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Identifying with characters of the opposite sex...

 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:14 / 25.10.05
Thinking about it for all of two minutes I realised the other day that I identify far more with the plight of young men in novels on the general fiction shelves than with female characters. This seems to me partly to do with the bad quality of female characters who always seem to be dealing with a crisis surrounding men/relationships in a very specific way and without much surplus joy but also because I can't find a way into the mothers head or the girlfriends head. It's not so much that these characters are girlfriends or mothers, more that this seems to be a primary function of their roles in so many novels. Even Chrestomanci's friend/wife Millie is primarily his friend/wife.

I wonder if this has not marred my relationships with real women in some way, as if I expect them to start nagging at any moment or leaving or generally causing some sort of little-desired anxiety for all of us. Of the novels I've read this year the female characters were a sex object/teacher, a murderer, a student with a bit of an alcohol problem and a miserable outlook (no hope there despite being interesting), a naive girlfriend, a flighty girlfriend, a sex addict, Hermione Granger, Miss Marple and Nan from Witch Week. Frankly only the last two gave me anything to actually grip onto and Marple regularly gets people killed.

So, what the holy mother of the cat-herding tribe am I talking about? Why did I start this thread? Well primarily I'd like to know if I'm wrong. Perhaps there are happy, interesting women in fiction who aren't having issues and aren't boring? Perhaps you could identify them? Or maybe you too, young lady, are identifying more with the men, old, young or middle aged in the novels that you read? I'd like to know, with examples.
 
 
Char Aina
00:59 / 26.10.05
isit aprotagonist thing? i almost always identify with the protagonist of a book way more than i identify with a supporting character.
as you mention, female characters that have proper protagonist roles are not as common as they could be.
perhaps that's all it is?
as a woman with ideas and the drive to do your own cool stuff( forgive my assuming) i can imagine you'd find characters who share your gender or sex but not your outlook would be harder to relate to.

dude, i related to lord fanny, and i am hardly a tranny of any description.

are there any books that stick out in your mind as having female chartacters you can relate to?
 
 
OJ
08:24 / 26.10.05
There's an old-chestnut of a conversation that could be had here - the one about whether you need to identify with the protagonist. So I'll avoid that.

Ian McEwan recently contended that "when women stop reading the novel will be dead," because we make up the vast majority of the readership if not the novelists, so on that basis alone your question is interesting.

Thinking about my recent reading, which is pretty much the sort of literary fiction Ian McEwan is talking about (plus a bit of drama and poetry), it's a pretty mixed bag.

Kazuo Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go is narrated by a pretty haunting female character, who is rich, flawed and not a martyr despite circumstances. Alan Hollinghurst, on the strength of the two novels I've read doesn't seem to write women at all unless as monstrous monoliths (Thatcher is less a character than a gorgon bestriding the narrative) or one annoying self-destructive victim type. Annie Proulx writes a lot about American men and their inability to communicate. Ali Smith clearly writes complex female voices....

But in terms of identifying with what I'm reading, I would say that I recognise when I identify with the authorial voice more clearly than identifying with a character. So, for example, I love Sarah Waters' writing but I'm not identifying with Nan's crush on an actress or the Dickensian thieves' crushes on each other, or the prison visitor's entanglement with a manipulative prisoner in Affinity. What I am identifying with is Waters' knowingness, I'm in on being a literate feminist who is just itching for those female characters to defy the (dead)ends and resolutions Dickens, Wilkie Collins or Henry James would have had in store for them.

Many of the writers who are on my non-existent list of novelists whose latest I will always rush out to buy are female. Carol Shields or Margaret Atwood for example. There are many qualities to Margaret Atwood's writing of course, but one of the things I specifically like about the way she depicts female characters is that she "gets" inter-female jealousy, rivalry, undermining, competitiveness etc in a way which male writers often don't, or don't attempt to write.

So, no conclusion from me really.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:03 / 26.10.05
one of the things I specifically like about the way she depicts female characters is that she "gets" inter-female jealousy, rivalry, undermining, competitiveness etc in a way which male writers often don't, or don't attempt to write.

That's one of the things that I dislike about the way women are presented in serious literature. I can't think of a single woman who I feel jealous of, have a rivalry with, wish to undermine or am in competition with anymore than might happen with a man. I feel perfectly ordinary dislike of people on an entirely even basis. I can't identify with the notion that women are different from men in this way, I've yet to see any evidence that these characteristics exist primarily within inter-female relationships in my everyday life. In fact it suggests to me a perceived exclusivity of gender on the author's part that frankly irritates the hell out of me. In reality when people start along these lines (male or female) I want to clip them round the ear and I find I can't change my natural response for a book. This might be more generational than gender-orientated but it means that (off the top of my head) Anne Fine and Margaret Atwood fall into the bad representation of women file for me.
 
 
OJ
10:33 / 26.10.05
Ah controversy! Margaret Atwood doesn't *just* represent women in conflict with each other. Think of Alias Grace or Lady Oracle as examples of her novels that I rate, where the female characters aren't in any way bitches. In the books where she does, she is astute and subtle enough to explore the reasons for the conflict - the most obvious example being the wife/handmaid in The Handmaid's Tale. Also competition between men is a driving force in Oryx and Crake , so I don't see that destructive relationship as being reserved for women in her books (the chief female characters in that book are elusive and always slightly beyond the grasp of the male protagonists, which is another story.)

I was using the term "bitches" quite sarcastically above by the way as I equate what you say above with the sort of cardboard cutout angel/bitch dynamic of Hollywood's sickliest romcoms (step forward America's Sweethearts).

Okay, so you don't have to be a fan of Margaret Atwood - but maybe it would be helpful if you could put your finger on what sort of female characters you might identify with. In what ways are they allowed to be flawed, that won't turn you off?
 
 
Jack Vincennes
10:42 / 26.10.05
Or maybe you too, young lady, are identifying more with the men, old, young or middle aged in the novels that you read?

Yes, I do, and I'd not thought about it before. Thinking about it though, I think it has something to do with this -

I would say that I recognise when I identify with the authorial voice more clearly than identifying with a character

-but am interested to know, what proportion of the books you read are written in the first person? Because I think that part of the reason I identify better with male characters is that they seemed to be allowed, far more than female characters, to be a 'blank slate' -if a female character is writing in the first person, every single aspect of her emotions seem to be transcibed, which means that it's harder to impress one's own experience of being a woman on those characters. I'm thinking specifically here of the last two books I read with female narrators -neither of which I enjoyed, and in neither case was it entirely the narrator's fault -which were We Need To Talk About Kevin and PopCo. In both of those, the narrator seemed so eager to tell the reader exactly what she was feeling or thinking at any one time that my ability to relate to them dropped off so fast whenever she thought / felt something I considered inauthentic.

Anyway if you think about the male characters in the first person in an author like Murukami or (drawing a mental blank on people who write first person male characters, so I'm going to go for) F Scott Fitzgerald, the way the main character is feeling is almost never mentioned; less direct identification is being asked for, maybe the ambiguity there makes it easier to put yourself in their place and build up an identification with them.

Then again, when the 'saying everything' technique works, it's stunning -Margaret Attwood's Cat's Eye described being bullied as a child so well I actually found it scary -but I felt the the novel dropped off a little when she was describing her life as an adult, possibly because I couldn't identify with it as directly. Still, if that's one of Attwood's you haven't read I'd certainly recommend it if only to hear what you think.

As for interesting female characters in books -I find it hard to believe that I've not already mentioned Lolita. She doesn't meet your criteria of not having issues, but the way she deals with them and the way her dealing with them is portrayed is, I think, interesting enough to warrant a recommendation here. Have got that and Cat's Eye at home so if you want to borrow either or both let me know.

That might all be a bit general -since it's based on the books I can remember right now I might be doing women in literature a great disservice, but it's actually worrying me that I can't think of many strong female characters weren't written in the first person.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:02 / 26.10.05
Well I was specifically thinking of characters written in the first person who were male and female and found that I identified more with the examination of the thoughts and feelings of the male characters.

I confess I'm not a fan of Margaret Atwood's characters at all, especially those in The Handmaid's Tale, which I never manage more than half of because it's so miserable. The female characters that I identify with tend to be the focus of novels aimed at young adults rather than adults. I find them less narrow, they tend to have moments of real happiness that I can understand and I find this lacking in books aimed at the older market. I am not more miserable, complicated or confused than I was at the age of 14 (complicated in a different way certainly) but imagined women seem to be more negative in every way.

Female characters that I like: Banana Yoshimoto's but then they don't really differ from the men and her books are always about death so the misery is rather identifiable and serious. I'll try to think of some more...
 
 
Ariadne
11:38 / 26.10.05
This is alarming me - I feel I ought to be able to come up with some characters to refute this, but off the top of my head, I can't. I will, damn it!

But I do know what you mean about female characters often being so full of angst. It's unusual to read about someone who is just living, being happy, getting on with things - where events that happen, just happen, they don't have to have traumatic repercussions and deep-thinking attached.

It would be easy to get the impression that all women, especially by my (advanced!) age, are bitter and hurt and just terribly sensitive. In the 'arty' bookshelf, that is - the other ones on the 'popular' shelf are just desperately looking for a man, a new washing machine and a bay-bee.
 
 
Cat Chant
13:10 / 26.10.05
I've just finished writing an essay on identification and Mary-Sue stories, and one of the loose ends I was left with was the question of whether it means the same thing for a person to be a woman in the real world and for a character to be a woman in a fictional world. To some extent it clearly doesn't mean the same thing, in that fictional characters are made to be women as part of a text's construction of gender*, but I think people too easily assume that gender is an unproblematic axis of identification (that character is "like me" in a particular way).

I haven't thought about this much yet, and this looks like a good thread to do it in, so thanks. My own take on it is probably that I have a tendency to prefer books with single-sex casts (girls' school stories, gay and lesbian fiction), because I don't really like narratives where sexual difference is a major signifying axis.

*Of course, real-life women are made to be women (hello, Simone de Beauvoir!) as part of a society's construction of gender. But I think real-life women have more agency than fictional ones in important ways.
 
 
OJ
14:04 / 26.10.05
-but am interested to know, what proportion of the books you read are written in the first person?

If you're asking me (or Nina Skryty, I'm not sure), I'd have to say that I really don't know. It's not something I look for or note particularly. It's certainly less noteworthy than the gender of the author even.

I have marked a bit of a fashion for first person narration in popular literary fiction of late - from the aforementioned Ali Smith and Kazuo Ishiguro to Geoffrey Eugenides, Paul Auster etc. But it could be just coincidence in what I've been reading.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
20:04 / 26.10.05
At that point I was asking Nina -I was struggling to think of a book with a female protagonist that isn't written in the first person, and I wondered whether part of the problem was the narrator being too close to the plot, or the author putting too much of themselves into the narrator. Still, since you've been reading lots of first person novels (almost wrote FPS there, must sleep more), do you think that's a problem? Does anyone else think this (over-identification?) might be a problem with the way women are portrayed in novels?
 
 
Jack Vincennes
10:27 / 27.10.05
Sorry about the double post, but -what about Miss Smilla's Feeling For Snow? That's written as a first person narrative, and Smilla didn't (I thought) play any of the traditional roles Nina mentions above. I'm not sure I'd say I identified with Smilla but I certainly engaged with her, so that's another recommendation from me.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
16:13 / 27.10.05
funnily enough,

I swing the other way - I identify with female characters moreso (regardless of the narrative perspective). I suspect that having read hundreds of novels, dramas, poems in the course of my education & leisure, that there is a dearth of solid female characters.

Jeanette Winterson, Julian Barnes, Iris Murdoch, Bill Shakespeare, Steven Erikson (fantasy novelist I'm reading att the moment - he has an excellent gendre balance), Kathy Acker, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, all present intriguing female characters.

I think it was the Enid Blighton I read as a youth. And I'm always impressed whenever a female character comes to life, as they are so often (particularly in Hollywood film) only foils for the male protagonist: girlfriend, mother, etc...

Alan Moore is definitely worth checking out (graphic novels - but he writes like a novelist). Particularly the Promethea series.

ta
tenix
 
 
quixote
17:47 / 07.11.05
I don't know if I can mention something pigeonholed as low(er)-brow in this literary list, but--

Try Lois McMaster Bujold's "Shards of Honor." The protagonist is also the main character in the sequel, "Barrayar," which is also highly worth reading. One of the best portrayals of a character who feels real, is female, and is also the hero of the story. The stories are sort-of science fiction page-turners about imperial conquest, love, and, of course, honor.
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:26 / 07.11.05
I'm interested in this question, in part because on reflection I just don't quite see where you are coming from. Its true that I can't think of any female characters I'd identify with, but then I am a bloke. On the other hand, I can't think of any male characters I identify with either. For me, reading involves losing yourself in a book, empathising to a certain extent yes, but in the sense of adopting a role.

Now I agree that this can get extremely irritating if the book assumes that one finds the portrayals intuitive in some way which aren't - I never understood why I found Bridget Jones so excruciating irritating until someone explained to me that thats what we are all like, really. Having said that, I can understand that you could get very annoyed at the fact that a disproportionate number of protagonists are male but I'm still a bit baffled at expecting to *identify* with a protagonist to any serious extent. Take John Fowles as an example, since he died today. Would you really expect to identify with any of the characters in the Collector? I wouldn't and didn't.

I suppose I do read a lot of sci-fi which has an inbuilt distance between oneself and characters, apart from the odd bit of wish fulfillment (which is, arguably, not identification at all), but I still find the idea that you'd expect to identify with the fictional character you are reading about a tough one to get my head round. (Some of my favourite sci fi is by Olaf Stapledon, who didnt always feel the need to actually have any charcters.) Maybe I don't quite understand the whole identification process. Anyone care to expand on it?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:51 / 07.11.05
Thought: second person narration. How does that effect your reading of differently-gendered characters? I've been in writinig workshops where it becomes a hot topic because a lot of the men in the class had difficulty relating to female protagonists when it was in the "You" perspective. I find that odd, but then I've never had a problem with it. Second person is one of my favourite perspectives. Thinking about this in relation to Lorrie Moore's "Self-Help" book, all the stories in second person.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
10:41 / 08.11.05
Its true that I can't think of any female characters I'd identify with, but then I am a bloke. On the other hand, I can't think of any male characters I identify with either.

You mentioned Bridget Jones earlier -part of my problem is that I feel (or, am made to feel by the writing) as though I'm supposed to identify with this character, whereas in fact I don't. I think the problem might more what you said, of the book assum[ing] that one finds the portrayals intuitive in some way, and that perhaps this happens more with female than male characters. I've been thinking about characters I really do relate to, and there are some but I'll try to think about why that is and come back.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
14:41 / 08.11.05
how to relate to a character:

when reading a book, and descriptions of the thoughts/feelings/actions of a character, you find yourself putting yourself in the character's situation, facing their conflicts, considering their options, etc...

also, discovering the character (if he/she/it's well-written), and each episode fills them out - it may be you don't sympathise, but if there's something familiar, if the character evokes something in your imagination/memory, then you're relating to him/her/it.

no?

can you relate to Pipi Longstockings?

ta
tenix
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:05 / 08.11.05
I can relate to Pippi Longstocking- or at least I could when I last read one of Astrid Lindgren's stories- I think it's to do with the way a character feels emotion. A lot of books don't offer the room for emotional intuition, Bridget Jones, if you're going to like it, has to be perceived as a comic novel about a woman who's a complete wreck, if you like it as an emotionally intuitive novel than you have to identify with it. Pippi Longstocking feels general emotions, she feels happy, naughty, lonely, angry but she doesn't feel lonely because she has no man, she feels lonely because she is quite alone.

I think Vincennes is probably right that more female characters are assumed in a certain way (sorry bad phrasing) and that worries me because it makes me think that the general perception of women is still very prescribed and limited.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:23 / 08.11.05
when reading a book, and descriptions of the thoughts/feelings/actions of a character, you find yourself putting yourself in the character's situation, facing their conflicts, considering their options, etc...

Well, yes, but also no. For instance, I recently read the Richard Morgan sci fi novels. This is set in a far future where technology is a bit like magic and the main character is a supremely confident individual, who is physically and mentally capable of tackling extreme situations without breaking a sweat. He is smart, sexy, full of savoire faire and has a tendency to engage in psychotic acts of violence.

Now I certainly put myself in the character's situations and imagine his feelings when I read the book. But apart from being male, he and I have no similarities whatsoever. I don't *identify* with him in the slightest. I suppose I was and am making a distinction here between relating to and identifying with. I expect to relate to all sorts of characters, and while this has something to do with me - a certain empathic response, I suppose - it isn't really on the level of any kind of identification and more a feature of the author's skill at sparking off my imagination. As such, I wouldn't expect to only be relating to male characters, for instance.
 
  
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