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Time Magazine's OTHER "Best" List - Top Ten Graphic Novels

 
  

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Mark Parsons
21:42 / 25.10.05
Time’s OTHER list

Yes, I know, it's all subjective, BUT:

So what's missing?
What doesn't belong on the list?
Is a list that mixes Batman and Watchmen with David Boring useless or what?
 
 
Eskay Doss
22:09 / 25.10.05
FLEX MENTALLO, should it ever be collected, will be somewhere in the top 3 of future lists.

Personally, I never Much cared for BATMAN:TDKR. WATCMEN is indeed great, but not as good as FROM HELL or PROMETHEA.

THE INVISIBLES: Say you want a Revolution, SANDMAN: Fables & Reflectionss, SIN CITY: The Hard Goodbye and Scott McCloud's UNDERSTANDING COMICS all deserve a place too.

What I'd like to see next are lists for the top 10 best GN's from Europe and the top 10 Manga...
 
 
TheCow
22:15 / 25.10.05
I can't really take a top 10 graphic novel list that doesn't include From Hell very seriously.

Then again, I have a problem taking top 10 lists seriously in general.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
22:43 / 25.10.05
Yeah for rizz. Everyone's going to have their own little quibbles. I and my hummingbird attention span tends to focus on things I've recently been enamored with. Where's Yotsuba&! Vol. 1? (Read it and try to refute. I'd say it's a decent dare.)

Also, Church & State, Akira, New X-Men. When Bendis and Mals wrap up Daredevil, I'd throw that on there.

I don't know. Everyone's top ten list is usually just their ten favorite books so, who knows. Hell, I'd even throw The 49ers on there, because I'm currently in love with it.

So who the eff knows.
 
 
sleazenation
22:45 / 25.10.05
I was surprized that Blankets featured so highly, but then this is a US-based list and the religious mid-western setting is probably less distancing on that side of the pond than it is over here.

I'm not so surprized that From Hell doesn't feature. For most people, particularly the mainstream media, Watchmen will always be Alan Moore's most prominent work, and on a list like this each author gets in with their most prominent work.

I was pleasently surprized to see Palomar get a mention above Locas, and Berlin to feature. More people should be reading Berlin and Jason Lutes stuff in general.

For a larger and more fully reasoned list of a top 30 graphic novels (and a whole lot more) spread over a range of genres, you couls all do a lot worse than check out Paul Gravett's new book Graphic Novels: stories to change your life...
 
 
sleazenation
22:48 / 25.10.05
I'd also point out that all the books in list comprise of complete stories, as opposed to collections of serial narratives - as such, most superhero comics are not going to feature...
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
01:25 / 26.10.05
I don't see "Maus", which surprises me, I think that "Ed The Happy Clown" was inferior to "The Playboy", "It's a goiod life if you don't weaken" should be on the list, there was no Eisner (I'd go with "The Dreamer"), and listed all as one book, Cerebus is superior to most of the other work there even if Sim has gone off his rocker.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
01:44 / 26.10.05
Yeah, the lack of FROM HELL is very worrying.

I am so damn tired of hearing people praise Dark Knight Returns. What a mess.

I'd humbly suggest two Alex Ross works: U.S. and KINGDOM COME.

And I'm partial to V FOR VENDETTA, but I can how that's asking for too much Moore.
 
 
Tim Tempest
02:36 / 26.10.05
I've never even heard of "Ed The Happy Clown". I might have to check that one out.

And I agree with Benjamin Richardson about how lists are put together...I'd probably put "The Ultimates" hardcover on my list, along with Invisibles, Flex Mentallo, New X-Men, and...I honestly don't think that any comic makes me laugh AND think at the same time in the way that Transmetropolitan seems to consistently do.

And, honestly, since I haven't read it, does Miller's DKR deserve to be on the list? I don't usually hear any gray area on it. It seems like people either love it or hate it.
 
 
Mark Parsons
03:16 / 26.10.05
ED the happy Clown is f*cking BRILLIANT but I'd never place it on a top ten/classic/must read list.

I'd second (actually third or fourth) Vendetta and/or From Hell. And as much as a love PROMETHEA (fave ever with Krazy Kat, Little Nemo and Spirit) it's a serial work and "not" a graphic novel per se.

I only ever read the first two or three Berlin issues: any comments from lithers about the collected editions?

For CA-based Lithers (or those visiting in the next two months), here is a link to UCLA's "Masters of Comics" exhibit:

Masters of Comics
 
 
Mark Parsons
03:19 / 26.10.05
Apologies to the global comics community. That's Masters of AMERICAN Comics. Still, some good stuff here, eh?

I'm off to bed to dream of indictments and onanistic Neocon political auto-implosions.

Fingers crossed...
 
 
sleazenation
07:53 / 26.10.05
I think it says something about the mentality of some comics fans that they seriously seem to think that a single comic creator who they are familiar with should be even more represented in the top ten than they already are at the expense of other books.

I like Alan Moore's work as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't suggest that his work is so far ahead of his contemporaries that his work alone should comprise the largest chunk of any top ten...
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
08:13 / 26.10.05
I've only ever read two of the top ten (DKR and Watchmen). Am I deprived?
In terms of what I'd have put in the top 10...probably some Kabuki...GM should be there somewhere, but I'd find it very difficult to pick out a single book; likewise with the likes of Gaiman or Ellis.
 
 
sleazenation
12:21 / 26.10.05
Yes, Cloud, I think you probably are 'deprived', but it is your own loss. If you only ever watch science fiction movies, you are unlikely to appreciate, or miss, movies of other types and genres. Supermen are not the only fruit...
 
 
Sniv
12:54 / 26.10.05
I too have only read DKR and the Watchmen, and yes, I know I'm deprived, but my local comics shop is small and has a very strong spandex-bias, and so some of these books I've never heard of.

The list looked to me like the writer had been told not to include too many capes. I mean, we're talking "best ever" comics?

Personally, I think Batman: Year One should have made the list rather than DKR (that's kind of like in music where people always push Nirvana's Nevermind or the Beatles Sgt Pepper instead of In Utero or Revolver).

And no Roman Dirge or Jhonen Vasquez? What? And no Invisibles? Come on! It's only the best bloody comic ever, and people need to read it!

The list reads (to me) like 'Comics for people that don't read comics' or don't want to be embarrased by on the bus (like I do when I read Spidey on the way to work. Get some odd looks).
 
 
sleazenation
13:29 / 26.10.05
Dude - leave the comic shop and go to the book shop. Random House (big mainstream publisher available in any bookshop) have been publishing, or republishing, some of the best graphic novels out there under their Pantheon imprint (or their jonathan Cape imprint in the UK). Check out their catalogue.
 
 
sleazenation
13:37 / 26.10.05
The list looked to me like the writer had been told not to include too many capes. I mean, we're talking "best ever" comics?"

It looked to me that it was attempting to offer the best comics out there and a broad range of them. YMMV of course, but I tend to be of the opinion that if you think either A) the best comics being publisher come out of Marvel or DC or B)The best comics feature superheroes, you really need to read more widely.

Outside of that, I've gotta say that I find Year One far more satisfying than DKR. I tend to put that down to Miller either being under a firmer editorial leash or not giving into his own excesses.
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
14:12 / 26.10.05
sleaze - no need to be so supercilious.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:20 / 26.10.05
I thought it was perfectly dignified reply to a foolish proposition.
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
14:35 / 26.10.05
Good for you, Petey.
 
 
sleazenation
14:43 / 26.10.05
I was aiming more for exasperation than superciliousness. Exasperation that many people who would profess an interest in comics appear to be so ignorant and uninterested in exploring the rich history and variety of the form, while acknowledging that comic readers can, and quite possibly will, continue to read the comics from the same narrow range of publishers in a still too narrow array of genre.

I realise that this might not be the most constructive approach, but like I say, I AM exasperated people.
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
14:51 / 26.10.05
Fair enough, sleaze. I accept your point, but just didn't like the way you put it.
 
 
Aertho
14:51 / 26.10.05
Exasperated.

Noted.

So, of those ten, which is the best for supercomic readers to engage and expand their repetoire? Watchmen Blotchmen.
 
 
DavidXBrunt
15:19 / 26.10.05
Bone is wonderfully readable and just the most fun thing I've read all year. I'd say it's pretty accesable for a comics reader who only reads superhero books. It's stealth literature in the sense that it touches on important matters but hides them behind lashings of humour, action, adventure, romance, and mystery. It's glorious stuff really.

I'm sure that there are a lot more worthy and weighty books on the list but few that will keep you turning the pages long after you should have sensibly turned the light out and gone to sleep.
 
 
sleazenation
15:20 / 26.10.05
Guilty as charged. Sorry people.

As for which of the ten I'd recommend to start with I'd probably have to go with Berlin, a comic that have consistantly championed here.

Set in Berlin between the wars, Berlin is a historical fiction that follows the lives and loves of a diverse group of characters as they struggle along int the growing shadow of Nazism. Aside from a compelling story, what really marks Berlin out is the detailed cartooning of its author, Jason Lutes. You can see the amount of research he has don on the period in every panel, but more than this, he also has an incredible grasp of design language. Recurring themes are reinforced by repeated layouts and images. this is off the top of my head you understand - I could go into greater depth here if I had the comics to hand... But, yes, the more you look the more you will see...

That would be the one I'd recommend if I had to pick one, but if you are looking for a guidebook to the rich range and variety of graphic novels, I'd recommend you flick through Paul Gravett's new book Gaphic Novels: stories to change your life.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:32 / 26.10.05
I tend to be of the opinion that if you think either A) the best comics being publisher come out of Marvel or DC or B)The best comics feature superheroes, you really need to read more widely.

I don't really agree. If someone told me they think the best films ever made are Warners gangster movies, or that the best films feature cowboys, that wouldn't seem so absurd. It is all about personal favourites, after all. If they weren't aware that any other types of film existed, that's different, but declaring a personal preference isn't ignorant.

What strikes me about this list is, indeed, that I'm surprised I haven't read more of them, but also their dates of publication.

Some are reprints, but DKR and Watchmen seem to be the oldest title by far on there. The list runs 2000, 2003, 2004, 2002, 1986, 2000, 1989, 2000, 2003, 1986.

That's a strange bunching.

The definition of "graphic novel" is also open to question I think. Palomar is an "uber" graphic novel. I assume the stories were originally published monthly. DKR and Watchmen were monthly DC titles in the normal format, before they were collected. I believe Jimmy Corrigan appeared in installments, though I could be wrong.

Under that definition, you're calling something a graphic novel if it's a collection of episodes that originally appeared in a very different serial form and may not have been planned as a single volume. So it's a graphic novel because it's collected? That's not the same thing as a narrative that was always planned as a single-volume story, all in one go; the way we use "novel" to apply to any other kind of novel. I haven't read Palomar but I will have read many of the stories in it, and I don't believe they connect into one grand, overarching story as a conventional novel would. They share characters and settings and continuity, but they're no more a "novel" when you put them in a collection than a 90 minute soap opera omnibus is a "film".

So, debatable whether collections of collections, or even collections of single issues, should constitute a graphic novel.

However, if that is the definition, then surely you could include collections of Little Nemo, Krazy Kat, The Spirit? How about a bit of historical context, if these are the 10 greatest comic "novels" of ALL TIME? I'm just naming those three possibles off the top of my head, but surely the books they include on the list depend on decades of work by pioneers like Eisner who actually evolved the language through which comic book stories are told?


Finally, I think the comic book form is dominated by one genre, superheroes, and so superheroes do need to be recognised in any top ten. Whether you want to stereotype these comics as "spandex" or not, some of the greatest writers in the industry have worked within that genre, and presumably wouldn't have developed their voice and talents without it. If you rate From Hell, for instance, I think you have to give some credit to Moore's years on 2000AD and Swamp Thing, where he experimented and improved as an author. I don't mean those specific titles should be included on a top ten, but I do believe a list of great comic books that excluded superheroes would be a distortion of the medium's heritage.
 
 
Aertho
15:33 / 26.10.05
Guilty as charged. Sorry people.

Sleaze is right though. NXM was insane by the time we got to HCT, and 7S would've taken over if we hadn't consolidated into title threads. They've tried reading groups for non super comics, but they've not hit big. Efforts should be made to make things better, and this list helps illuminate that.

I'm not familair with Bone. Have read Watchmen, not DKR, and love Jimmy Corrigan's saaaaaaaadness.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:47 / 26.10.05
Efforts should be made to make things better, and this list helps illuminate that.

Are you suggesting that the list was meant to direct people toward reading comics they might not have tried? I don't think that's what a top ten is about, though it's a worthy project. A top ten isn't meant to educate people beyond the boundaries of the familiar -- it's meant to record the "best", though of course that's problematic. If the "best" is judged to be Citizen Kane in film and Lord of the Rings in literature, that might be boring but it's not the listmaker's job to say, look let's stick William Boyd and Dziga Vertov up the top, to broaden people's horizons.

Also, while I agree as above that only having awareness of one genre (in film, comics or lit) does seem limiting, what if you've read comic books outside the superhero genre but still think that genre's the "best", your favourite, your preference, the genre that you most enjoy and find most interesting, the type of comic that you think is best-written?

Your post here implies that "better" means "broader". It might be possible to argue that the best comic books actually are superhero comics; that they should make up the entire top ten. I can entirely understand an exasperation with people who don't look outside that genre, but I don't think a non-superhero-genre comic is any guarantee of superior quality.
 
 
Aertho
16:13 / 26.10.05
Argue schmargue. The comic media form is what this forum is about. I say widen the discourse. You say narrow it?
 
 
sleazenation
16:18 / 26.10.05
For the record, I've real all or parts of 8 out of the top ten, so I'm guessing that most people will find something that they haven't yet tried on the list...

Kovacs - you probably won't be surprized to learn i disagree with you on certain points...

If someone told me they think the best films ever made are Warners gangster movies, or that the best films feature cowboys, that wouldn't seem so absurd. It would if the reader hadn't actually watched much outside of Warner gangster movies. While I think I have acknowledged that personal preference does play a role - I think it is still fair to say that many people who would think of themselves as comic fans appear to have very limited reading of the comics outside of the comics published by Marvel and DC and superhero comics. This is something that a number of responses to this thread would seem to bear out to some extent...

On 'dating' graphic novels - there are a number of different factors you have to take into account when you attempt to date a graphic novel. Firstly, You got to be aware that the graphic novel as a form is, at most less than thirty years old, with most works derriving from the last 15 years. Also, as Kovacs points out, many graphic novels, like many novels in the 19th century, have been serialized in some form before being collected. - Jimmy Corrigan was actually serialized a page or so at a time as a newspaper strip and was collected in various issues of Acme Novelty Library before its eventual unification as a single volume...

Looking at the dates given in the article, the writer/editor has given only the date that the comic was first collected, not necessarily when it was first published in serialized form...

As for the definition of a grphic novel... its a tired old chestnut, and on that I think of as being something of a diversion from talking about comics and graphic Novels themselves. I tend to have a fair amount of sympathy for the position that graphic novels should have an element of completeness to them, but the definition of what this completeness is, is probably a fuzzy as the definition of the graphic novel...

I do believe a list of great comic books that excluded superheroes would be a distortion of the medium's heritage.

Well there *are* two superhero comics on the list... as for 'distorting the medium's heritage' - Dude! Where are the knockabout, humour comics on the list - you know, as in the kind of comics that gave comics their name. The closest things you've got to that on the list is Bone, an adventure comic with humourous interludes...
 
 
sleazenation
16:21 / 26.10.05
but I don't think a non-superhero-genre comic is any guarantee of superior quality.

But by the very same token, not all superhero comics are all that super.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
16:31 / 26.10.05

It would if the reader hadn't actually watched much outside of Warner gangster movies.

Like I said:

If they weren't aware that any other types of film existed, that's different,

I think it'd be fair if they'd mostly watched one kind of movie, and dipped into other genres and movements enough to have a fairly good idea that they still preferred their first, familiar choice.

Then again, I admit that if someone tried to tell me John Grisham novels are the best ever written, I would be pretty irritated and not accept that as a serious argument unless they persuaded me they'd read a whole lot more than the one author.


I think it is still fair to say that many people who would think of themselves as comic fans appear to have very limited reading of the comics outside of the comics published by Marvel and DC and superhero comics. This is something that a number of responses to this thread would seem to bear out to some extent...

Yes, and I can see why someone with a broader reading would want to challenge that, but I still think comics as a medium are uniquely dominated by one genre. In that, they don't compare to films, books or music.

If most comics are, and have been since around 1930, superhero titles, then having read mostly superhero titles is not actually going to give you a warped misrepresentation of the comic book form in the 20th and 21st centuries to date.


Well there *are* two superhero comics on the list... as for 'distorting the medium's heritage' - Dude! Where are the knockabout, humour comics on the list - you know, as in the kind of comics that gave comics their name. The closest things you've got to that on the list is Bone, an adventure comic with humourous interludes...

That's also true, though I suppose "comic books" haven't meant "comedy" for some time. I thought that the humour tradition was mostly British, and that American comics were mainly superhero-war-adventure during the peak period of slapstick, knockabout British titles.

Isn't it the case that most comedy-genre comics are now cartoons or comic strips, not comic books? It would be a big stretch to include something from the Sunday funnies as a graphic novel, wouldn't it?

-----------
Argue schmargue. The comic media form is what this forum is about. I say widen the discourse. You say narrow it?

I say let's discuss the comic media form, you say argue schmargue.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
16:35 / 26.10.05
but I don't think a non-superhero-genre comic is any guarantee of superior quality.

But by the very same token, not all superhero comics are all that super.


I entirely agree, but I think there's sometimes a tendency to dismiss superhero comics just because of their genre (oh, they're all about skintight ridiculous outfits and teenage-fantasy musclemen) and give comics outside that genre more dignity and respect because they deal with stuff closer to "real life".

However, maybe there's a counter-tendency to dismiss that latter kind of comic boring and worthy, and to only give superhero comics any time and effort -- and I can see that's the kind of reaction you're arguing against. To be honest I can understand your point of view and I might even take it up myself in other circumstances. I'm playing devil's advocate to some extent.
 
 
This Sunday
16:37 / 26.10.05
'Ed the Happy Clown' is cool because it is unnecessary. Putting on a list like this can only do it harm.
The rest... um, no. As well, no.
There's no 'The Enigma' on this list. There's no 'From - the one Alan Moore work I really really dig - Hell' or Invisibles stuff. That sucks.
'My Life in Blue' is better than several of the works listed, which in and of itself should say something of the 'quality' and bestyness the possses.
I repeat, because it bears repeating: There's no 'The Enigma' on this list. No Morrison, Millidge, Milligan, or Ellis at all... um... nothing from Japan AT ALL, or in fact, much if any of the world outside the States. You can't list the Top Ten Graphic Novels and not have even one from the place where more comics come from than anywhere else in the world, without seeming a wee bit skewed, yeah?
And, no Enigma.
 
 
sleazenation
17:00 / 26.10.05
I thought that the humour tradition was mostly British, and that American comics were mainly superhero-war-adventure during the peak period of slapstick, knockabout British titles.... Isn't it the case that most comedy-genre comics are now cartoons or comic strips, not comic books? It would be a big stretch to include something from the Sunday funnies as a graphic novel, wouldn't it?

No. The US tradition of comics descends in a line from newspaper strips. The publication that many people cite as the first US comic is Famous Funnies, a comic that largely reprinted newspaper strips (that, IIRC, was where they got their dimensions from, the funny pages, folded twice). So, newspaper strips are to comics what comics are to graphic novels, part of the same continum and lineage...
 
  

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