BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Terrorism Bill

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Malarki
17:53 / 06.11.05
Surprised there doesn't seem to be any discussion of this here but the Terrorism Bil currently going through Parliament could have serious consequences for forums such as these. From the reports I've read, the bit that's really worrying me is the prohibition on "glorifying" terrorism. For a thorough analysis see Liberty's commentary here - Liberty Briefing - particularly paragraphs 4-11.

In short what it could mean is expressing support, sympathy or understanding of, or being interpreted as doing so by whoever reads it, any act of violence carried out by a non-govermental group in any media, no matter however legitimate or not you may believe their cause to be and however oppressive the regime, could lead to charges against you under this bill on grounds of "encouragement of terrorism", should it become law. It could also lead to the prosecution of those hosting those comments - such as newspapers, broadcasters or those hosting internet forums. This has the obvious freedom of speech connotations, but goes further as confirmed by Charles Clarke as it would include those who express support for the actions of animal liberation "extremists" such as the ALF or those who express some understanding or sympathy for Palestinian suicide bombers. These examples were picked up in little commented upon article a couple of weeks ago in the Guardian - Guardian Article - in relation particularly to statements made by Cherie Blair regarding Palestinians. While this particular example was denied by Clarke, it is contended by Liberty to full within the Bill's remit. He goes on to admit that expressing support for those who may use violent means to oppose the Burmese or Zimbabwean regimes, such as the Shan people in Burma, would fall foul of the bill. Of course, expressing support for violent regime change by a couple of rogue states wouldn't fall foul of the bill as that's not terrorism, is it? Or for that matter expressing support for an oppressive regime, like say China.

Whether or not you believe in the supposed terrorist threat in the UK, or support the "war on(of) terror" globally, surely this is a step too far in a supposedly liberal democratic regime? And a further tool in the armoury of those allegedly trying to destroy western democracy and all its superior advantages over any other type of society, as well as a victory for them. As Liberty point out, existing English law already prohibits incitement to violence, racial hatred, etc., so there is no need for such a law.

I would also contend that should this become law it would actually run counter to its objective. "Extremists" would become isolated and their views and grievances could not be aired in public and therefore subject to critque which may lead to abandonment, dilution or compromise of their "illegitimate" ideas. As such, there would be a greater danger surely of the festering of fundementalist ideals and therefore a greater likelihood of extreme acts being carried out. Or is this maybe what the government wants? Anyone read Toni Negri's Crisis of the Crisis State?

One last point to consider is that the BNP are given party political broadcast slots in the run up to elections, and they are a blatantly racist party and yet it is surely better to let them air their plainly ludicrous ideas because then all can see what a load of bollocks they talk (also when they show their faces you know who to punch when you encounter them in your local supermarket). Yet I see no intention in this bill to band the BNP!!!????
 
 
w1rebaby
18:16 / 06.11.05
Well, yes. Here's a couple of things to think about.

1. Is there actually anything wrong with people suggesting that the only way to stop the UK state murdering people in Iraq is to murder people in response? You know, terrorism. After all, their greivances simply aren't going to be addressed through parliamentary process in this country. A utilitarian point of view might well involve the conclusion that bombing the Tube was the best way to prevent general suffering.

2. Would any serious person ever want to allow the government to ban the BNP?
 
 
Malarki
18:39 / 06.11.05
A utilitarian point of view might well involve the conclusion that bombing the Tube was the best way to prevent general suffering

I am considering a citizen's arrest.
 
 
Ganesh
18:50 / 06.11.05
Why?
 
 
Malarki
18:58 / 06.11.05
Coz I interpret it as encouraging terrorism, and further to that I want all those involved in running this forum charged as well for conspiracy to promote terrorist acts.

See what I mean

Plus I've always wanted to make a citizens arrest, its so Quincey.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:10 / 06.11.05
The bill's not law yet, mind.

But I am actually serious. You're talking about "extreme acts" as if they were a bad thing. What else, really, is the government going to listen to apart from consequent violence as a result of its violence, something that is going to terrify the British population enough for them to really get serious about demanding a withdrawal from Iraq, rather than the half-hearted "oh I'll go on a march if I can get a day of work" stuff they've been doing so far?
 
 
Malarki
20:14 / 06.11.05
No it's not law yet but the focus of the debate is on the right to hold without charge, bad enough admittedly, not on ones ability to express an opinion contrary to the legitimised discourse without fear of prosecution. Just like parts of the CJA 94 that many of us protested about have never really been used, the parts of this act may never be used, or may never have the subsidery legislation enacted to bring them into force.

However, the point of my starting this thread was not to debate the legitimacy of using violence to achieve political or other ends. Indeed, it is arguable that one can only achieve ones ends by engaging in means that those who oppose you will understand and that will hurt them seriously enough to make them take notice. For example, there's no point talking to many big corporations about ethics coz the only thing they understand is profits and unless you can persuade them that ethical behaviour is enlighten self-interest then you got to hit them in their profits. So so-called "extreme acts" may be the only language they understand but my point is that if this bill becomes law with these provisions in place we may well not even be able to have this discussion without the risk of prosecution, and the prosecution of those who facilitate the medium by which we are having it. Personally, I find the acts of Palestinian suicide bombers entirely understandable, the "insurgency" (see Manufactoring Consent on that term) in Iraqi quite legitimate and as an anti-humanist I am sympathetic to organisations like the ALF. Although the armchair, or computer chair, is a much more comfortable place to exercise my anarchist tendancies nowadays.

Hello Menwith Hill possee!
 
 
whothehell@where?
20:53 / 06.11.05
ever wonder if they're not instigating these radical violents intentionally? if a majority can be convinced to endorse the reduction of civil liberties the democracy must respond to the will of that majority
 
 
w1rebaby
09:21 / 07.11.05
I was being a bit deliberately argumentative with those posts I must admit. Not directly on-topic.
 
 
Malarki
17:13 / 07.11.05
ever wonder if they're not instigating these radical violents intentionally? if a majority can be convinced to endorse the reduction of civil liberties the democracy must respond to the will of that majority

Yep. Like I said read Negri who had first hand experience of this in Italy in the '70s (think he's still technically exhiled) and of course Chomsky can produce volumes evidencing it.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:03 / 09.11.05
A vote.

Erm... I know this is really anal but the results of this poll currently say 43% are in favour of 90 day detention.
Could some of you go and vote...
 
 
Malarki
14:15 / 09.11.05
Erm... I know this is really anal but the results of this poll currently say 43% are in favour of 90 day detention.
Could some of you go and vote...


Link? Would help if some of us were MPs though.

BBC Poll you mean this one?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:16 / 09.11.05
The link's right there.
 
 
Malarki
14:21 / 09.11.05
Derrrr, sorry, trying to eat, read postings, be ill....at the same time...
 
 
sleazenation
15:16 / 09.11.05
90 days has been defeated, the opposition amendment of 28 days was accepted- So, two defeats for the government.
 
 
Supaglue
15:28 / 09.11.05
Just heard.

Can't really be happy - 28 days is bad enough....
 
 
sleazenation
15:38 / 09.11.05
Indeed.

It remains uncertain if the Lords will vote 28 day down or not.

Would the 28 day amendment stand if the Lords vote the bill down and the government resorts to the Parliment Act?

If so, are the Lords more likely to agree to 28 days as a means of preventing the 90 days clause from returning from the dead...

The sunset clause has been added too, but I'm not sure how much importance I place on that - I believe that a similar clause underlines the establishment of the Army during peacetime...
 
 
Claris Dancers
15:50 / 09.11.05
Defeated
 
 
Mourne Kransky
15:51 / 09.11.05
First time since 1997 that having a House of Commons has mattered.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:40 / 09.11.05
Good golly. Have you seen the interviews? Uncle Tony is fair vibrating with rage...
 
 
Ganesh
19:57 / 09.11.05
Anticipating them with pleasure.

28 days ain't great but, to me, it's not that bad either, possibly because I'm used to the Mental Health Act, which initially allows one to deprive someone of their liberty for up to 28 days, pending independent legal tribunals, etc., etc.
 
 
w1rebaby
20:52 / 09.11.05
What's this thing about a fight in the Commons?
 
 
sleazenation
21:09 / 09.11.05
Some whips taking their title too seriously?
 
 
Ganesh
21:14 / 09.11.05
Not sure that it was in the Commons. According to the Standard this evening, there was some sort of fracas between two Labour MPs (one rebel, one Blair loyalist), in which one allegedly called the other a "faggot".

Nice.
 
 
Morpheus
21:20 / 09.11.05
After seeing Blair win and win so often, it just feels good to look at his digital image and say...you are a loser.

28 days is 25 days to long.
Isolation is a way to an ends.

Prison is no fucking joke. And all of this to fight terror, the same type of terror Blair has inflicted on thousands of innocent arabs.

It might have passed if he was the first arrested.

"See you in 90 days Blair."
 
 
Ganesh
21:44 / 09.11.05
There's talk already of Blair's plans for his eventual exit - which finally seems relatively close at hand. On the strength of tonight's Baaad Loserism, I fully expect him, when the time comes, to announce that he's LEAVIG THIS FUCKING GOVERMNENT FOREVAR!!1!1!!! And, being Blair, he'll staccato-enunciate all those 1s.
 
 
Supaglue
08:39 / 10.11.05
Would the 28 day amendment stand if the Lords vote the bill down and the government resorts to the Parliment Act?

I think the Commons just run it through again and hope the Lords stand by teh Salisbury convention. Otherwise it'll turn into a god awful crisis.

Wondering if the bill will breach the European convention for human rights? Art 6 - fair trial within a reasonable time.
 
 
Malarki
13:24 / 10.11.05
Wondering if the bill will breach the European convention for human rights? Art 6 - fair trial within a reasonable time.

Seem to remember that the Convention has clauses about national security and effective border controls which can be invoked where the rights aren't absolute (know right to life is absolute and think there's a couple more) and don't think art. 6 is. Could be wrong though? Would like to see someone like Bindmans or Liberty do a test case.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
14:39 / 10.11.05
Though I've been in the UK for over two months now, somehow I avoided being exposed firsthand to The Sun until this morning.

Wow. Just, wow. Oh, those craven, backstabbing rebel MPs who have treacherously betrayed Tony Blair and their duty to the British public and thrown the gates wide open to terrorists. Run and hide, everybody, London will be burning by tomorrow!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:00 / 10.11.05


It's like the Falklands all over again, really.
 
 
Supaglue
15:16 / 10.11.05
Seem to remember that the Convention has clauses about national security and effective border controls which can be invoked where the rights aren't absolute (know right to life is absolute and think there's a couple more) and don't think art. 6 is

I think to derogate from art 6, they need to declare a state of national emergency. Apparently we're in one at the minute, but the wording only seems to relate to Northern Ireland. Might be wrong (not uncommon that!). Sure it is open to challenge.
 
 
Supaglue
15:17 / 10.11.05
Didn't know Omar Bakri is now the head of the opposition..
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:31 / 10.11.05
Rather than try and find a reasonable way to sort this out Blair has called the MPs that didn't vote for him 'detached from reality' and 'a bunch of slags' (OK, one of those quotes is a lie, try and guess which one), his unwillingness to move on this point, the fact that he seems to consider 28 days detention as being appeasement to the terrorists makes me wonder what's going on. He seems fixated on 90 days. He seems not to care that police can hold someone for ages if they don't charge them. He seems not to care that the MPs have voted in favour of shipping people to countries that officially do torture. He now seems to be presenting as Thatcher did right before they stuck the knife in her back and put her out of our misery.

The bit where he went "Did you say 'police state'?" yesterday was chilling. He looked like he was going to jump over the despatch box and knife the Tory who he mis-heard.
 
 
Malarki
20:44 / 10.11.05
Anybody else noticed that Tony's eye has started twitching in that slightly disturbing way more than usual?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
21:00 / 10.11.05
He's beginning to look a bit like the twitchy twitchy Bruno Ganz in Downfall.

Troubling coda to the BBC London News at 10 there. A "news" item was that "Londoners are unhappy with MP's who voted against 90 day detention and are worried about their safety from terrorist activites". This accompanied by black and white background shots of the fragrant Vanessa Feltz listening to some of the foaming-at-the-mouth brigade phoning her on her radio chat show. wtf? This is supposed to be NEWS?
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply