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"Turtles all the way down"

02:34 / 13.11.05

So in the series of novels written by Stephen King, apparently the Earth is supported on the back of a gigantic turtle. In the Discworld novels, Great A'Tuin carries the elephants who carries the Disc. "Kurma", the avatar of Vishnu, carries a mountain on its back.

A famous anecdote told by Stephen Hawking goes like this:
A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise."

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?"

"You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down."

Where did this belief come from? Why does this idea survive? Why a turtle? Is it because some turtles are so old that we cannot definitely figure out their age? Is it because of Vishnu? WHY? (And why are some of these turtles endowed with puberty and ninja skillz?)

All Acting Regiment

07:39 / 13.11.05

Maybe it's because turtles spend time underwater and on land- and they're born on land only to enter water as adults. Water's quite a common metaphor for the spiritual/magical world, and hence they might have picked up some associated status. Also, to a "primitive" society a turtle, like a buffalo, can provide a great source of food and supplies, with the shell being used for armour or as a water-holder, etc. So they'd be useful to the community and thus have more chance of being legendized.

I think, however, that you're over-estimating the importance of turtles generally- other places have got wolves, snakes, pigs etc.

15:50 / 13.11.05

well, these turtle things can get damned old too... so there great as symbols of old knowlegde, and used as that alot too in old stories and stuff. and there were lika around when dinosaures roamed the earth... an dthen they can hide in there own shell! Thats pretty cool i think...

nyarlathotep's shoe horn

16:12 / 13.11.05

North America is "turtle island"

which is saying something...

ta
tenix

ps not sure what, tho

01:02 / 14.11.05

Legba - I don't think I am overestimating the turtles. To the best of my knowledge (which I admit is woefully underdeveloped in this area), wolves don't carry the world on their back. I think that's a huge responsibility for something, anything.

Unconditional Love

07:44 / 14.11.05

Those reptiles that came in there shell like vehicles, carrying the biodomes on there backs, you remember? sure you do.

All Acting Regiment

09:09 / 14.11.05

Well, no, Matt, what I was saying was that turtles are not significantly more prominent worldwide, in terms of frequency of appearance in mythologies, than certain other animals. Meaning that there's about as many wolves and serpents or whatever as there are turtles in the broad picture of mythology- which isn't to say they're not very good at what they do, they're just not the only ones doing it.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:46 / 14.11.05

Wolves eat the Sun, though. That's hardcore.

Pretty obvious, this one. Pratchett and King have encountered the "turtles all the way down" gag. Pratchett is a mythology geek, and as such presumably at some point came across Chukwa, who carried an elephant who carried the world. Or possibly Just the world. I think this is your first problem. You are citing King and Pratchett as if they were primary sources, whereas in fact they are both at the near end of a tradition - both are referencing the Russell anecdote, as is Hawking, which in turn references the myth of chukwa, which is probably referenced by the story of the Avatar of Vishnu. That's really only one or two mythological references. Compared to, say, a flood myth or a vegetative deity it's pretty specific.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

20:54 / 14.11.05

A really hardcore wolf would eat the Sunday papers.

02:45 / 15.11.05

Legba - Sorry. I misunderstood your post.

11:37 / 16.11.05

That's really only one or two mythological references. Compared to, say, a flood myth or a vegetative deity it's pretty specific.

thats true. but the current popularity of the world-on-turtle myth, demonstrated by (often distorted/reinterpreted) references to the original myth, indicates that the image has some kind of importance right now over a wolf-eating-sun myth. im not sure its in the same ballpark as a flood or a veggie god. it seems a bit more specific than those obviously society-wide images. the turtle is sort of a curiosity. metaphysically deep, but only of interest to the specialist (mythologist or metaphysician). the number, direction, and species of the worlds porter doesnt particularly impact the life of a 4000bc sand farmer or a 2005ce telephone service operator.

tortoises, at least, look like theyve got a burden. they look preoccupied, and somewhere between depressed and blissful. anyone care about the difference between turtles and tortoises? what about snapping turtles?

i remember a hindu image of the world turtle resting in the coils of a snake. i cant recall if somebody mentioned that already.

there is a north american idea (wish i could be more specific) that we live in an oyster, or at least we did until it opened up during a creation myth.

anyway, what is the significance of the turtle myth? some ideas follow.

-the turtle swims through water, the earth progresses forward through time and space
-our habitat is a greater form of life, though we dont live in a womb; note the geometrical patterns often seen on a turtles back
-the turtle is going somewhere, perhaps still crawling along the beach to the water line; what will happen when we get there? (i think pratchett touched on this one)
-similarly, a turtle has the tendency to retreat when stressed; are we in a swimming phase or a hiding phase?
-and this one is from d&d: what if the floating turtle dives below the surface?

the idea of our turtle reaching its shoreline/mating area/danger zone/open ocean/etc reminds me of the temporal singularity discussed in the invis and elsewhere. does this myth bring a sense of security or anxiety? does it make you feel comfortable or scared to think you are living on a large living creature that you dont understand and cant see? somewhere between depressed and blissful?

15:20 / 16.11.05

Fascinating post, thanks.

I've never thought about the consequences of the turtle holding the world. I can safely say that no, it doesn't scare me. It makes me more interested.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:36 / 16.11.05

thats true. but the current popularity of the world-on-turtle myth, demonstrated by (often distorted/reinterpreted) references to the original myth, indicates that the image has some kind of importance right now over a wolf-eating-sun myth.

So far, we have three references in the last fifteen years, two of them in books written by fantasy novelists writing books aimed at essentially the same audience. I'm not getting "popular" here - just geek-friendly. I suspect that Fenris, for example, has cropped up a lot more frequently than that in recent culture. Likewise Medusa, Achilles, Peter Purves and Godzilla.

18:16 / 16.11.05

I recently wrote a fantasy short-story featuring a giant turtle with a city on its back (a mobile island). And that's an idea my subconscious minf stole from an old arcade game from the 80s AND a Disney's Alladin cartoon. So, I guess the "giant turtle carrying mankind on its back" seem to be an archetypical, primal, animal image that is much more in sync with the current zeitgeist than the sun-eating wolf, or the world-encircling serpent, or even the grape-craving fox. Why, I don't know, ask a shrink

19:02 / 16.11.05

Why, I don't know, ask a shrink

Hokay.

Ganesh, why does the "giant turtle carrying mankind on its back" image seem to be much more in sync with the current zeitgeist than the sun-eating wolf, or the world-encircling serpent, or even the grape-craving fox? Your professional opinion would be most welcome. Thanks!

advancedplastics

19:57 / 16.11.05

The turtle w/ the earth on its back:

http://www.angelfire.com/wa2/eltrut/turtle.html

23:03 / 17.11.05

well the story of Turtle is largely a Native American one.
Many tribes have a creation myth which involves Turtle.
The basis being that Turtle volunteered to hold the newly formed mud on his back since he is able to float in the water.
The story survives because not all of my ancestors have been completely wiped out from history yet, and so the stories still get told.

as far as mad ninja skills go, i'm pretty sure that was toxic waste.

00:26 / 22.11.05

The turtle thing is close, but no cigar. I had a Salvia experience in which I discovered it's not turtles all the way down, it's chameleons all the way through!

Man, they explained the whole thing but I couldn't remember it after they put me back...

00:41 / 22.11.05

Ganesh, why does the "giant turtle carrying mankind on its back" image seem to be much more in sync with the current zeitgeist than the sun-eating wolf, or the world-encircling serpent, or even the grape-craving fox? Your professional opinion would be most welcome. Thanks!

Christ, why would I know this? Umm... because we've all been traumatised by the shock of seeing our father's penis poking out of tortoiseshell trousers? Where's the mental illness angle here?

Okay, let's bullshit.

Perhaps the tortoise dovetails slightly more readily with the relatively modern/'scientific' notion of the Earth as a rock (shell) hurtling through space (water). The tortoise is associated with the concepts of home and longevity in a way the others aren't, which again maps wonkily onto ideas of planetness. The Earth was once thought to be flat and disc-shaped like a tortoise's carapace, and one recalls those sailors' tales of boats mooring on rocky outcrops only to find (when they lit a fire) that they were atop a giant sea-turtle.

That's it.

Unconditional Love

04:12 / 22.11.05

Shape of the turtle

The Turtle dao yin (chi gung) exercise based on the movements of a turtle swimming, looks alot like shagging standing up, strenuous on thighs and hips, strenght and flexibility building, a great spectacle from the back of the class with well honed arses flowing back and forth.

The book looks good too.

Unconditional Love

04:14 / 22.11.05

Now its the belly of the turtle that is the earth, the domed shell is the sky, hence the eight trigrams of the pakua, and the celestial animals of chinese cosmology.