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Arguing for or against God - is it offensive?

  
 
matthew.
02:19 / 13.11.05
I'm starting this thread in Convo, because I'm unsure if it belongs here or in the Headier section of Barb.

I am personally agnostic, and have been for years. I was one of those arrogant atheists who worshipped at the altar of the holy numbers and facts, until I realized it was all meaningless (thanks to a class on the history of Science which exposed to me that facts are meaningless by themselves... Long story short -> agnosticism for me)

To quote Jack Fear/Dr. Graves: The only intellectually honest choice, it seems to me, is agnosticism. Gnosis=knowledge; to be an agnostic is to admit, "I don't know."

So I don't know and I'm the first to admit it. But I find it incredibly enjoyable to discuss the merits and problems of faith. In my personal and humble opinion, I think that faith plugs a hole in people. Whether that be faith in God, numbers, love, science, magick. It's simply a plug for a hole. Whatever that plug is, that's completely cool with me. I don't care. To each his own.

But I like to discuss that plug for that hole. I like to take a side and start arguing that -hey- God doesn't exist, or -hey- God exists in all forms. I don't think I'm ever going to get to an answer, so I just enjoy talking about it.

BUT (another paragraph started with "but") is this thought offensive to people? If I just choose haphazardly to argue for the nonexistance of God, is that offensive to people who believe in God? A psychologist told me once that people become uncomfortable if you challenge their fundamental beliefs, and it's really just asshole behaviour to tell a Christian that their faith is built on lies (or whatever)

So, for the Christians out there in Barb, does it bother you that people like me argue the finer points of your religion? Especially since I don't really care about either side's outcome?

Is it offensive to argue for or against God if you are ambivalent about the answer? That's my question.
 
 
Slim
04:10 / 13.11.05
I find it offensive when anyone argues with me simply for the sake of arguing. It's a waste of time.
 
 
Ender
06:14 / 13.11.05
Slim, do you see argueing as something negative?

to me, an arguement means two people that dont see something the same way trying to explain their point of view.

And I think when done right an arguement can be not only enlightening but also very fun!
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:33 / 13.11.05
There's an argument that says arguing logically about God is pointless, because the experience of God's presence is immanent.

There's another argument which says that the only faith worth having is one which is logically probed and investigated, because unexamined belief is just rote.

I think whether or not it's offensive lies in how you do it - unless you're arguing with or near someone who takes what I feel is the wretchedly idiotic and impoverished view that questions are in some way an insult to God. At which point, I don't really care whether they get offended (they're going to be offended by something I do, anyway) unless they are, as such people sadly can be, heavily armed.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:42 / 13.11.05
I would say it's not bad to argue for or against God, or anything for that matter, as long as you try to avoid any of the 'bad' tactics of arguments, arguments to authority, ad hominem and so on. It is possibly better for you to try and argue for something you don't believe in in order to both stretch your mind and/or test your own beliefs.
 
 
Golias
11:41 / 13.11.05
I'm happy to argue 'black is white'...and have done,lol.
I'm also pretty ambivalent with religious discussions but love to argue religion.Its not offensive that you dont care but I know that true believers will dislike your lack of faith...regardless of your position.
Christian arguments usually end up unresolved due to the unprovableness of god or go to interpretaton of the Bible.
I'd like to see people of different christian sects discussing their differences.Round One- Baptists vs Jehovah's Witness's!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:41 / 13.11.05
I think that if you argue from a standpoint of the non-existence or existence of deity, and then if the argument is not going your way say "Only joking! I'm really an agnostic!", then you are likely to exhaust the patience of an interlocutor fairly quickly. If you use your understanding of the theist and atheist perspectives to provide alternative perspectives on a discussion, I think anyone who was to cavil at that would probably not be a highly profitable partner in the discussion.
 
 
---
11:53 / 13.11.05
Is it offensive to argue for or against God if you are ambivalent about the answer?

I don't think it is. You're just trying to work it out so it's wierd how anything could be wrong with that if you're not annoying people.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:57 / 13.11.05
I know that true believers will dislike your lack of faith...regardless of your position.

And how, exactly, do you know this with such certainty?
 
 
ibis the being
18:20 / 13.11.05
But I find it incredibly enjoyable to discuss the merits and problems of faith. In my personal and humble opinion, I think that faith plugs a hole in people. Whether that be faith in God, numbers, love, science, magick. It's simply a plug for a hole. Whatever that plug is, that's completely cool with me. I don't care. To each his own. But I like to discuss that plug for that hole.

I think if you're arguing for the purpose of exploring the question Is There A God, there's little offensive about that. However, if you're going around telling people "Your belief in God is really just a plug for a hole," yes, that's obnoxious. In exactly the same way that it would be obnoxious to go to a pub and tell people "Your pint is just a plug for a hole," and go outside and tell the smokers the same about their cigarettes. Bottom line, it's obnoxious and offensive to go around wantonly psychoanalyzing people who didn't ask you for your diagnosis.
 
 
astrojax69
19:48 / 13.11.05
s'no point being athiest if god doesn't exist anyway...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:16 / 13.11.05
Just to clear this up, again...

According to all the recent, serious, thinking about this, I, personally, AM god, and you, matt, courtesy of your ideas, are in serious hot water.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:52 / 13.11.05
I did not write that last post. It was a suit thief. May God strike him down.
 
 
---
22:33 / 13.11.05
Shafty, please keep Von Mises in check...
 
 
Ender
22:37 / 13.11.05
Wait just a minute, mother fucker, I am god, and you my friend are in some serious hot water!

I agree with the whole plug idea (after studying social trends, ect.), but I also believe it is wrong to tell someone that they are using religion as a crutch.

I grew up not really knowing or thinking to care about god. Until I met some LDS missionaries, who warned me about how hot hell can get, and that I would be spending a good amount of my free time there if I did not convert to their faith. So I spent the next four years in an avid search for god, within the box of Mormonism.

Now leaving that behind has not been an easy thing to do. I had to work so hard to believe, that not believing is even harder. I defined myself by the teachings of Christ. I am finding now that it takes a strong person to live life without certain knowledge of god (if you are not replacing him with something else).

Religion, as I understand it at least, is not a bad thing for most people. It gives us codes of ethics, and guidelines to live by. It provides a similar frame of reference for many of the people who participate. Churches provide opportunities to serve, and help serve as a tool of control for any country that they exist in.

I suppose that men like Winston from the book 1984 would have had similar problems with religion as he did with Big Brother.

For an example of how religion can be good and bad, watch Fiddler on the Roof, Reb Tevya and his family are a prime example of what religion can be for a family. Something to bind them, and make them stronger. The good book is an instruction manual for life, and the words in the book can mean so many things that one can apply them to any situation of any time period. Religion/tradition held Anecktevka together, but in the end it was that same religious tradition that caused the village to erode away in the ever changing river of the world that is always flowing around it.

The founding father of the LDS church, Joseph Smith said one thing that I will always agree with, "moderation in all things is the way to happiness." I crave a gentle balance to the world.

Back to topic: In my experience, if you argue religion with most religious people, they are arguing to convert you, and even if they listen to what you say, it will always come back to, "well, I have faith in my beliefs." And intelligent conversation is damned at that point.

IN THE END, just don’t bother, people will either come to the knowledge, or not, but it will always be in their own way and only when they are ready.
 
 
matthew.
23:25 / 13.11.05
Haha, I need to defend myself here. It's not like I'm wandering around telling people that faith is a crutch. Other than this thread here, of course.

Oh, Petey. You make me laugh.
 
 
Ender
00:31 / 14.11.05
Oh I get what you are saying, Matt, but for the purpose of this thread here, people are having fun 'argueing' the topic.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
06:52 / 14.11.05
Shafty, please keep Von Mises in check...

This Christmas, eon. The Great WORK shall be complete.
 
 
Sniv
12:35 / 14.11.05
I have to say that, in my experience, arguing God with the faithful can be a pointless and frustrating experience. as Ender said, they'll usually be trying to convert you during the discussion, and you can never, ever win, or even draw (like saying "Fair enough, that's what you think, you could be right". Hell, I've said that enough times, but no religious person I've ever met has said that to me).

I'm agnostic myself, with the scales leaning more towards the "God probably does/did exist" side than t'other, but I wouldn't say I 'believe' in the traditional sense, as most of my ideas on theology come from excessive mushroom consumption, and admitting that in Christian circles will usually lose you friends (well, it has me at least).

That said, I think the world would be more interesting, at least, if the people with strong beliefs were prepared to have them questioned, or to analyse why they believe what they do.

Matt's opeing statement rang very true to me, and I've often considered the idea of a "God-shaped-hole" (not sure who I stoke that idea from, but the name certainly ain't mine). I think that everyone has a God-shaped hole, and it depends what people fill it with. Personally, I fill mine with music. It's what I live and breathe, and very few things can give you the emotional rush of a fantastic peice of music, or lurching about, sweaty with a guitar in hand... *sigh* THAT's God, for me at least.

Other people have their own stuff to fill up on - football, cars, books, writting, the opposite sex, even God! I say this because all the real hard-core Christians and Muslims I've met don't have time or the passion for very much else, apart from their faith. Whereas the faithless are the ones that have the little obsessions that drive most of us along.

Anyway, cool topic, lets dig.
 
 
Spaniel
13:50 / 14.11.05
This Christmas, eon. The Great WORK shall be complete.

We'll be living in a capitalist utopia?
 
 
matthew.
14:03 / 14.11.05
It reminds me of a section in James Frey's A Million Little Pieces (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). James is in rehab and he is told the only way to fight alcoholism is the Twelve Step program, and he replies, "It's simply trading one addiction for another". While I know it's a rather obnoxious statement to make, I generally equate faith to be an addiction that just keeps us away from the more dangerous addictions IMVeryHO

That being said, I generally try to keep my opinions to myelf. Other than at home, however. My mom's atheist and my dad's sort-of Christian. My mother is the close-minded one about religion, despising it, while my father, the Good Christian keeps an open mind about everything.

So, when having fun arguing for or against the existance of God, I keep my opinions on the futility or necessity of faith to myself.
 
 
sleazenation
14:16 / 14.11.05
But do you keep you mind open to various techniques and habits you might have developed yourself for any inadequacies, which could reasonably described as holes, you might feel about your own life?
 
 
illmatic
14:37 / 14.11.05
To go back to Matt's opening post, I don't think you should avoid arguing something you believe in, solely on the grounds that it would cause offense. Strange rationale surely? Indeed, there are many people in life generally, and on this board who I would actually go out of my way to offend.
 
 
Axolotl
14:43 / 14.11.05
Illmatic: I'd agree that there's no point censoring your own beliefs to avoid offense, but should you go out of your way to argue with someone on a topic you have no strong feelings on just to offend them? If they were a fuckwit would that make it OK to do so?
 
 
Char Aina
14:55 / 14.11.05
depends.
i have argued to ofend when offended by my interlocutor.
sometimes that could be argued i do so to highlight that they have done so...sometimes it could just be the verbal equivalent of a parry and thrust.

i argued the shit out of a born again hipy dude who wouldnt let go of his 'you havent yet seen the light' schtick.
i kept him there for so long another one of the evangelising wank-fucks in his church actually came looking for him.i do remember feeling quite clever about it at the time(it was kinda like mental taichi, turning his energy to his disadvantage. i even had an audience in the end).
i can see quite clearly that making him uncomfortable was a big motivating factor, largely because he had made me feel slighted. i dont for a second think that i learned anything about anyone or anything other than myself, and i dont think it likely that i managed to enlighten or influence his position.
 
 
---
15:39 / 14.11.05
This Christmas, eon. The Great WORK shall be complete.

  
 
Alex's Grandma
17:00 / 14.11.05
matt;

Slightly off-topic, but with regard to his book, didn't you occasionally find yourself wondering if James Frey wasn't just making the whole thing up? I mean fair enough, he probably was in rehab at some point, but what with him befriending the mob boss, getting the girl, having all the best lines and generally being praised for being a 'tough son of a bitch/motherfucker/'or related about every third page, personally anyway, it all started to read a bit like a Boy's Own adventure in the dry-out house, after a while.

(I'd be happy enough to start a seperate thread about this, if arguing the toss about James Frey's to my mind deeply suspect ouevre seems like a plan...)
 
 
Smoothly
17:59 / 14.11.05
in my experience, arguing God with the faithful can be a pointless and frustrating experience. as Ender said, they'll usually be trying to convert you during the discussion

See, this has never, ever happened to me. In fact I find it rather depressing how happy the faithful are for me literally to go to hell. It's a periodic reminder of what a damnable character I am. So for me, at least, proselytising has never got in the way of the debate.

One of the problems I have with Agnosticism regarding the existence of God is that it comes off as a bit unengaged. I can't think of another question of comparable importance where its so acceptable to sit on the pot your entire life and not take a shit. Given that it is difficult, if not impossible, to be certain of anything, it seems a bit gutless to me to sit on the fence on the matter of God, in a way that one wouldn't on whether animals can suffer, Saddam was responsible for 9/11 or if the world is being run by shape-changing lizards.

Whether it's offensive, I'm not sure. But being offered a debate with someone who has adopted 'don't know' as their position (even given it a name) is going to be pretty unseductive. What's my motivation?
 
 
Golias
23:52 / 15.11.05
I suppose if you don't believe in a GOD then Christianity or Islam,etc must sound about as valid as worshipping Cthulhu, Zeus or Kong!
Open minded folks like to discuss possabilities(life on other planets,existence of GOD, do frogs dream,etc) because they are stimulating, brain excersise.
People with unprovable absolute convictions are usually termed 'mentally ill' by society...except in the case of organised religion.
Paranoid peeple who believe THEY are watching them, are no different from people who believe GOD is watching them...or maybe they are...damn my ambivlance!

PS-Bet my GOD could beat your god.'Mon the Kong!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:01 / 16.11.05
Back to topic: In my experience, if you argue religion with most religious people, they are arguing to convert you, and even if they listen to what you say, it will always come back to, "well, I have faith in my beliefs." And intelligent conversation is damned at that point.

So it would be a good thing if they were to change their beliefs to, say, agnosticism- or even to a form of their own beliefs which accomodated yours? In which case, couldn't it be argued that you are trying to convert them just as much as the other way round?

I'm sensing a teeny bit of Christian-bashing (not necessarily from you, just in this thread) which I'm not entirely happy with.
 
  
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