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My college has a huge problem seperating church and state

 
  

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Ender
13:28 / 03.11.05
At Snow College in Utah 96% of students and faculty are LDS (mormons). And the sheer nature of the beast, prayers and church announcements are not uncommon in the class rooms.

Prayers never happen before class, or any thing like that, but clubs often pray before meetings, and students address teachers by their church titles.

All Administrators are also high up church leaders, and regularly ask me about my religious standings.

I have personally sat in on three classes where the professor asked members of the LDS church to raise their hands in class to prove a point, and then asked all the young men that had served a 2 year LDS mission to raise their hands, and then the professor (each time) said, “Ladies, look around, these are the young men that you should be dating.”

There is much more, and as I am sure you can sense, my frustration level is very high, and ultimately the question is –why am I staying here?- the answer, full journalism scholarship, with paid housing and a monthly stipend. I am really building a resume here. I was offered such a sweet deal I could not not come to Snow College.

But even so, should I have to be singled out on a daily basis? What should I do? Is this a problem that can be fixed? I have talked to the proper authorities on campus, and they said that although Snow is a public and state school I am falling victim to the culture, and that the school itself practices separation of church and state. It is the faculty and students (encouraged by the faculty) that don’t. Dead end.
 
 
Smoothly
13:47 / 03.11.05
Ender, can you enlighten the ignorant a bit about what the rules regarding the separation of church and state are? For example, judging by the brouhaha last year, I’m aware that it’s not on to have a monument to the Ten Commandments in a courthouse. But I gather that in the same court, oaths are sworn on a bible. Don’t children in public schools swear allegiance to ‘God and to the flag’? What’s the score exactly?
 
 
Sekhmet
14:33 / 03.11.05
The separation of church and state in the U.S. is a pretty thorny subject. It's all theoretically based on a clause in the Constitution stating that

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

You'll notice that this is about keeping the government from establishing a state religion, or restricting religious practice; it doesn't say jack about prayer in schools or monuments at courthouses. What we're really working with now is a set of legal precedents that have been set by various court decisions over the years. It's pretty shaky ground in many ways.

Ender, you might check in with the ACLU or the FFRF. They might have resources you could use.
 
 
Jub
14:54 / 03.11.05
There’s a nice little history of the whole state and church thing here.
 
 
grant
16:09 / 03.11.05
Locate non-LDS faculty and ask them how to survive.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:17 / 03.11.05
The best thing you can do in a situation where people are judging you for having a different point of view is be courteous, without giving in to them, and present yourself as confident without being self-superior. That way, you don't give your critics any amunition apart form their own intolerance.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
17:33 / 03.11.05
Alternatively, get yourself a black leather trenchcoat, a couple of piercings and an 'Arm The Poor' t-shirt, then slouch about the faculty hallways in a vaguely threatening manner* - If the gurlz on campus are being encouraged to date Mormon boys by their college professors, FFS, then they should absolutely go for this new version of you.


* I'm assuming you're not doing this already
 
 
Ender
01:49 / 04.11.05
Thanks guys. I had a good day of progress today, the dean of students (who I am employed by) was today demoted from his dean status for his many many attempts at cornering and belittling me about my lack of LDS pride.

Yeah, I guess my complaints were taken much more seriously than I had originally thought.

I feel pretty good about my future here.

If any one is interested, I would be happy to post a paper that I wrote to the president of the college, the one that has recently received attention.
 
 
Jub
07:39 / 04.11.05
Yes please Ender.

I'm always interested in things like that. Be delighted to read something from someone from the front lines as it were.
 
 
LykeX
14:57 / 04.11.05
“Ladies, look around, these are the young men that you should be dating.”

I wonder about this. Are there no feminists at your college at all? I can't imagine anyone saying something like that and still having his nuts intact.
 
 
Claris Dancers
14:58 / 04.11.05
I, too, would like to see it.
 
 
sleazenation
15:25 / 04.11.05
I would have been minded to add 'Just as long as you don't all marry the same young man, since that is frowned upon these days'...
 
 
Claris Dancers
15:48 / 04.11.05
Oh yeah, mormons - you could theoretically get some gnarly group stuffs going on with all those good little religious types! “dum-dum-dum-dum-dum!”
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
23:55 / 04.11.05
Ender, I suggest before you burn any bridges you see if you can get in on the ground floor of any of their real estate, protection, or money laundering swindles. The establishmentarianist Mormon types are the most trustworthy criminals in America.
 
 
Logos
00:09 / 05.11.05
1. Convert.

2. No, convert them.

3. Move to another school, in another state.

OK, honestly: since you're going to a private college, separation of church and state is not a legal issue, unless they actually do something discriminatory against you. You've chosen to go to a heavily LDS-centric college, due to an attractive financial aid package, so there's really not much you can do. It's like going to the Citadel and complaining about the haircuts and pushups--its part of the territory.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
00:24 / 05.11.05
Snow is a public and state school
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
06:05 / 05.11.05
Yes, strangely, when the Americans say "public school", they talk about schools that are, you know, public. I've never understood that. Not like here in Blighty.
 
 
fuckbaked
07:36 / 05.11.05
that sucks, dude.

I guess I would suggest that you pick your battles carefully and that when you do you make sure that you have the law on your side. I think it was very good that you complained about the things the dean of students was saying to you, because the things he said were totally inappropriate. I'm also glad that the school took your complaint seriously and dealt with it.

On the other hand, I don't think that praying before club meetings is illegal. It's possible that the clubs at your school are communally run by students and that, unlike when a teacher leads a class in prayer, the students at these clubs are just deciding to pray for their own personal reasons, and since there are so many Mormons, nearly everyone there prays and it just seems like an organized part of the club, when it's really not. You can't get students to stop praying on campus, and unless they're being mean to you for not joining them, it may be best just to let them pray. I really don't know of the legal precendents for what is and isn't allowed, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt, but it's a good idea to make sure that something is actually illegal before you complain about it to administrators.

I think it's a good idea to remember that if you're complaining about something or someone at your school, the person to whom you are complaining is probably a Mormon, and they probably belong to the domanant (Mormon) culture of the area where the school is located. Everyone has biases, so obviously the person to whom you are complaining will have biases, and they will probably think of the situation in your school as normal. I know you probably realize this, but I just wanted to mention it because I think it's very important to understand someone's perspective if you want to try to convince them of something.

students address teachers by their church titles

Although it's never happened to me, if a teacher asked me to address them by their church title, I would do it. Since I've never been in that specific situation, I don't really know what the connotations would be of calling someone by their church title, but I'm imagining it's a lot like the other titles people have acquired and wish to be addressed by, like Mrs., Dr., Professor, etc. For example, even if you think marriage is a rediculous instituation, if someone asked you to call them Mrs. Doe, you would do it, I imagine. I had a professor a while back who wanted his students to call him Doctor (lastname), and I found it very formal and odd, since I had gone to a high school where the teachers all used their first names, but I think it would be inappropriate to call someone by something other than what they wish to be called, so I called him Dr. (lastname). I quickly got used to it.

I actually have put a bit of thought into the issue of what one should do if they feel uncomfortable calling someone by the name they ask by which to be called, because for many years, people refused to call me by my preferred name.

I am a transsexual (female to male), and I chose a boy's name for myself when I was a kid (a very common boy's name). Almost everyone I knew (parents, friends, teachers, classmates) refused to call me by my chosen name until I was about 15 years old. I found it extremely insulting. Even though I can understand that it seems strange to a lot of people to call someone who appears to be female by a boy's name, I don't think my teachers, or anyone else for that matter, have a right to decide what my name should be. (I also legally did not have the right to alter my body to make it appear more masculine, due to my age). Now everyone (except my parents) calls me by the correct name, and I feel very lucky to be in such a situation, so I think that it would be extremely inappropriate for me to call other people something other than what they wish to be called. I don't have any problem with nicknames, mind you, as long as the person being called by the nickname likes it. Some people call me by nicknames, and I call some people by nicknames. I think if I were to refuse to call someone what they wish to be called, I would need to have a very strong reason for doing so, and I would need to be able to articulate it clearly. I would also need to talk to them about it to explain my objection and to see if there's something they wouldn't mind me calling them that would be less objectionable. I've never had any objections to anyones names, but it could happen, I suppose.

(to give a Barbelith example, if someone on here didn't want to swear, and thus didn't want to call me by my barbelith name, "fuckbaked", I would suggest they call me 'baked. if they didn't want to call me by something that is a drug reference, I would suggest they call me "fuck". if they didn't want to do either, I'd probably change my name to something like "fuckbaked the biscuit" and suggest that they call me "f.b." or "biscuit". since "fuckbaked" is just my barbelith nickname, I'm not really attached to it, and I don't really care what people on here call me. I am very attached to my name IRL, and if an acquaintance flat refused to call me by my name or by an acceptable nickname, I would avoid them. If a teacher refused to call me by my name, I would file a complaint with my school.)

I know I'm rambling here, but.... Many of your teachers probably enjoy being called by their church titles because they are likely very involved with the church, and they have earned their title. They're probably proud of it. They may think of it as a part of their name in the same way that "Mrs. Doe" might think of Mrs. as a part of her name.

I know very little about Mormon culture, so I really don't know what the church titles mean, but as I said before, I think that unless you have a very strong reason for not calling them by their titles, a reason that you can easily articulate, it's probably best to call your teacher what they wish to be called. I realize that the example from my own life is not analogous, but I also think it can be hard to understand just how insulting it can be for someone to call you a name that you don't like until it has happened to you repeatedly. (If someone who refused to call me by my name had a name like Robert James but they liked to be called "Jim", I'd sometimes call them Robert a few times, and they'd sometimes get very mad, but if I tried to explain that I was just trying to allow them to expirience what they were putting me through, they'd start saying all sorts of crap like "but Jim is my real name! ***** is not your real name!..." It seemed absurd to me that they felt that it was only acceptable to call me by my birth name, when "Jim" wasn't actually their birth name. I know "Jim" is a common nickname for people named "James", but there is technically no "Jim" in the phrase "Robert James", and just because their choice of an alternate name is more common does not mean that it is more acceptable, at least not to me.)

I wish you luck in dealing with the situation at your school. I don't know if it's your first year, or if you've been there for a while, but it sounds like you probably feel pretty isolated by the religious and cultural difference between yourself and the other students at your school. It might help to find places that non-Mormons are likely to hang out at. I'm not suggesting that you avoid the Mormons, and you'll probably end up having a lot of Mormon friends, if you don't already, but it could help you get used to the situation if you find people that you feel you have more in common with. If you belong to a religion, you might want to find out if there are social events at your church, if your religion meets at a church (or some other sort of building where people gather to pray and learn about their religion). If your a Pagan or something like that, I don't really know how you would go about meeting other Pagans in the area, but it might help to find a bookstore that specializes in books that are of interest to Pagans, and to go by there and tell the people who work there that you're new to the area (if you're new to the area), and ask if they know any good ways of meeting other Pagans in the area. If you're not religious, there may be other ways of meeting people who aren't Mormon. I read a fictional book a while ago (what a horrible source of information! laugh at me, please) that took place in Utah, and if I recall correctly, the Mormons in the book didn't drink alcohol or coffee. I don't know if it's accurate to say that Mormons are unlikely to drink alcohol or coffee, but if it's true, it would mean that coffee shops and bars would be full of non-Mormons. If you start hanging out at a comfortable coffee shop (bring your homework if you can get homework done in such an environment), you're likely to start meeting people there. If you're old enough to hang out in bars and that's what you're prefer (or if Mormons actually drink coffee, but not alcohol), then that might be a good route, too. If you don't already drink, and you're planning on hanging out in bars, don't feel as though you have to drink to hang out there. You will probably feel self conscious hanging out at a bar and not drinking, but if you find a bar with pool tables, then I'd suggest that you try to learn how to play pool. If someone asks why you hang out there when you don't drink (which they probably won't), you could just tell them that you saw people playing pool on tv, it looked fun, and you thought you might like to learn the game, if you don't already know how to play pool. I'm not trying to be condescending right now, I just don't want to tell someone who doesn't drink to start hanging out at bars, have that person feel like they have to drink to hang out there, and develop a drinking problem because of it. Coffee shops are probably a better place to meet people, but I'm just trying to come up with some ideas, ya know?

I didn't realize until I started replying that I had more than a couple of sentances to say. Eek.
 
 
modern maenad
09:04 / 05.11.05
Ender - thanks for posting on this. My world (Oxford, UK) is so secular its mind boggling to imagine living in such an explicitly religious community. Have you thought of keeping some kind of record of what's going on and using it in present or future journalism? In a way it seems your experience is pretty unique, and exactly the kind of thing other people like to read about - I'm not talking about the sensationalist confrontations with authority, more the mundane stuff. I'm assuming that the majority of your course colleagues are Mormons too - how is this influencing the teaching and general treatment of journalism? At the point that you graduate how will the Mormon presence have shaped your training as a journalist? It feels to me that if you can possibly step outside the situation you may have an amazing opportunity in front of you to write something really unique. I'd definitely be interested in reading more about how you're getting on.....
 
 
Alex's Grandma
09:05 / 05.11.05
If you start hanging round at a comfortable coffee shop...

Everything, BF, is likely to go a bit 'Friends' on you. Which would be awful.

But enough of my (and everyone else's) yakkin' - what does Steve think about all this?
 
 
Ender
17:42 / 05.11.05
Here is the paper that I wrote and turned into members of the administration. I toned it down a great deal because, yes they are LDS. Now I say some things about the dean of students that are a bit hard to believe, but after an investigation into his dealings he was found to be unfit to serve as dean of students anymore, and after a lengthy ordeal over the last month, he has been demoted back to the general faculty.

“God, may I have a choice”
The founding fathers of this country took great steps to protect the rights of the citizens, to worship whichever god they choose; however they choose. But it would seem to me, in my own personal experiences that many Christian lawmakers, administrators, facilitators, and college professors view the separation of church and state as a burden, and not something to be grateful for.
Snow College, for example, is vastly dominated by people of the LDS faith, (Latter day Saints). The administration, the deans, many to most of the professors, and ninety percent of students at Snow are LDS.
Although the vast majority of people at the college are LDS, it is still common to hear the question, “Are you LDS?” I have heard it asked almost everyday. I have been asked this question near the beginning of almost every conversation I have ever had with a person upon first meeting them. Administrators, deans, and professors have asked me the question (sometimes very slyly) at the beginning of many meetings. I have thought about the question, and wondered at length, why do people ask it?
My foregone conclusion: it sets people at ease to know that there is someone of similar belief sitting or standing before them. The knowledge establishes common ground.
Meeting a stranger from your religion is like meeting a stranger that went to the same High school. He or she may have had the same teachers, taken the same classes, can laugh about some of the same things, and share a common knowledge of the area. Think about the glee and bliss generated by a chance meeting with a stranger who knows your old friends and can share fun memories.
The question “Are you LDS?” is one of the most common (and unintentional) forms of persecution to any student that answers “No”. I will be the first to defend the good intentions of many of my fellow students. I don’t believe that students have any desire to persecute or exclude others that don’t share their religious beliefs.
But they do, just by following their faith. The LDS institute of Religion has classes and activities that are designed to help strengthen the bonds of those that participate. This is a good thing. The LDS institute and the church have activities Monday night, Wednesday night, and mostly all day Sunday, with the occasional Institute Stomp or banquet. Students are also strongly urged to take at least one class from the institute; many students take as many as three.
Students that are not LDS are always invited to come and join in the activities and classes. But almost all non-LDS students say that they feel “extremely uncomfortable” at the activities. For a non-LDS student to go to an LDS function is like an LDS student going to a catholic or Hindu function, it might be fun to try once, but it doesn’t feel right, and is not something that they want to have pushed on them week after week.
The LDS students that are actively involved in the activates form bonds with others that are actively involved with the activates. It is human nature to form close bonds with people you spend large amounts of time with, especially when you are doing things that are of great importance, like learning about your god and worshiping him. But that leaves many of the non-LDS students out of the close nit groups. This is also a natural thing, less time together and large differences of belief result in a smaller bond.
Often the LDS students and the non-LDS students form polarized groups that rarely meet, for anything, ever. Many of the non-LDS students leave after one year at Snow College saying that they just don’t feel at home here.
For most, the LDS faith and the culture of Snow College are the same thing. But for me, that is unacceptable. Jon Ostler, former bishop of a college congregation of the LDS church, and dean of the library, says, “The lines between church and state are often blurred at this school.”
Jon says that while he was a bishop, students would regularly call him bishop on campus, and he would need to remind them that between the hours of nine to five his name was Jon or Dean Ostler. Students would go as far as to have emergencies and need to talk to him, as their bishop during working hours. He would at times leave work to meet with them a crossed the street from campus in the institute building, but their were a few times when the emergency required him to close the door to his office at the library and deal with business there. Jon said that these time made him feel very uncomfortable, and he told the student that there could not be a next time.
Jon Ostler, in my opinion is an example for how the issue of separation of church and state should be handled on this campus. I was witness to him reminding people that his name was Jon, and not Bishop, while on campus. But even though there are a great number of LDS leaders that deal with the separation tactfully, there are a good number that don’t.
A freshman from Seattle, Sean Burrows, had his first experience with the issue of the separation between church and state the day that he moved into his new dorm, Nuttall Hall, a state owned building. Sean was moving his boxes from his car to his dorm room. And as he entered the dorm, a local bishop put his arm around him and said, “Hi! Welcome to Snow College, are you LDS?” Sean said that he was not. And the bishop said, “Well, why not?” I believe that the bishop was trying to make light of the situation, but Sean did not find it amusing. And he came to get me, I am the Resident Assistant. It is my job to help the residents of the hall in any way that I can. So I asked the bishop if he would refrain from inquiring the religious status of each of the residents of the hall as they came to check into the dorm. The bishop however then turned and asked me what my religious status was. I told him that what I believed was not important at the moment. The bishop said that he was upset that I was trying to “impede the work of god”. He made me feel small, and he had three other older men from the church who all said there piece to me, they had set up their information all over my “check-in” table in the front lobby. I was intimidated, so I retreated into my room. I asked the men (who stayed another two hours) to refer anyone who wanted to check into their room, to me.
Sean was not the only non-LDS student that felt violated by the curious bishop. Most students in the dorm were eager to meet the bishop and his helpers, and were gathered around my check in table (that was now the headquarters for recruitment and paperwork central for the bishop). There was high energy and excitement in the room. All new students, a new bishop, and new college ward and everyone was getting to know everyone else. The LDS students got a glimpse, on the first day, of who the “non-members” were. The rest of the students, any student in Nuttall Hall who answered “no” to the question of “Are you LDS?” was instantly and unintentionally persecuted against.
Sean comments, “My first week at Snow was a mind trip. I felt like I had stepped out of the country, or gone back in time, or left reality of something!” Sean told me that where he is from people would never ask another person what religion you are.
That was on Friday, the bishop came back again on Saturday, and again on Sunday, this time setting up a station for an hour just several yards down the hall from my room. I was glad when the weekend was over. Monday morning I went to work early, 6:30 a.m., it was the first day of school and I wanted to get a head start on the week, little did I know that the issue of the bishop in my dorm was far from over... I work in the Student Life office as a Drug Prevention Specialist (peer mentor and drug counselor). My desk is in a clump of other desks that belong to the student government, lead by Dean of Students Lynn Schiffman, who has an office at the opposite end of the large room of cubicles.
Dean Shciffman comes into work and upon seeing me says, “Ben, I was wondering, did you leave the church?”
And I said, “What?”
He again asks, “Are you LDS anymore or what?”
And I said again, “What?”
Then he says, “Well, I heard about you kicking out the bishop from your dorm.”
And at this point, a number of heads (student government) look up from their desks.
I then said, “I am not comfortable talking about this.”
He said, “It is a simple question, why did you kick the bishop out of your dorm?”
I responded, “It’s a simple matter of us both being state employees in a state building, and on the clock, and I don’t feel comfortable talking about religion.”
Dean Schiffman then turned to look at the other students in the area and then back to me, “I am just asking you to claim your religion, are you LDS or not?”
Again, I said, “This is highly inappropriate.”
He then said, “You either are LDS or not, this is your spirituality here, what could be more important than that?”
Finally I said, “I can see that you are not listening to me, can I talk to you in your office?”
I started walking toward his office, he waits a moment before following, and then says, very loudly and still in the common area, “I just want to say for the record that I am disgusted by your behavior this weekend, I thought that I knew you, but I was wrong, I can not believe that you were impeding the work of god.”
I went in his office first, he came in after and did not shut the door, and was still talking about how out of line I was. He looked at me, I looked at the door, he looked at the door then back at me and smiled. I got up and shut the door.
I said, “for the record I am not comfortable having this conversation, and I am only in this office because you are my boss.”
He said, in brief, “Bishop Rackhem is a dear friend of mine, and you really offended him this weekend. It was not so much that you asked him to ‘tone it down’ as if that was not bad enough, but the fact that you would not claim your faith. Do you understand the gravity of this?”
At this point I was sucked into the religious aspect of what he was saying, he was speaking to me as my stake president and not my dean. I asked him, “Are you interested in hearing my side of things?”
Dean Schiffman replied, “No, it wouldn’t change my view of things, I have known Bishop Rackhem for years, and I trust him completely. You need to apologize to him; you need to apologize to me, and to President Barton. And you need to repent for what you have done. And I hope you give your actions some serious thought.”
I asked him, “Are you angry at me?”
He responded, “Yes Ben, I am angry with you. I just cannot believe that you would set such a bad example for others. And I get a bit angry when people try to get in the way of the work of the lord.”
I realized at this point for my own good, I needed to say I was sorry, and do as he says; the man is my boss after all. So I did, I said, “Lynn, I am sorry. I did not mean to cause such a problem. I will do what you ask.”
And I left his office and later that day called the ACLU. And he left his office and went directly a crossed the hall to my supervisor, over campus housing, to ask to have me disciplined for my actions. My supervisor, Bob Oliver (also a leader in the LDS church) told Dean Schiffman, “I will have to talk to Ben about this issue, he should have had the bishop and his men leave immediately. Snow College is now liable for a lawsuit.” In the state policy it says that residents will be protected from religious solicitations of all kinds. And the fact that I had let the bishop stay, especially after resident complaints, left the college vulnerable.
A meeting was called for all of the on campus resident assistants, and the policy was discussed. No bishops, teachers, or missionaries from any church were to be allowed to stand in our around common areas of state owned buildings, and they were not permitted to knock on random doors, and may only visit residents on appointment.
The dean was not pleased. And I have been targeted and bullied ever since, and I have heard reports from members of his student government group that he whispers about me being a bad influence on students, and to “stay away from Ben Fox”.
I ask that you look at the following from the eyes of a student that is not LDS, and is in fact very happy with the faith they have and don’t want to be converted in any way.
The LDS church advertises its activities in partnership with the school-organized activities. The two groups often share space on the same signboard. The LDS Church has a listing of all of their activities and functions on the school activity calendar given out to all students. The LDS church has its activities announced on the school’s live voice bulletin. The LDS church puts a flier on every door in every state owned dormitory inviting students to take classes from the LDS institute. I received a flier that said, “Don’t be a DUM DUM, join institute.” The flier had a DUM DUM sucker taped to it. The LDS church assigns students to knock on every door in each dorm reminding students when it is time to leave to arrive at a church activity on time. I have had a number of residents ask me to have this stop, but it is students doing it, and not officially.
The school gives the LDS church a list of all students enrolled, which the Church then compares to a list of students enrolled in institute. The Church puts together lists of “students to fellowship” and assigns a small list of un-enrolled students to an active member, and asks that student to go out and befriend, fellowship, and convert the un-enrolled students. Like Jon Ostler said, “The lines get blurry here.” We have students doing the work, not church officials. But if it were church officials working for the school would it then not be illegal?
The main sidewalk (twice the size of any others) runs east and west, with smaller tributary sidewalks running a yard off of the main drag to all the buildings on campus. On the east side of campus the sidewalk ends at the stadium, where the campus ends. But on the West side of the campus the sidewalk ends at a crosswalk which leads to a walk the same exact size on the opposite side of the road which takes you uninterrupted into the double wide doors of the LDS Institute of Religion.
School policy is affected by religious beliefs. More than 1000 condoms were sent to Snow College in college survival kits compiled by national advertisers. Dean Schiffman ordered student government to remove the condoms from the packs before they were handed out. When asked he stated that he felt that it is morally wrong to promote sex to a college of largely unmarried students.
Also in order for any housing operation to get listed on the Snow College housing list they must have all students sign an honor code contract. The contract states that they will abide by a 12 a.m. curfew for weeknights and 1 a.m. curfew for weekends (no guests over after that point) will not drink, posses drugs or alcohol, or be intoxicated or inebriated on premises, even within the residents own room. And there can be no use of tobacco within 25 feet of the grounds owned by the organization, and residents that do smoke may not keep their cigarettes in their apartments, or their car if they park it within twenty five feet of the property. 95 percent of students say they find housing from this list, and more than 90 percent of housing available in the city of Ephraim is on the list.
If a student is caught drinking, or even with any blood alcohol level at all, in his or her apartment they are kicked out of the housing, without a refund, and put on academic probation from the school, both of these penalties are inflicted even if the student is 21. He or she is then sent to an in school rehabilitation program of about 30 hours.
I don’t remember ever seeing any law anywhere saying college students over the age of 21 cannot drink. I personally work with the students sent to the rehabilitation. And most of the kids that get in trouble for drinking are from out of state, and not one of them so far this year has been LDS. I am not the judge or the jury with any of these students, but I my heart goes out for these people that get stuck paying close to $1000 in fines and lost housing money, and have to spend hours and hours in a rehabilitation program that they have to “admit that they have a problem” when all they did was drink a beer, and to them it is not wrong. That is the point that needs to be clear; to them (those of them that are 21) it is not wrong.
Many professors will find a way to ask the returned LDS missionaries to raise their hands in class, this continues to happen, and every time it does the everyone looks around, and the question can always be heard, “Oh, so and so, you didn’t serve a mission?! Oh man, I thought that you would have served a mission for sure!”
I was the student government reporter for the school newspaper last year, and as such was present at many government-planning meetings. Dean of Students Lynn Schiffman would often ask members of student government “how will the institute react to your decision?” about their choice of D.J. for an activity, or their choice to show a PG-13 movie on movie night.
The LDS Church has a semi-annual conference, with a number of meetings spread throughout the weekend. And I was present to hear a student ask Student Body President John Vincent, “What activities are planned for this weekend?” and John replied, “Conference.” And he was right, that was the only weekend that the student body officers didn’t plan an activity.
I pose this question: should I, or others, be persecuted (intentionally or otherwise) because we chose to come to a state school that is predominantly of one faith? And if it were pointed out to the members of that faith what they were doing, and how it made the few non-LDS students and faculty feel, would it make a difference?
 
 
Ender
17:47 / 05.11.05
Oh and by the way, the closest bar to where I am is about 30 miles, and they can not get a liscense to serve any liquer, they can only serve beer. The closest real bar is about 100 miles away.

And there is one coffee shop in town (Mormons are strongly against coffee and tea), but it is a small shop run by an anti-mormon christian group, that has been sent here on a mission to "save the mormons" I do go there often, but it is always hosting bible study or some other type of religously skewed thing. Which is cool with me, I just dont want to go hang out at a place like that for fun.
 
 
HCE
23:41 / 05.11.05
Against TEA? Bastards.
 
 
alejandrodelloco
01:24 / 06.11.05
You really ought to brew a very smelly coffee pot constantly in your dorm room. Invite kids in for coffee.
 
 
Ganesh
01:38 / 06.11.05
They're against booze, coffee and tea? What the fuck kind of bars/cafes do Mormons actually approve of? Pick-a-wife shops?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
01:52 / 06.11.05
Can't be easy standing up to prejudice and persection when it's apparently ubiquitous, Ender. Well done you! I have to confess though that I find the Mormon faith one of the more ridiculous religious options around, so my cheers and encouragement of your resistance are redoubled!

Hope you have the strength to do this for the long haul. I guess what you have to look out for, in particular, is revenge being extracted by pissed off professors, in the form of marking your assignments down etc. I had a bit of that to deal with as an out and proud gay student with a big mouth in Scotland in the seventies and that worked out OK but I think your fight might be harder yet.
 
 
Laughing
03:52 / 06.11.05
Ender, you rock. I had to deal with underhanded religious persecution myself for years and you're handling it much better than I ever did. Keep it up!
 
 
quixote
19:27 / 06.11.05
Ender, I can't decide whether you're admirable or crazy. There's no necessary distinction between the two, I guess.

You're in that hellhole to build a resume, you noted. I do agree with maenad from Oxford that you have an opportunity for some unusual reporting about your experiences there.

Other than that, though, have you given any thought to how much of a downer for your future career a degree from this place is likely to be? That is, unless you want to spend the rest of your life working for Mormons. I'm afraid narrow-minded religions of all stripes have not made very good names for themselves as regards any discipline, and the tendency among selection boards (I've been on a few academic ones) is to say, "Whoopsdale Free Will Baptist Academy? I don't know. We'll have to look this over very carefully." Or, most likely, nothing at all is said and the application goes into "that" pile on the edge of the table.

Transfer out as fast as you can, is my suggestion. Money isn't everything. Also, don't forget that you're going to need references. What kind of letters will you get from this place? Besides, you probably have more than enough material to get a good advance on a book about life among the troglodytes.
 
 
Isadore
23:07 / 06.11.05
Well, you could always come north to Idaho for a wee while. We have real booze and a tea shop and Goth/Industrial Night on Sundays in Boise. (Of course, you still have to drive to Oregon if you want to buy Everclear.)

It's good to hear that the dean was demoted, and that others are backing you up. In my experience Mormons are good neighbors when in the minority but extremely overbearing if they feel that they get to call the shots. Give 'em hell!
 
 
■
09:33 / 07.11.05
Or Scotland. Drinking, smoking, swearing and tea are practically compulsory here.
 
 
Axolotl
09:59 / 07.11.05
I kind of feel sorry for any Mormon missionaries up here*:
"So, I'll have to give up tea, booze, smoking and swearing? Get to fuck, and don't let me catch you pedalling your craziness round here again"
They may not be compulsory, but what else would you do to fill the long, dark, winter evenings.

*Not that sorry really, they've only themselves to blame.
 
 
Cherielabombe
20:36 / 07.11.05
This sounds so nuts. Scholarship or no, I don't know how you put up with it. Don't these people know that college is the time for heavy drinking and promiscuity??!?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:09 / 07.11.05
Are you gonna start shouting "spring break" again, Cherry? I shall cover my ears.

Ender- a transfer out sounds like a good idea. Although the more principled stance would be not to do so... good luck with whichever.
 
 
Ender
22:28 / 07.11.05
This thread has been good for me. Thanks to everyone for the window of sanity. Really, being at Snow College has made my grasp on reality a bit shaky.

Good news, I have decided to leave Utah all together for the next school year.

I have learned much about myself, and feel that my time here has been well spent and will be fruitful in my future.
 
 
Cailín
02:24 / 09.11.05
It's sad, but my first thought when I read the start of this thread was, "Dude, get the fuck out of Utah." While it might seem terribly noble to stick it out, this particular college doesn't seem the place for you (or anyone who's vocally not LDS). Unfortunately, you seem to have come across a type of intolerence most of us can't begin to comprehend - but then again, it's Utah, and it's like a whole other world. I've seen the CBC documentary about the child brides they ship to Bountiful, British Columbia, and it scares the hell out of me (not to say that the entire state is like this, or that all Mormons practice forced polygamy, but the fact that it goes on and the church seems to turn a blind eye to it while condemning 'outsiders'... damn). I'm sure there are plenty of other schools that will want you to attend, and in the end, you'll likely be able to write a couple of terrific papers about your experiences. Good luck.
 
  

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