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Underground > Books, Criticism & Writing >

System of the World (spoilers)

14:10 / 15.11.05

I am re-reading this again and realised I haven't seen a thread on it, or the trilogy as a whole. Here's the old Quicksilver and Confusion threads, what do people think?

I really like the whole cycle, I found it engaging and witty, excellently plotted with some great action scenes, well researched and evocative of the period, had strong characters that make you care about them, and it was novel in that it's a sci-fi style historical fiction.

It was quite fat, with occasional parts that were a bit slow, but if you share any of the author's interests (cryptography, philosophy, the evolution of science, pirates fighting on the high seas) it's ace. Anyone else enjoy it? Anyone hate it? Get bored during the explanations of Monadology and the calculus dispute?

(also noticed this thread- Fantastic histories- pros and cons)

15:58 / 15.11.05

After 2,5 months I´m almost finished with the Confusion. And I´ve already bought the last Baroque Book, so I´ll start reading it any day now.

It might take me another three months reading it (normally I can read 100 pages per novel and day, but too much is happening in these books, so it´s 20 pages every two days).

Today I read a part that happened at the Schloß Charlottenburg, which is just ten minutes from here, and looks like it must have looked at that time. So that was a treat that motivated me to carry on.

But I experienced these books really as some kind of marathon, so I hope, there´ll be a payoff with System of the World.

16:19 / 15.11.05

I used to enjoy Stephenson, but just can't read him anymore. This latest trilogy in particular excels in all the things I can't stand about his writing -- too fat, characters who gurgitate information rather than speak to one another, infallible yet geeky protagonists, etc. I tried re-reading Snow Crash the other month and couldn't even finish it. I believe it was the New York Times (or Kirkus reviews) that claimed book 2 of the Baroque cycle was "pointless," because it was a lot of stuff that ultimately led nowhere -- except to the next massive volume.

18:50 / 15.11.05

I had a tough time with Baroque Cycle too. Normally I read really fast, but I was just bogged down by all three volumes. Here's how it went for each book: I'd buy it, be super excited and read about 200 pages. Then I'd let the book sit for a month or more and then I'd pick it up again only to have the same problem occur.

But when I finished the final volume, I was completely elated. The pay-off at the end is phenomenable. It makes up for the character archetypes he reuses and the technobabble that everybody vomits. At least there's quite a few funny bits. Jack and Eliza have some howlingly funny conversations.

19:43 / 15.11.05

Now that´s what I wanted to hear!

The second volume got so frustrating. I´m a Jack fan, and it was getting tiresome that whenever he got lucky, you could be sure that in the next chapter he´d be in deep trouble again. Like a 17th century Donald Duck.

21:41 / 15.11.05

buttergun - when you think about it, most of Cryptonomicon was completely useless. Most of the fun of that book came from the digressions. I guess, Kirkus or whatever did not appreciate the meandering-ness of the plot, which was ultimately the point.

Mistofelees - keep at 'er, my friend. I swear the last 300 pages of the final volume go back with amazing speed. Not because it's a crazy boat chase (which there is, btw) but because I started to remember small details that when single aren't interesting, but in the end when Stephenson starts putting them together, it's astonishing.

12:45 / 16.11.05

Matt, reminds me of a funny story. I got Cryptonomicon the week it was released, in late 1999. I read it in about 2-3 weeks. I then loaned it to my friend, who had a few favorable comments about it when he first began reading it. As time went by, he mentioned it less and less. Three weeks later he finished the book, handed it to me, and said, "Don't ever give me a book by this motherfucker again." But just as you mentioned -- it was that large portions of the book were so useless to the plot as a whole. I think it's the math equations or the super-long email from one minor character to his wife that got him.

23:24 / 16.11.05

Once you get through the long seemingly interminable math and technolects, the ending of Crypt... actually ties everything up rather nicely. Has a smidge of a Hollywood ending too, in the case of the crazy ex-partner with a gun (or a bow, I can't remember). It's very satisfying getting to the end of a Stephenson book, almost like the end of a John Irving or a Dickens....

07:58 / 18.11.05

I'm not a huge fan of historical fiction, but I've found the Baroque trilogy immensely entertaining so far. I'm currently working my way through System of the World just now.

It's very satisfying getting to the end of a Stephenson book

Damn right. They're such massive sprawling books that every time I finished one I felt as though I'd just scaled a small mountain and was enjoying the view from the top. Normally I finish a book within days, the Baroque books take me a month or so to work through.

For me the structure of the books actually conjures up the image of the period they're set in.

Plus, I like the mildly phantastical elements. Enoch's immortality (?), the almost-mystical alchemical gold.

Plus, pirates. Garrr!

18:20 / 18.11.05

I see what you mean about finishing a Stephenson book, but I'd still say the biggest "high" I got finishing a book was Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow," which sucked me in like no other book before or since -- despite the fact it wasn't until my third attempt at reading it that I got over halfway through the book. I guess I just wasn't prepared for the book, those first two attempts -- third time was the charm. I plan to re-read it one day soon.

A close second would be Seth Morgan's little-known "Homeboy," which paid off massively, I felt.

Crypto satisfied me for the most part in the end, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't just a little underwhelmed.

03:39 / 19.11.05

[threadrot]

The biggest high I got was finishing Imajica by Clive Barker. Not because it's long (800+pages) or because it's really difficult. It's just the fact that I never thought I'd read fantasy before.

[/threadrot]

Yeah, Cryptonomicon had a bit of an underwhelming climax, but I ignored this because I was so elated everything tied together.

I'm terribly excited to re-read all of the books again, because now that I know everything, I'll be able to keep the details better organized in my mind. Especially with the Baroque Cycle and the constant references to people I can't remember who are. Like the Earl of Comstock or the Duke of Whatever. And everybody had, like, three names.

23:50 / 19.11.05

I just finished re-reading Quicksilver, and it seemed to go a lot faster this time around... and was easier to keep track of the Comstocks, Jeffreys, etc.

I liked The Confusion just for the whole epic travels from India to the Philipines to Mexico... and I have to say I love Stephenson's books for the amount of pointless information in them, since it's always something I know nothing about (Babylonian mythology in Snow Crash, calculus and whatnot from these...)

01:24 / 21.11.05

like the lesson on the origin of the word "dollar"? I found that unbelievably fascinating.

21:52 / 03.12.05

I finished System last week and really enjoyed it. I did feel the ending was a little too deus ex machina for my tastes. I'm curious to know how much of the Enoch stuff was in his mind when he was writing Cryptonomicon.

01:38 / 04.12.05

I'm also curious to know how the Shaftoes, Waterhouses, and Enoch the Red play into the next book. Or if he will even work with these characters some more. Are we ever going to find out if Enoch is actually the Biblical figure of the same name? Or if there's one hundred Enochs through through time (like one taking the place of the next, etc)

I'm sad you thought it was deus ex machina. After I read it, I couldn't imagine it going any other way.

18:25 / 04.12.05

I've got System of the World in the pile ready to read, but decided to read a few other books beforehand, seeing as both Quicksilver and Confussion took me a while to get through (mainly because of work). They are great books, I kind of missed Daniel from Confussion, but all the heist stuff was great fun. I also loved the massive section describing how the movement of the quicksilver could have sunk the boat, the fact that it went into great detail about this and made it so tense, and then just had a small description of the subsequent battle between the Japanese and the crew.

The Timaximus, The!

19:54 / 04.12.05

I'm curious to know how much of the Enoch stuff was in his mind when he was writing Cryptonomicon.

My guess is a lot of it. After I finished System Of The World, I reread Cryptonomicon, and it's full of things like Eliza peak in Kina Kunta, Randy sees a pair of samurai swords in the young Shaftoe cousins' trunk, the gold in the submarine is flat with holes in it, like a computer punchcard, etc. (and that's just off the top of my head). I'm convinced Stephenson either had most of the Baroque stuff fully fleshed out, or the guy's a genius at reverse-engineering.

Are we ever going to find out if Enoch is actually the Biblical figure of the same name?

* * * SPOILERS * * *

I thought we did. He was an alchemist, Enoch von Hackleheber, who invented/discovered (and keeps using) the stuff Daniel gives to Newton to bring him back to life, no? Unless I totally missed the point of something...

There's a part in Cryptonomicon where he says he could try talking to someone in Latin, but he'd probably sound like a sixteenth-century alchemist to them.
* * * END SPOILERS * * *

Has there been any kind of official announcement (or semi-legit rumors) concerning what he's writing next?

07:16 / 05.12.05

I think he was a planning a sequel to Cryptonomicon, but then Quicksilver got away from him and turned into a 3 book series, so I'm not sure if that's still going ahead.

Regrettable Juvenilia

08:06 / 05.12.05

He was an alchemist, Enoch von Hackleheber, who invented/discovered (and keeps using) the stuff Daniel gives to Newton to bring him back to life, no? Unless I totally missed the point of something...

This is one of several red herrings.

SPOILERS follow, obviously.

Enoch von Hackleheber is just another of his various identities. It is heavily implied that Enoch Root isn't human at all: I believe it's towards the end of Quicksilver that Daniel, while annoyed with him, challenges him along the lines of "I'm a mortal man, what are you?", and Enoch doesn't defend himself against the accusation; there's also the bit where Enoch is asked "why are you here?" and answers with (again paraphrasing) "Why has my spirit been incarnated into a physical body at this time in this world?" - which on its own could just be a bit of philosophical rhetoric, but probably isn't.

At the end of The System Of The World, Eliza communicates with Jack by having a priest read to him the Biblical story of Enoch, a man who was taken up into Heaven bodily by God rather than dying. In the Hebrew Book of Enoch, this Enoch is transformed into the angel Metatron.

In Cryptonomicon, Randy Waterhouse calls Enoch Root a “wizard”, as part of a classification of people that he has adopted based on Tolkien’s Lord Of The Rings. Now, on the one hand this is merely a symptom of Randy’s extreme geekiness, but as it happens, I think he’s spot on. Wizards in Tolkien are supernatural beings that take on mortal lives in order to serve some higher purpose: that, I would strongly argue, is what Enoch Root is.

11:53 / 05.12.05

Pardon my confusion here (pun definitely intended) but is Stephenson saying that Enoch is Metatron? Or is the Bible story just another red herring?

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:44 / 05.12.05

Well... My take on it is that Enoch Root is definitely a supernatural being, but probably not literally that Enoch-turned-Metatron. However, it's possible that said story is something that's grown up around Enoch's real origin. We just don't know. But Enoch explicitly isn't just an alchemist with a steady supply of Philosopher's Stone - Lothar Von Hacklebur says as much.

Note that whatever Enoch is, Solomon Kohan probably also is one of 'em too.

17:46 / 05.12.05

I'm curious to know how much of the Enoch stuff was in his mind when he was writing Cryptonomicon. Evil Scientist

Actually, I've just reread Cryptonomicon specifically to suss out the gold ETC cards and the like. Most of it's covered a few posts ago, he has the story of Enoch plotted out and has done for ages. "I'd sound like a seventeenth century alchemist" is what he says about his archaic Latin pronunciation IIRC.

I think Root is a human alchemist, following in the footsteps of Solomon (who IS that Solomon BTW, Solomon the Wise, son of King David) who is probably the same Enoch mentioned in the Bible- I think the story will be revealed in subsequent books. He gets shot and dies in Crypto, then wakes up and gets smuggled off to assume a new identity with the help of Turing IIRC. Part of an international conspiracy called Societas Eruditorum (=Alchemists) has the Elixir of Life (Philosophers stone) and an interest in gold etc.
He's not a Mortal man but he is a man. He has the same needs and urges the other characters do (he fucks the Finn girl for example).

17:47 / 05.12.05

Lothar Von Hacklebur says as much.

Whassat? What does Hackelheber know about it?

08:47 / 07.12.05

"I had a tough time with Baroque Cycle too. Normally I read really fast, but I was just bogged down by all three volumes. Here's how it went for each book: I'd buy it, be super excited and read about 200 pages. Then I'd let the book sit for a month or more and then I'd pick it up again only to have the same problem occur."

that is the excact same thing that happened to me!
I thought the first book was pretty good the second even better but I just cant get through the third one :/

14:10 / 07.12.05

My bad- it was Rudy Hackelheber who helped Root, due to the longstanding family connections of course.
Just finished Cryptonomicon again, brilliant ending. At one point Enoch walks across a minefield saying 'to hell with it!' which implies either bravery or a stock of Elixir.

14:20 / 07.12.05

...and I'd forgotten he saves Amy Shaftoe's leg from gangrene.
The Elixir/stone resurrects Daniel Waterhouse, Newton, Enoch (several times it seems) and who else? I reckon a stock of that is sufficient to explain the Root phenomenon.

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:35 / 07.12.05

Bobby Shaftoe is also saved by whatever Root keeps in his cigar case (when Root first finds him bleeding to death on a beach).

But as I said, it's explicitly stated that Enoch is not just an ordinary man who has access to the Philosopher's Stone. Will dig out the bit in question tonight.

21:32 / 07.12.05

This all goes to show I really need to re-read Cryptonomicon

Regrettable Juvenilia

23:04 / 07.12.05

Here we are, it's from The Confusion actually, page 549 (all credit to the Quicksilver Metaweb. Lothar von Hacklheber says:

"In order for [Enoch] to dwell among humankind he must don identities, and later, before his longevity draws notice, shed them. My father knew about Enoch - knew a little of what he was - and struck a deal with him: he would vouch for Enoch as a long-lost relative named Egon von Hacklheber.... I came to know that Enoch was not like us. And I guessed that this was a matter of his having discovered some Alchemical receipt that conferred life eternal. A reasonable guess - but wrong."

08:15 / 08.12.05

Going back to the whole "is Stephenson the master of retconning?" question:

he's stated several times that the Baroque Cycle, Cryptonomicon, etc, is one whole large concept. He just decided that Cryptonomicon was the most interesting to write first.

The Baroque Cycle is the sequel to Cryptonomicon, it just doesn't come after it chronologically. Stephenson has also hinted that he wants to write another chapter in the future, I believe.

So: it's all in his head. It's just not coming out in the obvious order. Similarly, he's also (frequently) had to point out that he's never stopped writing science fiction, some of it just stopped being set in the future.

17:52 / 08.12.05

A reasonable guess - but wrong

Ahhh... *light dawns* ...ta Weapons, I will re-jig my theories (PS why Petey Shaftoe?)

12:26 / 16.01.06

CRYPTONOMICON SPOLERS

.

.

.

I just finished Cryptonomicon for the second time yesterday and caught a lot more this time (GEB Kivistik and other names that span the generations)... does he ever mention what happens to Bischoff though once he escapes? Enoch and Dengo are still hanging around over the gold 50 years later...

12:31 / 10.02.06

Holy shit! Remember in the book when they have to find Hooke's notes? Front page news in the Grauniad yesterday-

Filled with crabby italics and acerbic asides, the 520 or so yellowing and stained pages are the handwritten minutes of the United Kingdom Royal Society (of eminent scientists) as recorded by the brilliant scientist Robert Hooke, one of the society’s original fellows and curator of experiments.

"...and there is a page that lays to rest the bitter controversy over who designed the watch that would eventually lead to the first measurements of longitude." i.e Hooke rather than Huygens, Oldenburg's sloppy note-taking led to the dispute.

Life imitates Art.