants to torture people for information.

I think the reason why Wolverine's antic are acceptable is because Marvel knows it their most popular character, so they'll ignore any inconsistencies between characters, and ignore any ethics. "He's a samurai - he has to kill, so it's alright."

Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER

14:16 / 21.11.05

Although, given a choice between Wolverine and Frank Castle for my superhuman assault team, I have a feeling I'd choose the one that's, you know, invulnerable and can cut through walls and things. As opposed to the one who can shoot alright, froth a lot and look glassy-eyed. I suspect being supposedly unkillable and thebestatwhatyoudobub gives you a little room for moral turpitude here and there. Furthermore, isn't this a team with Tony Stark on it? Drunks in cars are bad enough...drunks in mecha-suits that can chuck busses around are almost certainly worse (although more likely to indicate).

14:18 / 21.11.05

Wolverine doesn't use guns because he's Canadian. He's probably got comprehensive medical insurance too.

A

14:47 / 21.11.05

So the "healing factor" was a clever metaphor all along? I like it.

15:11 / 21.11.05

That's the one, bub.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:21 / 21.11.05

suspect being supposedly unkillable and thebestatwhatyoudobub gives you a little room for moral turpitude here and there. Furthermore, isn't this a team with Tony Stark on it? Drunks in cars are bad enough...drunks in mecha-suits that can chuck busses around are almost certainly worse (although more likely to indicate).

Way-ull:

a) This Tony Stark is the clean and sober model - Ultimate Tony Stark is the wetbrain.
b) Surely indestructability provides even less excuse for moral turpitude? If there is no realistic way that you can be killed by most threats, then the defence of self-preservation becomes unconvincing - certainly in the face of most threats, Wolverine will have no excuse for using deadly force beyond whimsy. What's his excuse for killing? That otherwise he might be temporarily in pain? Wussy.

15:39 / 21.11.05

Yes. And at least The Punisher has, I think, a fairly understandable series of issues with the criminal underworld. What's Wolverine's excuse though? Surely, if he's that angry about having been turned into the ultimate killing machine by teh man without his consent, then at least one of the ways he could go about expressing his dissatisfaction would be to, y'know, try and control himself a bit?

16:37 / 21.11.05

That's what Kitty Pryde was designed for originally. Claremont added Kitty because a) they needed to access the teen girl demographic and b) they needed to soften Wolverine's image for said demographic. She was one of the most popular characters until she stopped being awkward-looking and became a normal looking adult (or in the comic world, became hot)

Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER

17:59 / 21.11.05

a) This Tony Stark is the clean and sober model - Ultimate Tony Stark is the wetbrain.
Ah.

b) Surely indestructability provides even less excuse for moral turpitude? If there is no realistic way that you can be killed by most threats, then the defence of self-preservation becomes unconvincing - certainly in the face of most threats, Wolverine will have no excuse for using deadly force beyond whimsy. What's his excuse for killing? That otherwise he might be temporarily in pain? Wussy.
Oh, certainly not on any moral basis, I was more thinking that the use of an indestructible killing machine on short, hairy legs more than makes up for having to occasionally turn a blank eye to a couple of perforated supervillains, on a pragmatic basis. Or something.

18:07 / 21.11.05

Back in the early days of the Claremont run, the X-Men do take issue with having Wolverine on the team, and the morally dubious nature of his actions. Around the 140s and 150s, Angel joins up, but then leaves because he can't condone working with Wolverine. I think the goal was to try to reform Wolverine and help bring him under control, but around the 160s, culminating with the Mutant Massacre, everyone got morally compromised, and everyone pretty much accepted the kill if you have to model. That development made sense, however, eventually Wolverine stopped being a developing character and was just a 'cool' character used to sell books.

20:38 / 21.11.05

Yep, once Storm had killed it all fell by the wayside, and then it was only really Cyclops and Kitty Pryde who had non-killing issues.

21:08 / 21.11.05

Stupid question but has the Punisher ever killed anyone who wasn't a rapist/pusher/crime boss/murderer? I've only read Garth Ennis' stuff and I remember reading an early spiderman comic when I was wee and he was shooting at someone who was littering.

21:35 / 21.11.05

He was drugged by some badguy when he did that, I think.

Is there something in the Avengers charter or mandate or something about not killing?

And, I dunno, maybe this has been answered in the comics I haven't read, but why does Wolverine want to be an Avenger? And Spidey?

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:39 / 21.11.05

Wolverine for the advancement of mutantkind, I think. Spider-Man because it's the closest thing superheroes get to a gold star, and because it's much easier to get in than the Fantastic Four.

On a brief detour, the whole "Kitty Pryde was there to get the teenage girls" thing - given that at about the same time that Claremont introduced Kitty Pryde he also started to get really interested in bondage, mind control and corsetry, did that work?

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