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How dare you take our culture, or do books work?

  
 
Rev. Wright
18:12 / 14.01.02
This is a thread that started out in the books section. PLease read the start of the thread there and then continue.

It has become clear that there are two parts to this thread; The act of passing on teachings within the Medicine lore by book, compared to the oral tradition, and the ethical reasoning of passing on teachings from indigenous peoples, when one is not of that race or creed.
Both of these issues are currently intertwined, and may seperate, but please feel free to comment on any part of this thread.

[ 14-01-2002: Message edited by: William Wright ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
15:25 / 17.01.02
One other thing about authors who reconstruct traditions: I can completely support someone's attempts at such as long as they aren't passing their stuff off as the same thing the original cultures practiced.

I really admire the way Freya Aswynn stated her intent in her book 'Leaves of Yggdrasil'.

In it she says right up front that since so much had been lost that she had reconstructed a lot of info and that also a lot of the info was from personal experience. By stating this right up front the reader knows exactly what they're getting.

I especially like the passages:
"From the synthesis of the runes and the myths, I have reconstructed a magical system using modern occult training. I hope this synthesis will provide the occult world with a valid alternative for those occultists working in various other traditions and will help to encourage the development of a Northern Mystery way alongside the Western Mysteries."

and

"So the task at hand is to delve into the original sources as far as possible, and from there to extrapolate the trend and follow this line of imaginary development up until the present day, thereby to restore the old Northern religion, integrated and acceptable, in a twentieth-century environment, backed up and emphasized by twentieth-century occult techniques (without the questionable benefit of twentieth-century politics!)."

In my opinion, that approach displays a lot of integrity and puts me at ease, knowing what I'm being fed.
 
 
cusm
15:38 / 17.01.02
Ayup. Knowing that, I got a lot more out of her book than I might have otherwise. Leaves was a goodie. I mean, she cites Lieber Null in the bibliography. You know what you are getting into, there.

As for publishing the ancient and sekret traditions of indigenous peoples, I'm afraid I'm firmly in the camp of the Information Age. Data brought into our culture is data preserved for possible use that might otherwise have been lost. The time of sekret and hidden lore is long over now that you can find it all on Amazon.
 
 
Rev. Wright
16:02 / 17.01.02
But at what price?
It is all good to have the information available, but is it not caught up with a price tag. This is on ething that puts me off buying many books, on the other side I persevere with practical experience and attempt to learn things through the oral tradition.
I believe Lothar talks about cases where writers and exponants of traditional info, have been accused of selling tribes out. Is this the blight of Capitalism on Medicine Lore?

Even the oral tradition finds itself in illrepute, when I see the price put on lectures and talks gievn by 'experts'. Is this a money thing?

I agree that Freya has gone along way to state and usae and ethical approach to her work, and I admit to being strongly influenced by her. It does seperate her from the New Age approach to making a quick buck.

I personally have to look at various other traditions information, presented by whatever means, as an attempt to re-establish a tradition within the UK. A line that was heavily broken by Christianity. We Are the indigenous population, and our roots are cut and rotting. ( I am not personally willing to use Wicca, I find it a Pagan form of Christianity)
 
 
cusm
16:34 / 17.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Will 'it work' Wright:
But at what price?

If the work is good, the price is justified as compensation for their effort. Its like supporting an artist you like. If it gets enough support, it'll find its way into a library eventually so everyone can benefit from it. Or it'll end up in digital form on one of those CDs that float around on the internet. I got Crowley's (nearly) complete works that way for $1 + shipping that way.

Granted, I'm an archivist when it comes to this sort of thing, and can afford to purchase books. So I do, and loan them frequently so they get use. Capitolism may be evil and all, but its giving people an incentive to do the work to publish these works in the first place. They wouldn't be available to me otherwise, so I support it if for only that reason.

I personally have to look at various other traditions information, presented by whatever means, as an attempt to re-establish a tradition within the UK.

Had any luck with that, by the way? Its been a recent object of study for me as well. The closest I've found is Freya, and her work is built on a Wiccan framework.
 
 
Rev. Wright
17:15 / 17.01.02
The 'At what price?' question also leads on from a comment Lothar made with regards the upset that certain authors have caused through profiting from traditions. Kenneth Meadows was the original point of focus on this point, is he making money of the back of Native American traditions? (for more on this please check the link at the start of this thread)

quote: Had any luck with that, by the way? Its been a recent object of study for me as well. The closest I've found is Freya, and her work is built on a Wiccan framework.


This is something I would really like to talk about. either in another thread or privately.
 
 
cusm
18:43 / 17.01.02
The points I see so far are:

1) Tribes angry that sekret lore is being revealed
2) Sloppy acedemic discipline among New Age writers in crediting research vs their own interpretations
3) That they are profiting from the spiritual lore of a people at all

1, I've made my stand on as a "freedom of information" advocate. I wish more sekret lore was made available, even. Asatru being the recent example that would benefit from it.

2, Lothar has covered well. This problem has led me to not take any claims of authenticity seriously unless I hear them from a native practicioner, or unless its a wholey acedemic work, not intended to start a cult. Its a rampant problem, but an old tradition in occultism. If you can credit your ideas to an ancient and sekret order existing since the time of the ancient Egyptians, it'll sound better than if you admidt it was your own thoughts. I hate the practice, personally. It ruins attempts at historical acedemia.

As for 3, that's a karmic issue, I'd think. It'd depend on if they are doing "the right thing" with it, which isn't something I can make a call on, that's for sure.

Or is the question just really, is Kenneth Meadows loathesome?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
19:31 / 17.01.02
quote:cusm wrote
1) Tribes angry that sekret lore is being revealed


I tend to think of it more as:

Tribes are angry because they feel that their cultural property is being stolen and then resold by members of a culture that has continually done horrible things to them. Now that there are no more physical resources to steal (uranium etc. notwithstanding) spiritual ones are the next to be taken.

Which kind of gets back to the arguments about intellectual property (or in this case spiritual property).

The reality is very complicated since in most of these cultures there are multiple camps with multiple ideas of what should happen to 'their' beliefs.

But for hypothetical questions:
When is it ok to take ideas/practices/beliefs from someone else when they don't want you to?

When is it not ok?

Is there a difference between information needing to be free and a spiritual 'plaigarism'?

Is it wrong for someone to discover someone else's diary and then publish it against their wishes?

If so, then is it similarly wrong to publish a 'culture's' diary against their wishes?

No easy answers but hey, it's been a long time since some hard 'head shop'-y topics have come up in The Magick.

[ 17-01-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
19:35 / 17.01.02
Also, the Kenneth Meadows thread that this one spun out of spun out of this one about Carlos Castaneda.
 
 
cusm
19:55 / 17.01.02
Ouch, that is tough. We make stands for the rights of individuals to privacy, but what about groups of individuals? Should a culture have the same rights as an individual?

My explorations into the nature of consciousness lead me to believe that groups of like minded individuals aware of the group and acting as a part of it (such as a culture) are in fact a viable consciousness that can be affected and affect in all the ways an individual consciousness can. The math is the same, its just a higher order. By this, shouldn't a culture be respected as one would respect an individual?

So with this in mind, when does the good, safety, or technological needs of a larger group justify the violation of the rights of a smaller one?

Ideally, one might think it shouldn't. In reality, it seems that the bigger Ape wins, every time.
 
 
Rev. Wright
07:17 / 18.01.02
Brian is suffering from a terminal illness, and modern science can offer no cure.
Whilst on holiday in South America Brian's brother, who is aware of his dilemma, comes across a tribal medicine man. The medicine takes Brian's brother into his house for the night, because he has nowhere to stay na dit is custon to treat visitors with much respect.
During his stay that night Brian's brother witnesses a ritual treatment of a very sick child, from within the tribe, by the medicine man. The medicine employs a ritual dance and song, as well as applying a paste made from secret herbs. The child shows remarkable instant recovery that night.
In the morning Brian's brother has the opportunity to get access to the paste without anyone noticing, a substance that he believes would help his brother no end.

What does Brian's brother do?
Does he take the paste without saying anything, offer it to medical science so that they can cure his brother?
Does he make a deal with teh pharmicutical companies if it works and many can be treated with this cure?
Does he confess to the medicine man about his dilemma, and ask to be trained as a medicine man so that he can treat his brother, and others, away from the village?

(this is a rather crude story, but I hope it adds to this thread)

[ 18-01-2002: Message edited by: Will 'it work' Wright ]
 
 
Ierne
11:52 / 18.01.02
Will "it work":
Major assumption taking place here: that the sick child is suffering from the exact same illness that Brian is suffering from. If they are two different illnesses, the paste could very well end up hastening Brian's demise.

Antoher issue to keep in mind is that the connection between the sick child, the medicine man, and their shared community is quite different than the relationship between Brian, a pharmecutical company, and the hospital that would presumably give Brian the medicine derived from the paste.

[ 18-01-2002: Message edited by: Ierne ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:14 / 18.01.02
Or Brian can contact Shaman Pharmaceuticals who may already be working with that tribe.

I know a few people who work at Shaman P. (they're local to where I live) and they really do seem to be doing good ethical work.

To a lot of these tribes, getting the money and resources to protect their environment and the planet is the number one priority. And a lot of these native healers don't have a problem with healing outsiders as long as it doesn't put their community at risk.

Shaman P. does it's best to provide a win-win situation for both sides.

I'm sure the reality isn't quite as altruistic but they're still providing a viable alternative to the old model of 'we'll just take what we want and make a profit while we cut down your rainforest.'

[ 18-01-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
grant
14:29 / 18.01.02
On and off I've been reading Alan Watts' The Book (on the taboo against knowing who you are) and can't help but find it relevant to everything that goes on here in Barbelith. It's good stuff.

Walking to work this morning, came across this passage (written in the mid 60s, it sounds like he's discussing neo-liberalism):
quote:...few of us have ever thought through the problem of what good such enterprises are ultimately supposed to achieve. When we have fed the hungry, clothed teh naked, and housed the homeless, what then? Is the object to enable unfortunate people to help those still more unfortunate? To convert Hindus and Africans into a huge bourgeoisie, where every Bengali and every Zulu has the privilege of joining our special rat-race, buying appliances on time and a television set to keep him running?

It seems pertinent.

Also: for a lot of this stuff, it seems like books ain't the right medium.
Paper is no replacement for a human teacher, especially in traditions where one-on-one, navigate-by-feel instruction is tantamount - where the mysteries are mysterious because they are, in part, non-verbal.
So the books aren't just plundering the spiritual resources, but mutating and polluting them.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:53 / 18.01.02
quote:Originally posted by grant:
Also: for a lot of this stuff, it seems like books ain't the right medium.
Paper is no replacement for a human teacher, especially in traditions where one-on-one, navigate-by-feel instruction is tantamount - where the mysteries are mysterious because they are, in part, non-verbal.
So the books aren't just plundering the spiritual resources, but mutating and polluting them.

Well said Grant. Even if you take 'workshops' instead of having an actual teacher it's hundreds of times more effective than trying to put 'book teaching' into practice.

In my humble opinion

Also, once you've learned some stuff experiencially it makes understanding and implementing the book stuff easier.

[ 18-01-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
cusm
15:05 / 18.01.02
I know I learned all my best stuff that way.
 
 
Rev. Wright
12:08 / 19.01.02
I gott aadd that for myself and others I have met, much of what I have learnt is through asking questions to people who may be able to give me answers to the bizarre shit that has gone on in my life since early childhood. Medical science wanted to class me as being ill or disabled, whilst spiritual mentors have given me the ability to make good of it.
This learning can only be done in person (I have found out recently since graduating I have difficulty with reading and writing, self healed to some level), and by personal experimentation and practice.
A cliched example of the mutation of any tradition can be seen in holy texts such as the bible.
But unlike the National Library, who cremated 60,000 titles in a clearence (Aaaargh), I am not a book burner.

(The Brian narrative was supposed to be based on assumption, Brian 'believes' in the healing power for his brother, and yes the relationship between the Medicine community is indeed different from the Medical company triangle.)

I propose that we start a thread in Magick to allow people to post details regarding talks, lectures and all things of an oral tradition. I know that there is already a events section, but would it not be best nestled with this section?

[ 19-01-2002: Message edited by: Will 'it work' Wright ]
 
 
cusm
15:30 / 21.01.02
I'd think just posting details in a new thread here would be appropriate. Folks do that on occasion, to share something they've seen/experienced.
 
 
Wyrd
09:21 / 24.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
Well said Grant. Even if you take 'workshops' instead of having an actual teacher it's hundreds of times more effective than trying to put 'book teaching' into practice.

I'd generally agree with you here, Lothar, except to remind you that not everybody gets "a" teacher. It's a lot tougher to make your own way, but you can do it if you have to.

And sometimes workshops are very useful as a way of showing you how not to do something.
 
 
The Monkey
09:21 / 24.01.02
Okay--hopping over from the Carlos thread--
in addition to the "how dare you commercialize our culture!" aspect of these things, there's also the fact that the societies we're reaping all of this secret lore from aren't very democratic: spiritual power/mana/whatever is decidely NOT for the masses. A shaman is selected and trained, first by an elder shaman, then by the spirits. In most cultures in the initiation is a ritual/actual death experience.
That is one serious fucking triage process.

Most indigenous cultures have a very stratified idea about religion...who gets to know what. We post-Protestants think of matters of spiritual truth as being the right of everyone. This does not mesh, or bode, well.

[edited to remove the snide, flippant bit]

[ 24-01-2002: Message edited by: [infinite monkeys] ]
 
 
Rev. Wright
09:21 / 24.01.02
If only it was a staright forward as that, and there were not loopholes to avoiding that test. Money/Gifts seem to a great corruptor when one wishes to aquire information or get to play on a speed boat.
 
 
The Monkey
12:11 / 24.01.02
Good point, but I've yet to see a monograph on it. However, since shamanism is a clientele-based service industry, it wouldn't work precisely like the old European trad of bribing a son into a comfy rank in the priesthood: tribal groups can and do switch shamans if they feel the old one isn't worth the goods exchanged as prices. Shamanism also isn't very often hereditary, either.
Nonetheless, the potential for corruption must exist, especially in more sedentary, monetary-economy cultures that still possess shamanic elements to their religion: Korea, for example.
 
 
adamswish
13:30 / 24.01.02
But surely any passing on of the "tradition" is a good thing.

As Wrydd said it's hard to find a teacher or like minded people to experiment and experience this sort of stuff (and we should all be grateful for having this place to do so).

And books can act as openers. God knows after reading severel Crowley and RAW titles (and I know these aren't the authors we're discussing here) I want to continue in my studies. And if the only way is to practice, read and, fortunately, talk to you guys than that has to be the beginning of my path.

One would hope that any author who is using ancient cultural traditional are doing right by the culture (good I wish I was more arcticulate). And in this information age it's fairly simple to "name and shame" those who are making a pig's ear out of the information and only in it for the money and glory.

[ 24-01-2002: Message edited by: adamswish ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:45 / 24.01.02
Yay! Wyrd's back!

quote:Originally posted by Wyrd:


I'd generally agree with you here, Lothar, except to remind you that not everybody gets "a" teacher. It's a lot tougher to make your own way, but you can do it if you have to.

Yup. I agree with you. Especially since there are many different shades of gray in the 'teaching' vs. 'do it yourself' spectrum.

Some people who are already very intuitive and talented may have been learning from themselves and the spirit world their whole lives and info from books or other human 'teachers' is just supplemental.

Some people might just need to be taught some of the basic tools so that they can begin to experience and 'listen' properly to themselves and the 'spirits'. After that point they're up and running.

Other's (like most personal anthropological narrative protagonists) are so dense that they need a dedicated teacher to spend many years hitting them over the head with the spirit frying pan before they get a clue.

Most books, don't teach the reader how to really make use of the info within which leads to an 'addiction' to buying magical and spiritual books where the buyer keeps hoping that the next book will 'be the one to give them the answers'.

Books also don't give encouragement when the student has doubts or questions or when they reach those plateaus of 'I'm going knowhere with this. I just SUCK!' when you shed parts of your old ego.

Which also gets to the matter of discipline. I think more often than not, when people seek out a teacher and/or classes(in anything, not just magic) they are also looking for someone to help them develop discipline.

Discipline is in itself a powerful spiritual tool and if you aren't developed in it, it usually takes another person to help you along.

quote:
And sometimes workshops are very useful as a way of showing you how not to do something.

Heh. Some of my best teachings have been those contrary lessons. I remember a year or so ago, signing up for a workshop in a subject that I was interested in culturally. I didn't expect it to be mindblowing, just interesting.

As the weeks became days, I started having these dreams that I was going to be given vital and powerful knowledge during the course of the workshop.

The weekend progressed and while I thought the people doing it were lovely and admirable people, the teachings were pedestrian and frankly, boring. But the knowledge hit me: I realized that I was done with workshops and I think that's when I really stopped feeling like an 'undergrad' and started feeling like more of a beginning 'journeyman'.

It was powerful and vital knowledge but not what I expected.

[ 24-01-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Rev. Wright
15:39 / 24.01.02
I know this is a little off the thread, but Lothar you reminded me of that perculiar experience as one develops. I'm sure it has alot to do with, as you say, shedding the ego.
It those points where you suddenly find yourself at the beginning again. As though all that you have experienced, done and learnt has disappated, and you are left feeling inert.
I've been in and out of this phase again recently, like a flux, and it gets rather unerving. As I would say, ' I'm taking teh lantern apart, removing the crap bits and building back together with better parts'.


[ 24-01-2002: Message edited by: Will 'it work' Wright ]
 
 
trouble at bill
12:08 / 01.02.06
I've been rereading this thread with interest and just thought I'd mention that this recent book here has addressed this very subject in some detail.
 
  
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