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Underground > Games & Gameplay >

Censorship and videogames

13:16 / 12.11.05

A preview of this game here made me think. Manhunt was a game that although fun in parts was to flawed as a game to be enjoyable overall, the subject matter that made me shudder a little but I could live with it (after all it's so far removed from reality that it was almost comic).

However the game I linked to does worry me somewhat. From what I gather it's a bullying sim, in much the same vein as manhunt. Now rockstar are pretty renowned for making controversial games, and I'm usully the last person that would succumb to the Daily Mirror-style hysteria, but a game that sanitises and promotes bullying? I'm really not sure...

admiral sausage

14:23 / 12.11.05

An enforceable rating system would be good, I could be wrong, but at the moment the BBFC will classify games, but enforcing it in shops is voluntary

Even in shops where they try to enforce the ratings system kids parent will buy them for them, perhaps an ad campaign in shops letting parents know that the rating system is the same as with films?
If I want to play some porno/horror/snuff comedy game I should be able to as I am (well) over 18, I don’t want daily mail readers banning them just because irresponsible parents let their kids play manhunt or resident evil 4.

So in summary, no I don’t think games should be censored. If they go too far, if it offends people sensibilities then don’t buy it, switch it off or ban your children from playing it.

admiral sausage

14:37 / 12.11.05

I also think that Rockstar games love all of the free publicity that they get from games like GTA and will get for Bully. Personally I cant stand the GTA games, every time i play it, I cant stop myself from going round shagging then, murdering whores. To me it,s the whore murdering game.

14:43 / 12.11.05

An enforceable rating system would be good, I could be wrong, but at the moment the BBFC will classify games, but enforcing it in shops is voluntary

If a game has a BBFC rating, it's illegal for any store to sell it to a person under the age specified, exactly the same as if it were movie. It is enforceable, but the problem is that nobody's bothering.

I shouldn't imagine that WHSmiths stops many kids from buying the Official Playstation Mag when it carries a 15 cert demo disc, for example.

14:45 / 12.11.05

I didn't really frame the question very well at all (I'mnew here, please don't hurt me...), I guess what I was trying to ask is: Do game developers have any sort of ethical responsibilities for the games that they create. I mean, a game that promoted rape or KKK style lynching would be wrong, yes? Or would it?

I think my problem stems from the fact that at the moment games do not examine (or in many cases even display) motive and consequence. Maybe the fact that gaming is still very much about entertainment rather than "Art", and therefore through neccessity has to glamourise its subject matter (whether that's multiple homicide, killing zombies or defusing bombs), adds to the problem. It would be interesting to see a game that sensitively handled the subject of murder, examining motives and questioning ethics. What that game would be though, I have no clue.

14:47 / 12.11.05

E.Randius:

yes, but not that many games actually are BBFC certified, its mostly the unenforceable PEGI, although this is changing quite rapidly now.

admiral sausage

14:56 / 12.11.05

What is the most offensive game ? GTA, Postal ?

16:19 / 12.11.05

Perhaps Bully should have its POV character really low powered for the first few levels unable to pretty much anything except being hit and raped. The player would only be able to 'progress' to later levels if he manages to avoid being killed by the repeated beatings and/or sexual molestations meted out at the hands of parents and friends of the family...

19:11 / 12.11.05

Do game developers have any sort of ethical responsibilities for the games that they create?

Well, not if you're considering a video game to be an art form, no. Is de Sade responsible for sadist acts? Should Marylin Manson be blamed for Luke Mitchell? Obviously not. And whilst it's not always a case of parents refusing to take responsibility for their little brats (the GTA lawsuit springs to mind), that is very often the problem.

With regards to suppression, controversy breeds curiosity, and outright banning just ensures the product acquires a mystique. A case in point; I purchased Manhunt - albeit secondhand - purely because of the controversy it had caused, rather than because I was interested in the game content. Ok, so I subsequently discovered that the game was, well, pretty dire really, but the point remains.

Ultimately the problem of individuals being inspired to commit unspeakable acts by violent art lies with society and not the art itself, but there are two questions I'd like to raise in this discussion: (1) Does the violent nature of a video game invalidate the fact that its production brings wealth to those who produced it, and pleasure to the vast majority of those who play it? and (2) Do we really believe that the suppression and/or banning of a violent video game actually makes our society any safer from those individuals who are likely to have been influenced by it?

21:41 / 12.11.05

in the two examples that you've given there (Marilyn Manson and DeSade) much of the controversy comes either from a lack of proper context (DeSade wasn't writing sadistic pornography for it's own sake, there was often an element of satire) or outright ignorance (Manson's lyrics are not aggressive in themselves, though the delivery may be).

Manhunt, and quite probably Bully as well, have no context to be taken out of. Theres no real analysis of the violence taking place, it is conscienceless.

21:46 / 12.11.05

(2) Do we really believe that the suppression and/or banning of a violent video game actually makes our society any safer from those individuals who are likely to have been influenced by it?

Games influencing real life isn't what I'm really worried about, ultimately people that act in violent ways would find a trigger in anything (a game, a film a novel etc.), thats not really what my problem is. Games to me are escapism, as such I find it odd that a game like Bully which is rooted in real situations and issues could be entertaining. I mean, my school years weren't the happiest and I find it a little uncomfortable to be presented with a game that actually glorifies and santises this problem.

07:18 / 13.11.05

Games to me are escapism, as such I find it odd that a game like Bully which is rooted in real situations and issues could be entertaining

Was the Medal of Honor series unentertaining? How about any of the Sims games? Or the Hitman series? Are flight/driving/submarine simulators boring? All are rooted in real situations, and, arguably in the case of some of the FPS war games, real issues.
Games are indeed escapism, but that doesn't preclude them being set in a real world environment, or dealing with controversial material...

...however, I happen to agree with you with regards to Bully. I imagine pretty much every kid went through a period of being bullied, to one degree or another, and to produce a game of it, where the player is rewarded for engaging in acts of violence against other children, seems a little unthinking. But then, the free-advertising of controversy is precisely what Rockstar are after here.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

09:29 / 13.11.05

Personally I cant stand the GTA games, every time i play it, I cant stop myself from going round shagging then, murdering whores. To me it,s the whore murdering game.

See, I don't do that. I have much more fun driving around and trying to do the missions. Is the player's intent also an issue? I remember reading an interview years ago with one of the developers of Syndicate, who said they had originally had dogs and children among the civilians, but playtesters said it was horrible when you killed them with flamethrowers. The funny bit being, killing civilians with flamethrowers was never an objective...

11:28 / 13.11.05

to produce a game of it, where the player is rewarded for engaging in acts of violence against other children, seems a little unthinking.
it does, but then, as you say, what about 'Medal of Honour' or any other war game? After all there are still people out there who fought in WWII. Is it anymore unthinking to make entertainment out of the situation they found themselves in?

But then, the free-advertising of controversy is precisely what Rockstar are after here.

admiral sausage

18:27 / 13.11.05

See, I don't do that. I have much more fun driving around and trying to do the missions

I tried doing that, but it just didnt do it for me, not that the prostitue murder was that much fun either to be honest. I was playing it round a mates house, so its kind of hard to get into a game in that situation.

I find some of the recent games set in the middle east to be in bad taste, like Americas most wanted or counter strike (im sure there are others , but the names dont spring to mind) , but I wouldnt want them banned, I just wont buy them. The games arent too dissimilar to Doom or Halo in essence, but they are too close to what happeing in reality for me.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

19:28 / 13.11.05

Oh, I do too. (I actually like Manhunt, but I realise I'm in a minority here- I'm quite looking forward to Bully, partly because Skool Daze was one of TEH BEST GAMES EVAH and partly because I clearly have unresolved issues- having usually been the victim at school, I figure it might be fun having the shoe on the other foot but not actually hurting anyone, and I'm guessing that, this being Rockstar, it's gonna be more stylised than realistic- although I agree, the age ratings on games SHOULD be enforced more rigidly).

I enjoyed Postal 2, despite the fact that gameplay-wise it left a LOT to be desired- there was something gleeful about it, and it was fairly fucking far removed from reality.

Stuff like America's Most Wanted, I do have kind of a problem with... as you say, it's a little TOO close to the real world, and a little TOO realistic... even something like Splinter Cell has a degree of moral ambiguity- there's always a sense that Sam's bosses are fairly sinister, with him even questioning the morality of his own actions at times. But, for example, AMW, from what I've read and seen (I haven't played it, I have to confess) doesn't appeal to me at all.

20:17 / 13.11.05

Games should never be censored and they should make games even like Irreversible if they want. A had a friend who works for the BBFC who told me how much noise is made over violent games and how the BBFC doesn't look at games as art. He was asking me the Punisher videogame which his mate was in the process of reviewing and writing a report for.

I think games should come with labels and we should leave parenting to parents. I don't want my games watered down because of poor parents across america who can't be arsed to do their fucking job.

But then I think television should have full frontal nudity, cussing, shagging and all those naughty things late at night after the little bastards are supposed to be in bed anyway.

22:56 / 14.11.05

well, for a start sex does not equal violence. I don't quite know why some many people seem to think that images of sex are worse (or, in fact, even comparable in the slightest) than images of violence, but this belief seems quite prevelant.

However, you raise a fair point (and the subject of my dissertation, actually), if you'll allow me to change the direction of this thread somewhat. Should games be considered art? Is there anyone here who feels that they shouldn't, if so why? This may have been raised before in this forum, if so I apologise. I'll post my own thoughts on the matter later, when I catch up on some sleep.

23:40 / 14.11.05

The most recent thread dedicated to that question is here. Could we keep this one on topic?

12:24 / 15.11.05

c0ncept - it does, but then, as you say, what about 'Medal of Honour' or any other war game? After all there are still people out there who fought in WWII. Is it anymore unthinking to make entertainment out of the situation they found themselves in?

BUT, how many (mainstream) war games have you playing as teh Nazis and killing Jews? Not many, because it's sick and wrong. It's a similar deal, IMO, with the Bully game. It would be better if you could choose to be a bully, or beat the shit out of the other bullies. Now that's catharsis!

I know this sounds all "media panic" of me, which is usually something I detest, but I can't see how this game can be good for the kids that play it. In can just see in my minds eye some little bastard kid playing this game, and it just reinforcing his twisted world-view that says it's okay to phlegm in peoples hair, or steal their stuff, or make their lives hell. It's not big, and it's not clever.

That said though, I find violent games no more or less offensive than violent books or films. I've read a few scenes from novels that have made me squirm uncomfortably with the level of violence/nastiness contained within, far more than the cartoon spectacle of your average game. Should we ban shocking books becuase kids might read them? No. Ban games? Of course not.

In my experience, most of the moral panics about gaming originate from those that are ignorant of it (like the middle-class news media, f'rinstance =D). But these games aren't made for that audience, and what the hell do they know about it?

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:02 / 15.11.05

BUT, how many (mainstream) war games have you playing as teh Nazis and killing Jews? Not many, because it's sick and wrong.

Well, yes and no. I think lots of multiplayer games allow you to play the Wermacht or the Luftwaffe - and wargames, computer and otherwise have long provided the opportunity to act as the German forces. Possibly the difference is that you're playing the military - that is, the regime you are fighting for may be performing horrible, immoral acts, but your avatars in the gaming universe are not...

16:59 / 15.11.05

So, should we be waiting for Auschwitz Manager '45 then?

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:28 / 15.11.05

Unlikely - it's unlikely that the core audience of sim games - who tend, I think, to be a little older than other gamers - would be sufficienlty interested in a concentration camp simulator to justify the expense on the game, no matter how sensationalistic the press was. As freeware, possibly - the extreme right is apparently experimenting with recruitment through games.

Something like the war in Iraq, OTOH, already has games based on it, and recently a simulator of the Kennedy assassination also hit the headlines for apparently breaching good taste- in that case, in particular, not only because of the subject matter itself, but because it meant that you were taking shots at cars some of the occupants of which are still alive. I think I'd feel odd if someone was shooting at a 3-D replica of me in a game somewhere... but is this the case for censorship? If nothing else, it's unlikely that people will be inspired to assassinate JFK themselves as a result.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

23:51 / 15.11.05

the extreme right is apparently experimenting with recruitment through games.

I remember some years ago reading about independent/freeware games in the Middle East, taking a rather unpleasant view of the Arab/Israeli conflict- I'll try and find the sources when I get home (I think it may have been in the first Apocalypse Culture).

The Return Of Rothkoid

02:33 / 16.11.05

There's a collection of what appear to be homebrew white pride games here, to add fuel to the debate.

They look pretty shit, to be honest.

Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!

01:11 / 21.11.05

I'm willing to wait until Bully is released to pass judgement. Although I would point out that some of the things I have read lead me to believe it's more a case of "Bullied kid gets even with bullies and nasty teachers" than "Beat up the weak kids." That said, it would still be questionable, but I'd be more inclined to play.

Not that I was bullied or anything... no, really...

15:53 / 05.02.06

I know we had something in this forum about Jack Thompson, but I can't find it now that I'm looking for it and this seems like the closest match.

Anyway, this is shamelessly nicked from elsewhere on the Net. A few months back, Thompson came up with the most violent anti-videogame videogame concept he could and dared somebody - anybody - to create it, saying that if they did he'd pay $10,000 to the charity of their choice. Full story here.

Somebody did (and, more surprisingly, it's a brilliant piece of piss-taking). Thompson has yet to make good on his end of the bargain.

11:57 / 08.02.06

Somebody did before, too. Thompson refused to pay out, backpedalling and saying it needed to be a professional company that produced it or somesuch. Penny Arcade, in quite a clever little move, donated $10,000 of their own money to charity in his stead.

I've not had a chance to play I'm OK yet, because it's PC only, but it looks fantastic. Lead artist was this guy, Derek Yu. He's really rather good.

Tom Paine's Bones

15:34 / 15.03.06

As freeware, possibly - the extreme right is apparently experimenting with recruitment through games.

That's not a new phenomenon. Resistance Record's involvement in this area goes back as early as 2002 at least. And there was a game called P*** Basher back as early as the Spectrum.

What is possibly the case is that now, because computer games are more of a mainstream pastime, the far right seem to be taking them more seriously than they once did. In an odd way, it's similar to the fact that in the past the military wouldn't have bothered with creating a computer game to aid recruitment, whereas now they consider it a good way of reaching their target audience.

An important question that the article linked to raises is if these white supremacist games are actually particularly blatant examples of racism. Whereas the more general racism in the mainstream industry goes largely unremarked. I'm still pretty unsure what I think about that. I do own and enjoy playing Grand Theft Auto 3, but I am unsure how far the involvement of a number of black celebrities in the casting for the game goes to mitigating it from charges of racial stereotyping.

Equally, one of my favourite all time games is the Spectrum classic Dictator. But that could partly be because I live in a country where the idea of dictators sending people to firing squads isn't a social or historical reality. I suspect I wouldn't find the game so amusing if I live in, say, Chile.