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Marlowe- the Stones to Shakespeare's Beatles?

 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:00 / 11.11.05
Just came back from seeing Marlowe's Tamburlaine The Great, and it was excellent. Now, my experience of Marlowe is limited- I know more about his life (and death) than his actual work- I saw Dr Faustus once, many years ago, and don't really remember a huge amount about it.

But I idly commented to the guy I went with afterwards, when he said "I've always preferred Marlowe to Shakespeare" that he certainly seemed the more punk of the two. "Yeah, I've always thought of him as being more the Rolling Stones, if Shakespeare was The Beatles" was the response.

Which got me to thinking. On the strength of Tamburlaine, at any rate- huge, bloody, epic, full of emotion and rawness, but not a great deal of depth in terms of story or character (not to say there's anything lacking in the writing). Brash, cocksure, and not really giving a fuck (which is kind of par for the course when writing about Tamburlaine, I guess, but subject-wise he seemed to have been a good fit. Marlowe's Tamburlaine seems a much nicer guy than the real one, but it's still kind of hard to develop dramatic tension when the audience already knows the guy NEVER LOST A BATTLE). And his life- charges for assault, possible intelligence work (the best excuse ever for crap attendance at college, if you ask me), various crimes and misdemeanours, and then dying young and drunk in a brawl (conspiracy theories notwithstanding)...

Sorry, this is kind of a half-formed idea, but I'd be interested in anyone else's opinions to help me form the other half.
 
 
GogMickGog
10:29 / 12.11.05
There's certainly a lot more edge to Marlowe compared to the simpering history plays that Willy wrote to please various factions, but I think rawness and epic scale are not something unique to him. Shakespeare can be incredibly hard to watch- Lear, for example, with teh eye gouging, and the clifftop scene which must stand as some of the most inventive theatrical imagery ever written.

If it's that nastiness you're after (like the comedy baby-eating villain of Jew of Malta) look no further than the mighty Titus Andronicus. Most people hate it, and the characterisation is a tad shallow, but Shakespeare's beautiful language, Ovidian imagery and a thick vein of gallows humour pull the whole thing together. There's a wonderful production from a few years back with Anthony Hopkins and Alan Cumming.

So, in the Beatles/Stones context, I guess it's his Sgt. Pepper: more people admit to hating it than loving it, but those who do love...love itto pieces
 
 
sleazenation
13:18 / 12.11.05
Stoatie - did you see both parts of Tamberlaine in the version you saw? And did you catch the In Our Time devoted to Marlowe?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:57 / 12.11.05
No, I missed the In Our Time, but I imagine it was excellent as usual.

It was David Farr's new version, including both parts, yes.
 
 
sleazenation
18:51 / 12.11.05
you can still listen to it in streaming audio form if you want...
 
 
Bed Head
12:11 / 15.11.05
Stoat: the relevant ‘In Our Time’ page is here, if you’ve got Realmedia and fancy streaming it. If not and you’re still interested, I can always bung a copy onto one of those new fangled “C-90 tape cassette” things for you, if you want. It’ll be a bit more muffled, though, because I taped it off the radio myself. But it’s a good 45-minute rattle through all the interesting bits, and the discussion finishes up with your Shakespeare vs Marlowe thing, iirc.

Spinning off from your Beatles-Stones thing, and not wanting to rot your thread, but I’ve been meaning to start a thread for months now about what might be the punk equivalent to those two - or, at any rate, a thread about Alex Cox’s film version of “Thomas Middleton’s The Revengers Tragedy”. At the time of its release, Cox was making all sorts of grand pronouncements about the anti-establishment bent of Jacobean drama, and of the violently antiauthoritarian punk ATTITOOD of Revengers in particular, and generally making it all sound As Punk As Fuck. And he’s kinda chopped up the text and made a film that recalls nothing so much as early 2000AD; a film that is about as close to ‘2000AD: The Movie’ as we’re ever going to see. It’s violent in the same sort of way, and everyone dresses like they’re drawn by Kevin O’Neill or Mike Mahon, and it even has a chumbawamba soundtrack - and before anyone groans at that news, I don’t much like chumbawamba myself, and yet it’s actually rather ace.

Also: it stars Christopher Eccleston. And he’s looking particularly ravissant.
 
 
GogMickGog
12:51 / 15.11.05

Ay, I have the Alex Cox "Revenger's Tragedy" DVD at home somewhere. It's certainly true, he taps into the anarchic, nihilistic spirit of the play very well, and despite the occasional embarassing bit parters (Vacuoso..ahem..)the play doesn't suffer at all.

Middleton (or Tourner, depending on which argument you take) was a mean spirited bugger, and his sensibilities are very much in keeping with Cox's. Anyone see the Green party election vid he did?
 
 
Bed Head
12:59 / 15.11.05
Didn’t see it, although I remember there was some kerfuffle when Channel 4 went and mixed up the subtitles with those of the UKIP election broadcast. But, Cox, the sensibilities of a mean-spirited bugger? Do tell.
 
 
GogMickGog
14:14 / 15.11.05
But, Cox, the sensibilities of a mean-spirited bugger? Do tell.

Umm, perhaps the wrong choice of words (and you need only look as far as Radio and Music to see where that has got me).

What I mean is that Cox's anti-establishment attitude, as evidenced by his interests in Punk rock and the anti-establishment stance of films like Walker and Highway Patrolman, is perfectly in sync with the themes beneath Middleton's paly: it attacks the vacuosity and corruption at the heart of a society where an opulent, new nobility had risen to power, whilst dove-tailing and mocking the self-righteousness such a revenging attitude must entail.

It also features some sublime lyrical poetry to boot.
 
 
Bed Head
21:49 / 16.11.05
Aaaaahh, so that’s what you meant. *switches off chainsaw*

So there you have it from a Proper Scholar: wot a recommendation, eh, stoatie/anyone? And available in the ‘DVD for a fiver’ bin of your local HMV store! Er, probably.
 
 
Loomis
09:07 / 24.11.05
I've always been a fan of Marlowe for pretty much the reasons in this thread. Not always as polished as Shakespeare but exciting and vibrant nonetheless, not afraid of rant and bombast in his life or his work. As well as Stones/Beatles you could find other parallels such as Ezra Pound vs T. S. Eliot. Can you imagine Shakespeare or T. S. Eliot saying any of the following, all attributed to Marlowe: "that Christ was a bastard and his mother dishonest," "that St John the Evangelist was bedfellow to Christ" and "all they that love not boys and tobacco are fools."

However, comparing and contrasting Marlowe and Shakespeare is always going to be a slippery affair, as Marlowe died in 1593, when Shakespeare was only just getting started writing his plays. So though they were the same age, they were not really direct contemporaries. It's also worth noting that the stage was in transition from the morality plays of the past that were mostly allegorical and characters were archetypes rather than individuals, to what we now refer to as the Elizabethan stage. Throughout the sixteenth century, the theatre had been turning increasingly secular and morality plays were giving way to chronicle plays, from religious allegory to particular historic individuals. Marlowe harnessed this tension most notably in his greatest play Dr Faustus. His bold steps towards individual characterisation and the wonderful poetry he gave to his heroes had a lot to do with what eventually became conventions of the era that Shakespeare brought to fruition.

So we do have to be careful when comparing the two, and we can only speculate on how Marlowe would have developed had he lived, and if his plays would have become increasingly sophisticated while also retaining the striking verse. I suppose he has to be filed under the “dead rock/movie star: would he or wouldn’t he have got better?” heading, along with Hendrix and chums. However, I’m not sure if any other star who died young was described in such glowing terms as Marlowe, in Thomas Beard's Theatre of God's Judgments, published in 1597:

Not inferior to any of the former in Atheisme and impietie, & equal to al in maner of punishment, was one of our own nation, of fresh and late memorie, called Marlin [printed marginal note: Marlowe], by profession a scholler, brought up from his youth in Universitie of Cambridge, but by practice a Play-maker, and a Poet of scurrilitie, who by giving too large a swing to his owne wit, and suffering his lust to have the full reines, fell (not without just desert) to that outrage and extreemitie, that hee denied God, and his sonne Christ, and not onely in word blasphemed the Trinitie, but also (as it is credibly reported) wrote bookes against it, affirming our Saviour to be but a deceiver, and Moses to be but a conjurer and seducer of the people, and the holy Bible to be but vaine and idle stories, and all religion but a device of policie. But see what a hooke the Lord put in the nostrils of this barking dogge: so it fell out, that as he purposed to stab one whom he ought a grudge unto, with his dagger, the other party perceiving, so avoyded the stroke, that withall catching hold of his wrest, hee stabbed his owne dagger into his owne head, in such sort, that notwithstanding all the meanes of surgerie that could be wrought, hee shortly after died thereof: the manner of his death being so terrible (for hee even cursed and blasphemed to his last gaspe, and together with his breath an oath flew out of his mouth) that it was not only a manifest signe of God's judgement, but also an horrible and fearefull terror to all that beheld him. But herein did the justice of God most notably appeare, in that hee compelled his owne hand which had written those blasphemies, to bee the instrument to punish him, and that in his braine, which had devised the same.
 
  
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