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Star Trek Children--Who is Lamer, Wesley Crusher or Jake Sisco?

 
 
POP
19:34 / 25.10.05
I've been sort of quazi lurking for a while, but I'm hopeing some barbalithians can help settle a long debate, who is more lame, Westley Crusher from Star Trek: The Next Generation, or Jake Sisco from Deep Space Nine.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:00 / 25.10.05
They are both a disgrace.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
20:02 / 25.10.05
Must be something wrong with your tv reception, POP. Both the Boy Crusher and Jake Sisko have full use of all their limbs. There are oddly few Star Trek characters with physical disabilities in fact. Captain Christopher Pike was wheelchair-bound, latterly. Worf broke his back and considered suicide but experimental 24th century surgery saved him. Maybe there are other examples. Lameness, not a lot, in the ST Universe.
 
 
lekvar
20:07 / 25.10.05
Xoc, I'm pretty sure that POP means lame from the neck up.
 
 
matthew.
21:25 / 25.10.05
Jake Sisco. At least Wesley has a good last name that isn't cooking spray or lard.
 
 
Tim Tempest
21:36 / 25.10.05
I think Wes is lamer...but the guy who designed the Borg ships definitely has less credit in my book.

"Hey guys, let's built a fleet of cubes! Flying cubes!"

"Errr.....Your the boss, Stan..."
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:50 / 25.10.05
Well in that case, what about that, you know, 'make-it-so'
guy who was in Star Trek; Next Generation. The 'Oh god mother I am so sorry that I ended up appearing in this, oh god how I wish I'd done Hamlet at the RSC,' etc.

He'd have had a hard time in the ice fields of Hotha, that guy, without a hat.

Sooner or later, I think that some of you 'Ski-Fi' fans are going to have to face up to the role that some of your more obsessive projections play in the utter ruination you have inflicted in the lives of the people you've targeted, that's all.

Why can't you leave them alone?
 
 
Char Aina
00:19 / 26.10.05
uh... but he diddo hamlet as the RSC, didnt he?
 
 
lekvar
00:24 / 26.10.05
your more obsessive projections play in the utter ruination you have inflicted in the lives of the people you've targeted
Yeah! Isn't it great?
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
03:03 / 26.10.05
Xoc, don't forget Doc Bashir's low-gravity girlfriend from that episode of DS-9.
 
 
Evil Scientist
06:39 / 26.10.05
'Ski-Fi'

Surely this is the wrong area to discuss this type of fiction? Games and Sports is down a bit.

"...as I sped down hill I twisted and turned like a man possessed, trying to avoid those flags. A spray of snow gusted ahead of me, and through it I saw...the terrible cylopean madness of...THE BLACK RUN!"

For my money though, Jake Sisco had a much more interesting story arc than Crusher. Well...he had a story arc, which makes a bit of a difference.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
08:09 / 26.10.05
Xoc, I'm pretty sure that POP means lame from the neck up.

Yes, lekvar. That much I figured out. He's a newbie though and I didn't want him to get the impression that I approved of his conflation of meanings of "lame". It's a common and stupid connotation that because someone cannot walk in a conventional way, they must have other intellectual and social deficits.
 
 
Seth
08:36 / 26.10.05
Jake Sisko is cooler by far. He killed himself to save his maniac Dad, pulled a Dabo girl when he was about fourteen, told Starfleet to fuck off so he could be a writer and the older version of him was played by Tony Todd. Alarmingly, Cirroc Lofton also has a hip hop album that may already be out.

Wesley Crusher was a wanker. I mean, I have a soft spot for Wil Wheaton, but come on...
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:30 / 26.10.05
and the older version of him was played by Tony Todd

I'd forgotten that! He's won, there is no contest. The Todd is my God.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
11:18 / 26.10.05
Careful how many times that name is spoken in quick succession in this thread.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:27 / 26.10.05
Sooner or later, I think that some of you 'Ski-Fi' fans are going to have to face up to the role that some of your more obsessive projections play in the utter ruination you have inflicted in the lives of the people you've targeted, that's all.

By the way, you do realise that this thread is talking about the characters and not the actors? There's a subtle distinction between the two.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:32 / 26.10.05
Get one ability to tell when someone's taking the -

ohgodohgodIdiditIpostedonthisthreaduncleanunclean
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:45 / 26.10.05
(chanting) One of us! One of us!

Hey if Alex's Grandma's kidding then all is well. It can be hard to tell in this text-based medium that we inhabit.

So, Petey, now you're irreversibly contaminated. Who was your favourite, and why? You strike me as a Sisco man myself, deeper characterisation and all that.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:58 / 26.10.05
Yes. Deep Space 9 is the only watchable show of the bunch (apart from the original series, but that's a whole other beast really). Vast swathes of The Next Generation and every single episode of those other two shows were an exercise in answering the question "Quite how simultaneously bland and irritating can we make every member an ensemble cast?"
 
 
Ganesh
12:08 / 26.10.05
This thread might be usefully expanded into Seth's Redeeming Star Trek discussion...
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:17 / 26.10.05
Perhaps, if people are interested, I could start a thread with a bit of a broader scope. Something along the lines of comparing and contrasting the depth, similarities, and differences of characters in sci-fi genre tv shows?

Could end with just me furiously geeking myself, but might be a little more worthwhile.
 
 
Sniv
12:37 / 26.10.05
Mr Scientist - Yeah, but sometimes you just wanna say "W3sl3y sucks!!! Jake ru7z0rz!!1! lol!!!" and then have a good sit down, because talking in numbers gives me a headache...

BTW, Wesley does suck, the whiny little brat. Sisko all the way!
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:55 / 26.10.05
Mr Scientist - Yeah, but sometimes you just wanna say "W3sl3y sucks!!! Jake ru7z0rz!!1! lol!!!" and then have a good sit down, because talking in numbers gives me a headache...

Granted. But, as is currently being discussed over in Policy, perhaps Barbelith should be about more than just saying something rules. Perhaps, to be thread-worthy outside of Converstion, we need to examine why something sucks or rules.

Just a thought.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:11 / 26.10.05
Is it possible that the Wesley Crusher character is less identifiable to people than Jake? He's the superintelligent kid with the power cosmic. Jake on the other hand, although certainly smart and imaginative, is more like a regular person. His character grows and changes throughout the seasons of DS9.
 
 
invisible_al
18:59 / 26.10.05
I think Wesley was doomed as a character because of his position as Gene Roddenbery's fantasy self. Nowt Will Wheaton could do about that, despite his best efforts the character was compromised as a 'Mary Sue' (that the right term?) from day one.

Jake on the other hand, I don't have any abiding memories of that character but I did miss the last 2-3 seasons of DS9 so probably most of his arc after stopped being a annoying teenager.
 
 
fluid_state
00:48 / 27.10.05
and the older version of him was played by Tony Todd.

Give it up for tha muthasomethin' Candyman!

Wasn't there a TNG ep with a grown up Wesley?
 
 
Seth
01:39 / 27.10.05
To listen to Wil Wheaton, Wesley was doomed because the TNG writers did not know what to do with the character, in that they didn't understand how to write for a teenager. He did the best he could with horrendous material and direction.

Any teenager on the Enterprise D was pretty fucked from the start really. Given that his mother was a useless non-character appendage, outflanked by Pulaski at every turn, played by one of the worst actors I've ever encountered, poor Wesley never had a hope in hell.

Cirroc Lofton on the other hand had an extremely well portrayed and tender on screen father/son relationship with Avery Brooks, who is God. Rewatch the episodes and notice how physical their affection is, how many times Ben kisses Jake, hugs him, holds his face. It's well known how Brooks took Lofton under his wing and made him a part of his family off-screen, so everything you see between them on the show is pretty much them as they are.

This pays dividends in episodes like Emissary, Explorers, The Visitor, Rapture or The Reckoning. Or even pulp like Shattered Mirror or the Coen Brothers-style farce of In the Cards. You're seeing something that's more than acting on screen, which is a technique Brooks uses to amazing effect... witness his breakdown in Far Beyond the Stars and tell me that he was acting. There's always more going on, always more that he's set up behind the scenes. And let's not forget that it is Lofton's character who controversially says nigger on prime time telly in that episode, grounding a story that deals directly with racism when it could have strayed into typically bland Trek issues territory.

And although much of Jake's character arc is diminished as the show progressed past early Season Six, he is crucial in setting up the recurring theme of the Writer as the Hand of God, which is expanded upon through through Benny Russell and the K'ost Amojan, finally reaching its full realisation as DS9's writers themselves appear in the final episode. The show was about the writers wanting to tell whatever stories they wanted without the constraints of TNG, and through Jake they were able to write this into the text of the series itself.
 
 
Seth
01:42 / 27.10.05
I am not ashamed.
 
 
quixote
02:58 / 27.10.05
The Wesley character was such an irredeemable hodgepodge of adult wish fulfillment, he irritated me before he even opened his mouth to spout the godawful script they gave him. I was quite shocked in later years to discover that Wil Wheaton is not, in fact, a soppy idiot who sleeps with an encyclopedia. I guess he was a better actor than I realized.

They couldn't make Jake Sisco as bad, for heaven's sake. He's black. By Hollywood rules that means he has to be at least partly human.
 
 
This Sunday
03:30 / 27.10.05
The Q-ed to adulthood Wesley had a really punchable face.
Adult Sisco was cool.
Therein lies the difference. Regardless of the actors who played them, yeah, Wes Crusher was doomed by his uncool Mary-Sue-ness. Cool Mary Sues do exist, just not when they're the Great Bird's.
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:14 / 27.10.05
Although, I will say this for Wes. He had his moments. I thought he was pretty good in that episode with the addictive virtual reality games. Out-maneuvering the rest of the super-efficient Enterprise crew.

And he was nowhere near as annoying as Naomi Thornhead from Voyager. Possibly due to being just slightly old enough to dodge "Boxy Syndrome".
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
12:07 / 27.10.05
the SZA is right on the money.

haven't seen all of TNG, or DS9 for that matter, but Jake is da bomb, firstly for escaping the military destiny of applying for the Starfleet - unlike most character's kids.

and man, that episode with his future self Tony Todd trying to rescue Sisko from time-leaping though the decades. it was not only clever, it also put me in tears. father issues, maybe...

or NERD issues.
 
 
matthew.
13:44 / 27.10.05
possible threadrot

Doesn't Mary Sue refer to fanfic? Wasn't Wes a simple author surrogate, not a Mary Sue? My distinction is that TNG is not fanfic, or at least, it wasn't in the very beginning, because it was developed by Gene himself.
 
 
invisible_al
15:15 / 27.10.05
Though it refered to any 'author surrogate' especially one that is obviously wish fulfillment in the way that Wesley was to Gene Roddenbery. Wether it can apply to a text outside fan-fi is a topic for a new thread I suspect.
 
  
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