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Deities within buddhism

 
 
Unconditional Love
02:10 / 12.11.05
While researching this , i have found a notion appearing that the deities within buddhism represent elements of the stages of human enlightenment or figures that achieved various states within there life time, yet i am finding the vajrayana tradition employs in some instances an altar similar in some manners to the cultures in which that tradition is prevalent.

i am confused as to wether thay are aspects of the human enlightenment process, icons representing various virtues etc or they can be approached on a working with gods/ spirits basis.

At the moment i am tending to think both, that the deities represent aspects of human enlightenment and are fully alive spiritual forms.

The below quote is from the khandro website>

Why call them deities; why not gods?
Although the word deity was originally a synonym for god, experience has shown that some practices such as those performed by Buddhists consist of a type of address in which the intent is rather different from the usual ancient one. That is, the general intention is not to propitiate; not to flatter, placate or enter into contracts.

There is another important difference between Buddhist deities and mythological gods or goddesses. The latter are, or were once, considered real -- described as motivated by jealousy, power and other appetites and not very different from physical creatures such as people. The deities of Buddhism are ultimately regarded as manifestations of Emptiness. Some practitioners eventually abandon deity devotion as a method for attaining an enlightened state when it has outlived its utility.

The below is taken from a response to a similar question to mine from the e-sangha community>

Shakyamuni Buddha didn't teach us to pray dieties. He didn't even teach us to pray him. When you see people knee down and bow before Buddha's statue, it is not the same as worshiping god, because the meaning of knee down and bow Buddha's statue is because we want to show respect to our kind teacher. We thank him for his Dharma teaching. Buddha statue is there not for idoling and worship. Buddha statue is there to remind us that we should always be thinking about how to be enlightened like the Buddha himself and out of these sufferings. Buddha statue is there to help us keep our 5 preceptions. Buddha statue is there to always constantly remind monk and nuns to do the right things, to listen to his dharma teaching. Buddha statue is there everyday to AWAKEN us. Buddha's statue is not there to perform worship. We recite sutras in front of Buddha's statue because we want all living beings to be able to listen to the dharma that buddha had taught to benefit them. We recite sutras in front of Buddha's statue is to help us remember the teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha. We recite Sutras everysingle word to awake us up and to imagine that Shakyamuni Buddha is still there teaching us these Dharma Sutras. There are more meaning than this. I'm not a monk but I understand these things a little bit. Monks will be able to tell you more the meanings of this.
 
 
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07:55 / 13.11.05
i am confused as to wether thay are aspects of the human enlightenment process, icons representing various virtues etc or they can be approached on a working with gods/ spirits basis.

Another E-Sangha member! Hey!

Erm, I searched for your thread there and after finding it I don't think that there's anything I can add that's already been said. I've gradually got more into Buddhism in the last few years, but as to how I approach the Buddhas......I don't really. I just use the Sutras and ask for protection if I'm having any problems, or guidance if I'm stuck with something.

There's nothing in any Buddha that isn't already in yourself, albeit unawakened, and the Sutras offer an amazing amount of guidance if you look around for the ones that suit your needs and spend enough time on them, so personally asking higher powers isn't something that often comes to mind, and meditation helps with gradually edging closer to solutions.

If you want to work with them like you would with Spirits, Gods or Goddesses I'm not sure how well it would work, but I certainly can't see it doing any harm. Even if they can't help you out, (of course they could if they wanted to, but maybe there's a better way for you.) I'm sure they'll lead you closer to working out the best way of practising.

Good luck.
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:57 / 14.11.05
Well my body and mind went haywire when trying to work with them in the same way as spirits, it seems to be disagreeable to me at least.

I am going to try digesting the hua yen teachings and heart sutra and basic precepts, rather than working with deities for now, i am not quite sure buddhism as a whole fits my temprement, i enjoy worldly things far too much for certain buddhist teachings, but i have found chan and zen more in accord with my character than say vajrayana so far. perhaps deitie work just isnt appropriate for me in this area.
 
 
Mmothra
20:39 / 14.11.05
Another e-Sangha member here.

While I see similarities between Western ceremonial work with entities and Vajrayana yidam work, there is a very major difference: The Guru. In Vajrayana the yidam and the guru are, in a sense, boundaries for the practitioner to operate within. Without the "tough love" of the tantric guru, it is far too easy to succumb to a false sense of self (a grounding in shunyata both in theory and practice being a prerequisite for Vajrayana study) and become lost among the winding corridors of ego.

And, while you are quite right that the deities are manifestations of our own mind, yidam practice must be engaged with the faith that the deity is discernably real externally before it is "absorbed" and recognized as arising from fundamental luminosity.

Bottom line, find a teacher to work with whom you trust...

Mark
 
 
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23:25 / 14.11.05
i am not quite sure buddhism as a whole fits my temprement, i enjoy worldly things far too much for certain buddhist teachings, but i have found chan and zen more in accord with my character than say vajrayana so far

I know exactly how you feel. There's no way that I can call myself a Buddhist, but I agree with the philosophy of it a lot more than I do anything else I've looked into. Trying not to rush things has been the best thing that's worked for me so far, and even though I could've put more effort in along the way, it's been great to take it slowly and give my mind the time to adapt to what I'm working with. Don't feel that you have to pick one school and stick with it either, I think there's quite a lot of people (me included) that work with a mix of Zen, Mahayana, Theravada, etc, and not just one of them.

As for adjusting to it though, being able to carry on working with the elements of Earth, Air, Fire and Water has been something that's helped me settle a lot more. It was so cool when I first found a Sutra that mentioned being mindful of the elements, because they've always been one of the things that I've been most comfortable working with. Knowing that I can still attune to the elements and be working with Buddhism has been totally awesome.

And hey Mmothra aswell. I don't even know why I'm surprised to see other E-Sangha members here, I bet there's a good few more too.
 
 
Mmothra
17:15 / 15.11.05
I have taken refuge and do consider myself a Buddhist...for what that is worth. You might check out Reginald Ray's EXCELLENT book "Secret of the Vajra World" which examines in detail that tantric Buddhism of Tibet. There is a chart on pages 37 and 38 which detail the 9 yanas and the relationship between the practitioner and deity. Good, good stuff.
 
 
Icicle
10:26 / 17.11.05
Maybe tantra might help you if you 'enjoy worldy things.'
I know very little as I've just started reading up on it, but rather than seeing desire as a hindrance to spiritual development, tantra sees desire as the very thing that fuels us to want to meditate. A book I just read talked about 'students of the left hand' who would indulge in worldy things like drugs, sex and alchohol, and 'students of the right hand,' who would abstain.
 
 
illmatic
14:22 / 17.11.05
Tell you what, Eon, you seem so much more sane than you used to, so it (or something else) is obviously doing you some good. Is there a temple near you? Get yourself down there.

Does Buddhism really prohibit desire? Or does it recognise that they arise but advocate a more "spacious" appraoch to them? Any thoughts? Yes, I am aware of the four noble truths, but I'd like how individual practioners deal with this in their own lives. My own approach is to see desire as inevitable, but transient, not too cling and grasp too much. Works for me!
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:24 / 17.11.05
Desire i think can be approached as emptiness, that desire and attachments are empty forms. That the qualities i attach to forms are transitory and ultimatly empty.

Yet like your saying desire arises, knowledge of how desire rises, or watching (meditating) on desire as it is formed, shows its nature.

One approach may be to as blake suggests, kiss the joy as it flies into eternities sunrise, to experience the desire knowing it is ultimately empty and temporary and fully revel in its sensation and impressions without want of containing and clinging. Alot harder to practice when the desire has physicality and the sensations and impressions involved are very pleasureable, very easy then to cling to the experience and the expectation of future experience of that desire.

Perhaps prohibition is the impression given by looking at the austerities of buddhist monks, one approach i am starting to look at is the reality compared to the image.
For example i have been told by a malaysian chinese kung fu instructor that some of the buddhist monks of that area craft charms for the martial artists to increase there power and strenght, something i would of previously not associated with a buddhist monk. Perhaps it is that buddhism seems to fit very neatly into an already exsisting christianised religous template that many people aquire as they grow up. I think this is advantegous at one level, regarding the absorbing of new ideas within familiar terrain, but at another it can bring unnessecary distortions to a very different tradition.

The First Steps of Vajrayana
Yutang Lin
I am finding this quite informative.
 
 
Mmothra
21:45 / 17.11.05
I am taking a class in Abhidharma and Madhyamika right now and it seems pretty clear that the skandhas operate even for those who awaken...the difference being that they recognize them as empty and therefore don't attach. Desire is part of samsaric life...the question is how one deals with that desire. I find that the more I meditate, the more mindful I am in day to day life. It makes things somewhat difficult in that I am constantly noticing myself behaving in ways that produce suffering, but my teachers have said repeatedly that it is this recognition of unmindful behavior that eventually allows it to cease.

Dunno if this is helpful; I hope it is.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:44 / 17.11.05
Something i found useful was to focus on shapeshifting forms, mythological and real, which is where i find the clouds and water metaphors very intresting, because meditation on either of them shows there transitory nature. i used to, before kung fu during the summer, meditate on a stream before practice, my intention was to invoke the qualities of water, fluid, flowing, moving through and around easily, sinking and rising, staying in union, gathering together. The intent was originally magickal, but over time, the physical aspirations became mental reflections, thoughts began to stream, flow, reflect, ripple, sink, surface and the metaphor took on the character of watching the sea, what would be deposited upon the shore from awakening from the deep each morning, what rivers were flowing into me?

Eventually the forms lost shape and the fluidity remained, a movement. change.
 
 
illmatic
10:26 / 18.11.05
the skandhas operate even for those who awaken...the difference being that they recognize them as empty and therefore don't attach.

That's much my experience - kind of, as I tend to fall off the wagon every three minutes and then climb back on again. Cheers, I did find your comments useful.
 
 
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23:18 / 18.11.05
Ha, thanks Illmatic. Almost completely cutting the weed out and meditating a lot more has helped me quite a lot. As for Temples, I don't think there are any in Hull after checking a few times, but there's a few meditation groups about and I'll probably go to one at somepoint to see what it's like.

Does Buddhism really prohibit desire?

In Theravada Buddhism there are seven sets that can be practised. Each set is based on qualities that have been spoken about in the Sutras, and one of the sets called the four bases of power (part of right concentration) has desire as one of it's main parts, so redirecting the desire and using it to further your practise is one way that it can be worked with.

The first base is explained as :

'Developing the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion.'

So here desire would be used as one of the strengths of concentration, along with persistence, intent, and discrimination as the other three. (by just replacing the word desire with one of the three others and working on those instead, or by being mindful of all four.)


Mmothra, it's great to know that you've taken refuge aswell. That's really cool, and Middle, that last post was inspiring stuff! I'll have to try that when I'm next working on Kung Fu forms.
 
 
Unconditional Love
06:24 / 21.11.05
Archive of buddhist audio Great audio library.
 
  
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