BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Fan Communities

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Jack Vincennes
11:58 / 20.10.05
Petey Shaftoe said : If you're interested in a discussion about the nature of fandom and fan communities with regard to science fiction television, we should probably start a thread about it.

I'm very interested, and had in fact started a thread about the topic in my head. This opening post won't be very detailed, because I'm not (or don't consider myself to be) a member of a fan community; watching Firefly was the closest I've come to even wanting to be part of such a community, because before that I've not really liked any show enough to want to even talk about it that long.

Do you consider yourself to be a member of a fan community? What do you think makes it a community, and in what kind of activities do you take part as a member of that community? And if you are a fan of a show, but don't consider yourself to (or don't want to) belong to the community built around it, why not?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:58 / 20.10.05
One of the things I find interesting is the way in which genre can dictate response - in other words, the way in which devotees of Six Feet Under and Farscape will not behave in the same way, or perhaps more interestingly, a given devotee of both shows might manifest his or her devotion to each one differently. (I wonder if the internet is eroding that difference away slightly - but that's another tangent.)

I suppose one of the reasons I initiated the whole messy tangent is that I find it a bit disturbing when being a fan (in a looser sense) of a science fiction show is presented as becoming a member of a community/subculture almost automatically - as if you can't become one kind of fan without becoming the other. I suppose it's also true that I find certain aspects of hardcore science fiction television fandom quite alienating, and oddly hermetically-sealed. When I referred to the term 'Browncoats' as "Trekkie-fication", I deliberately mean that rather than 'Trekification' - you get non-Trekkie Star Trek fans, in the sense of people who just enjoy the show, but the Trekkie is probably the most familiar incarnation of the science fiction TV obsessives who even have their own uniform.

I would have liked Firefly to carry on (although part of me thinks that the quality would have been difficult to maintain, and that certain of Whedon's weaknesses might have kicked in had it gone on too long), and was glad the film was made. I would have liked Farscape to get a fifth season, and was glad to have The Peacekeeper Wars. The latter in particular requires some gratitude and credit to be given to the hardcore fan community. Yet I cannot help but cringe when I think about the fact that there are people out there who have adapted the lyrics to 'Hero Of Canton' so that it is about "the man we call Joss" and his struggle to keep his show on the air. (Aside from anything else, isn't this sort of missing the funny and tragic point about 'Jaynestown' and what it has to say about 'heroes'?) Equally, I could not help but cringe at some of the material produced by the 'Scapers' during their hard-fought campaigns (I'm remembering in particular a cutesy cartoon showing Farscape fans, dressed as Farscape characters, marching happily along together outside a TV studio whilst a mean-old studio executive sneered down at them from his office - really twee stuff, even aside from my belief that there's a time and a place for dressing up as characters in something you like, and that's called Halloween.)

Now, I know some people might call this snobbery - but let's assume for the moment that 'sense of cultural alienation' will do. I'm interested in why this happens - what makes some people want to just be fans, and others want to be Browncoats/Scapers?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:09 / 20.10.05
I think it's partly a thing about how much time you feel able to devote to something and how deeply you feel about it, look at the film 'Trekkies' or the Kittens after the death of Tara in BtVS. Since probably the late Eighties the producers of these shows and associated industries have pushed the idea that a fan wants more, mainly so they can sell them more product and take more of their money. But there's shame and embaressment in there too, I think most fans would be aware at some level that they are being played for suckers, which then gets expressed in 'more fannish than thou' behaviour.
 
 
sleazenation
19:04 / 20.10.05
I dunno, I kind of figure that fandom begins with the reader doing anything other than passively consuming a cultural product. It's a continum to be sure, but once you start comunicating your enjoyment or otherwise with other people, you have crossed a rubicon...
 
 
matthew.
04:09 / 21.10.05
I would like to know something:

Do hardcore fans of Star Wars like the prequels?

I don't think this is a simple question. I'm going to give a hypothetical answer to my own question by analyzing the fan community of Star Wars.

There are a few groups within the community:
1)The original, old-school, saw-it-in-the-theatre fans who have memorized every line of the original trilogy and keep it close to their hearts. For them, Star Wars was the ultimate personification of their boyhood dreams and wishes. Star Wars became the consolidation between their inner life and the outer world (being pop culture).
2)The original, old-school, saw-it-in-theatre-but-didn't-give-a-shit people. This includes my father, who was in his twenties when he saw it. He liked it, but he doesn't need to see it again.
3)My generation, who saw it on VHS first, the untouched trilogy and loved it to death. This is the same category as number 1, but the only difference is the VHS part.
4)The DVD generation, starting in 1997. (I understand the anachronism here, but bear with me). The Special Edition came out in 1997 and this is the trilogy that many children watched for the first time. This is the altered, deviated thing that many people are familiar with. In fact, and this is crucial, for some fans (the younger ones), this is the only way they've seen Star Wars.

1)old school love
2)old school apathy
3)new school love of old
4)new school love of altered

Using this criteria, I ask people to answer my question.
This is my opinion:
1)old school love - medium to intense hatred of changed vision, of crystallined realization that Lucas can't write dialogue to save his life.
2)old school apathy - they have fun. it doesn't change any of their opinions, save that the original trilogy is superior
3)new school love old - we hate it. we hate it. we hate it. Of all the categories, I have realized that people my age hate the new trilogy with the passion of a thousand supernovas.
4)new school love altered - these are the people who helped make Attack of the Clones the financial success it was. The older fans knew that it was going to be shit, so they waited a little bit to see it. Nope, it was the new school kids who lined up to see the garbage.

Anybody, please feel free to qualify or change my criteria, but somebody, please, answer me:
Who loves the new trilogy? Who hates it? Who doesn't give a shit? Who thinks it's funny that people even discuss this minutae?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:33 / 21.10.05
Do hardcore fans of Star Wars like the prequels?

I don't think this is a simple question. I'm going to give a hypothetical answer to my own question by analyzing the fan community of Star Wars.

There are a few groups within the community:


There's no simple answer to this and there are way more than those few groups within the community -- if indeed there is one SW fan community, when you're talking about people invested in a global film phenomenon across almost thirty years.

I'm afraid it really can't be answered because there's so much variation. Personally, I was an old-skool fan and though I tried hard to like Episode I, which I'd looked forward to (in theory) since 1983, it just didn't live up to what I'd been looking for. I felt Lucas had lost touch with what the mythos should be about, and wasn't making the saga for "me" and people like me anymore.

Attack of the Clones marked a cautious reconciliation as I managed to filter out the stuff that didn't work for me, and found that the stuff I enjoyed just about tipped the balance. Revenge of the Sith was about as good as I could have hoped for, as close to "my" Star Wars as it could have been given that I'd grown up 22 years since Jedi and the Prequel mythos, even in Episode III, inevitably lacked a lot of the elements I'd cherished in the Original Trilogy.

So even with my own case, I couldn't answer that query. Do I like the prequels? With qualifications. I expect that between the loyalist extreme ("It's George's project and we should be grateful for everything he does! Thank GL for another amazing SW film!") and the disillusioned cynics ("Anything after ROTJ just isn't Star Wars. I watched TPM and gave up on Lucas. Thanks for raping my childhood.") there's a range of people with wavering, ambiguous attitudes like mine.
 
 
Cat Chant
12:47 / 26.10.05
I cannot help but cringe when I think about the fact that there are people out there who have adapted the lyrics to 'Hero Of Canton' so that it is about "the man we call Joss" and his struggle to keep his show on the air. (Aside from anything else, isn't this sort of missing the funny and tragic point about 'Jaynestown' and what it has to say about 'heroes'?) Equally, I could not help but cringe at some of the material produced by the 'Scapers' during their hard-fought campaigns (I'm remembering in particular a cutesy cartoon showing Farscape fans, dressed as Farscape characters, marching happily along together outside a TV studio whilst a mean-old studio executive sneered down at them from his office - really twee stuff, even aside from my belief that there's a time and a place for dressing up as characters in something you like, and that's called Halloween.)

I'm not currently as active in fandom as I'd like to be, but I have made songvids, written slash and Mary-Sue stories, edited zines, done fan art (including a large tapestry version of a Photoshopped Avon and Blake in bed together which took me two years to finish) and dressed as Blake and Travis at conventions, which I attend regularly (one or two a year). Strangely, however, none of those things have meant that I draw twee cartoons or miss the point of Jaynestown. Maybe I'm doing fandom wrong, but it seems to me not to be a monolithic community of "obsessive Trekkies" from whom we all desperately and spuriously have to distinguish ourselves, by choosing to draw the line somewhere (I don't filk; Flyboy/Petey doesn't like costumes; whatever). The fandoms I participate in are places for intensive and self-reflective debate about the meaning, importance, and strategies for reading of the texts that bring us together. Obviously some fan art is shit, and some fans' readings seem simplistic to other fans. But that's not something that suddenly happens when you cross a boundary from "person who likes Firefly" to "Browncoat". Plenty of non-Browncoats are capable of simplistic and/or twee readings, or of bad art: look at Scott Orson Card.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:10 / 26.10.05
I don't think it's the reading of the material that flyboy has a problem with, in fact the more in-depth a person wearing a Trek uniform gets the more I suspect he would cringe. I'd suggest that the kitsch, twee element is his real problem. The costumes, false ears, claims that you are in fact a Starfleet Captain- it's the let's pretend aspect (which personally is my favourite thing about fandom).
 
 
Cat Chant
13:26 / 26.10.05
But what I'm taking issue with is the idea that fandom makes you twee. Why does it? Why characterize fandom in terms of one piece of bad art? Why not go for, I don't know, Alison Page's The Young Ladies' Home Companion (one of the greatest hard-SF Blake's 7 stories ever written) and claim that the more involved with fandom you are, the more sophisticated and, I don't know, anti-twee (gritty?) your responses to a show become? That's actually a common argument for disciplinarity in academic work - the more immersed in a critical community you are, the sharper and more focussed your arguments supposedly become.

That isn't always the case with fandom, of course (any more than it's always the case with academia). But I don't think that filking or fan art in themselves can be linked with simplistic reading ('missing the point' of Jaynestown, etc).
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:47 / 26.10.05
But what I'm taking issue with is the idea that fandom makes you twee.

I'm not sure I said it does - I've observed tweeness in fandom, but I don't think it's a causal relationship like that. I wouldn't want to suggest that everybody who identifies as a 'Browncoat' would miss the point of 'Jaynestown', and that was really an aside. But I think taking a song that in the series is a joke at the expense of the idea of heroism - Jayne has become a folk hero, despite really being a blundering, selfish theif who only helped people by accident - and then writing new lyrics that play the sentiment straight and valorise someone - is missing the point.

I take the point about depth of immersion. But equally, immersion can be stultifying: shut yourself off from a range of experiences (artistic and lived), and your critical reading even of the things you're shut in with suffer.
 
 
matthew.
15:48 / 26.10.05
So Petey, you believe in the Sacred Fount theory of art? As opposed to the Ivory Tower theory?
 
 
Chiropteran
18:03 / 26.10.05
[rottishness]
Star Wars was the ultimate personification of their boyhood dreams and wishes

"Childhood dreams and wishes," maybe - I've known more than a few hardcore "old school love" female Star Wars fans, including my wife. Popular perception and/or marketing notwithstanding. Sorry, matt, but it was too blatant to let slip by.
[/rottishness]
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:45 / 26.10.05
You'll have to outline those theories for me, matt.
 
 
The Falcon
22:05 / 26.10.05
First usable hit on Google.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:49 / 27.10.05
Fly, you're taking the word 'immersion' to be synonymous with 'cut off', echoing the 'self-ghettoisation' comment you made in another thread. Without getting as utterly snarked as I did in that other thread, I'm interested in why you'd conflate the two. I've never found my experience of fandom anything less than immersive, and have found many different ways in which I've been able to use that experience to relate to matters outside fandom.

To take an example, at a Q&A with Highlander/Stargate's Peter Wingfield at a Stargate con last year, a chance remark about accents in science-fiction TV (Wingfield commenting that he felt it ridiculous that aliens could only speak in cod-Eastern European, RP English or a generic US accent) led to a half-hour discussion between the actor and fans about how accents create character/perception of accent creates perception of character. The content was not dissimilar to a lot of the better Barbelith threads I've read over the years. This is not an isolated occurence.

I think the problem is that you are displaying snobbery. Your examples are about 'things that make you cringe', yet you're trying to discuss 'the cringeworthiness of those things', when in fact the qualifier in that statement is you. You cringed, and it's what made you cringe that you need to be considering. 'Twee' is a moveable feast. A lot of people's tolerance is so high they've never even used the term before.
 
 
matthew.
13:47 / 27.10.05
Lepidopteran: you're right. No big whoop. Just me accidentally gender-stereotyping fantasy/sci fi genres. I also know a few hardcore female Trekkies and Star Wars fans. Shame on me for forgetting those ladies.
 
 
eddie thirteen
02:34 / 28.10.05
I agree that the cringing says at least as much about the cringe-ee as it does about s/he who induces said cringe. I say this as a hardcore cringer. I'm not sure why it makes me so uncomfortable that fans of a show cancelled after two months are still so into it that they've created a subculture, complete with uniform, singalong, etc., but it really, really does. I own the Firefly boxset, have watched all the episodes (once), enjoyed them, saw Serenity (once) and enjoyed it (didn't love it, but I thought it was at least as good as the show)...and have no need to take my relationship with it any further. I don't feel especially inclined to talk about it. I don't get mistyeyed when I recall pivotal emotional moments. I think the theme song is godawful (but might have been saved if they'd decided to make it an instrumental instead). To be honest, I rarely even think about Firefly, and have already forgotten most of what Serenity was about. I'm actually baffled as to why exactly the show is such a phenomenon, if in fact it is (I guess it must be).

But even if I DID like it to the point of mania, I still think something would pull me back from becoming a (God help me) "browncoat." Something called, if not self-respect, then more likely self-consciousness. I'd feel *stupid.* And maybe that's wrong, and reflects how much of the societal stigma of being into science fiction, etc., I've absorbed, but the fact remains. People who are really, seriously, zealously, and without a trace of irony, 100% committed to stuff like this skeeve me out and make me want to run far, far away from them. Is this their problem or mine?
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:43 / 28.10.05
Something called, if not self-respect, then more likely self-consciousness. I'd feel *stupid.* And maybe that's wrong, and reflects how much of the societal stigma of being into science fiction, etc.,

Well, I like to consider myself a hardcore fan of sci-fi in all it's forms. But I wouldn't dress as a character from a tv show unless I was going to a fancy dress party or something. Even I cringe when I remember one of my friends turning up to college wearing a Star Fleet top.

There is something of a social stigma to being a sci-fi fanboy, personally I affect an air of superiority over everyone else and get on with life (it's their hang-up, not mine). But considering the amount of crap that's on telly these days I can fully understand someone getting irritated when a show they actually like and enjoy gets cancelled. Especially if it get's cancelled before the story is completed.

Regarding fans refusing to let a show "die" once it's ended. I accept that some people might get a little too serious about the whole thing, but there isn't anything wrong with wanting to see something you've enjoyed continue in one form or another.

Firefly and Farscape fans refusal to let the shows fade away resulted in a cinematic release of Serenity and the Peacekeeper Wars miniseries. Both of which can be seen as providing a level of "closure" on shows that were finished before their time.

Of course, fansites named after something from the fantasy/sci-fi they enjoy can sometimes be a seed in which something better grows. (Takes step back and looks up at the Barbelith title).
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:29 / 03.11.05
See, and there you go with the 'better'. You do realise that there are a lot of people out there in the real world who might (and who do - my other half, for one) find Barbelith and many of the threads therein odd, disturbingly introverted and self-regarding, twee, and geeky? Not just the stuff about comics or whatever, but the Temple, the Head Shop? The last sentence of your last post?

Again, it's a moveable feast (my new favourite phrase, apparently - I seem to have used it about five times in the last few hours). The only problem that exists is when people like you try to justify your disdain/contempt for denizens of fandom in an attempt not to come across as narrow-minded or snide ("it's not me, it's them").

Trust me - it's you. And look, everyone looks down on someone - that's how status works in relationships, whatever kind of relationships they might be. There's just no sense in being a hypocrite about it, that's all.
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:52 / 03.11.05
Again, it's a moveable feast (my new favourite phrase, apparently - I seem to have used it about five times in the last few hours). The only problem that exists is when people like you try to justify your disdain/contempt for denizens of fandom in an attempt not to come across as narrow-minded or snide ("it's not me, it's them").

Umm, did you actually read my post Jack? Just asking. I refer to the start where I say:

Well, I like to consider myself a hardcore fan of sci-fi in all it's forms.

I am a sci-fi geek! I can hardly look down on the people I associate with best with contempt and disdain without doing it to myself.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who think Barbelith is a load of toss. Message boards are seen as pretty geeky. However I was suggesting that Barbelith, which sprang from a fansite focused on subjects surronding The Invisibles comic, has developed into something far more diverse and interesting.

I'm sorry if you've misread my post, but I was defending sci-fi fans NOT condemning them.

If you could explain what's so hypocritical about that I'd be obliged.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:41 / 03.11.05
Whether or not www.barbelith.com is an Invisibles discussion board or a more general discussion board, and whether the one might be said to be better than the other, is what people in the real world get exercised about, Evil Scientist. Keep up, man.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:19 / 03.11.05
More seriously, it's to some extent about the embattled nature of the individual in the face of incomprehension or hostility, isn't it? That is, if you feel like you are about to come under criticism for, for example, really liking Star Trek, you might get a bit defensive if you can immediately be likened to people who, say, dress up in Star Fleet uniforms when you do not - not that that is bad to do so, only that it is an obvious thing for people in the real world (which for our purposes will mean "not interested in genre fiction") to notice and to latch onto. Which is bascically kind of on the "mum, you're embarrassing me!" level, in a way - it's about peer pressure from that real world to fit in, with the threat of being looked down on providing a reason to distance oneself from that level of socially unacceptable fan culture.

Which is not quite what Flyboy was talking about at the beginning of this thread, which was, I think, more about being coopted into a particular mode of interaction with a cultural product - that is, that while the people in the real world (defined as above) might be saying to you "You like Star Trek? What, you like to dress up as Kirk and write erotic furry fanfiction where Kirk is, like, an ocelot, and you're, like, on the bridge of the Enterprise and you totlally do it?", the people in the unreal world might also be saying "Ah-hah! You too like to wear the uniform and write the fanfic!" - now, I'm not all that offended by that personally, but perhaps there is the issue that these are both attempts to coopt and to limit the way in which liking for something can be expresses - one is exile and the other is recruitment, but they both argue that one can only like certain products in a specific way. Which I think brings us back to Bard and browncoats - that "browncoat" exists in a kind of suspension between being a simple word meaning "person who likes Firefiy" (which describes Flyboy) and "person who composes folk songs about Joss Whedon" (which Flyboy feels does not describe him, and which identification actually impairs his enjoyment of the product itself - I may be overreaching here). This sort of ties into something paranoidwriter said a while ago about how as a writer he would be very angry if somebody took his work and used it to justify a political position he disliked, except the other way round - in this case, the text is being used to make assumptions about the reader.


So, to go back to Firefly, I very much like Firefly, have seen Serenity twice, boought the comic book, Mal Mal fishcakes. I have certain things in common with, say, the people who make The Signal, and certain things not in common with them. I'd say that calling me a browncoat is probably not taxonomically accurate, but I probably wouldn't take offence. Thhen again, I have no hip to risk.
 
 
Evil Scientist
06:56 / 04.11.05
Whether or not www.barbelith.com is an Invisibles discussion board or a more general discussion board, and whether the one might be said to be better than the other, is what people in the real world get exercised about, Evil Scientist. Keep up, man.

Well, I'll try. But it's difficult because I'm so painfully slow. The smart drugs are wearing off and my dealer's holding out on me. I'll just have to try an avoid making any kind of value judgement on anything in the future. Nothing is better or worse than anything else (with the exception of Voyager which was rubbish).

I'd say that calling me a browncoat is probably not taxonomically accurate, but I probably wouldn't take offence.

That's the thing though. If someone calls you a browncoat it doesn't automatically follow that you are. If you are a particulary devoted fan of Firefly/Serenity you might personally call yourself a browncoat to identify yourself as a fan of the show, but it's not for someone else to assign that to you.

Maybe fan communities name themselves Browncoats (or Trekkies, or whatever the two remaining fans of Dark Skies call themselves) because they feel like they are more connected to whatever it was in a specific show that drew them to it in the first place. It can be quite empowering to be part of a group.

Perhaps it's elitist too. I'm sure there are fans out there who wouldn't think someone worth the name Trekky simply because they prefer Next Generation to Original Series.

But, as has been pointed out, fans often catch a lot of flack for (what from the outside appears to be) slightly obsessive and geeky behaviour. Perhaps forming a more tangible community under the name of Browncoats or Trekkies or Dark Skynatics is a way of defending ones feelings from that kind of critical view. By saying "Yes, we love (insert show). All of us in this group love (insert show) and we are not ashamed of that fact. We are proud to like the show and we identify with it."

Does that make sense?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:12 / 04.11.05
I think so, yes. In fact, you could probably make some metaphorical comparisons with e.g different ways gay people reacted to being treated and regarded disrespectfully - one common reaction is to assert _similarity_ - we're just like you, we want the same things you want, we like baseball and want to marry and have kids - which sounds like conformity but is actually quite an interesting way of confronting prejudice. So, in this case you could identify that approach with somebody saying "yes. I like Star Trek, but the fact htat I like Star Trek in no way disqualifies me from being your peer - it's just a small idiosyncrasy". Then there's the unapologetic celebration of difference - Radical Faeries, Leather Pride and so on - who could equate to the guys who self-identify as Browncoats, get married with Klingon vows, change their middle names to Tiberius, explain to me why Tiberius is not canonically Kirk's middle name, and paradigmatically wear the Star Fleet uniform. Essentially, as ES says above of his own level of fandom, these guys have decided that if people don't want to accept somebody who dresses in a Star Fleet uniform as socially acceptable, that is an issue that society is going to have to deal with, becuase they are damn well going to wear it. Then there are all sorts of mediations between these positions...
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:40 / 04.11.05
Evil Scientist - regarding your post, you asked for clarification. You identify as a 'hardcore sci-fi fan', but then immediately dissociate yourself from the kind of fan who'd dress up as a character from their favourite show, which definitely shows to me a status reaction against being placed within the same social unit as (for example) a diehard, uniform-wearing Trekker. That's why I used the word hypocrisy - essentially it's like you're stoutly defending the sci-fi fan next to you while your body language screams "get him away from me he smells of milk." But I accept it's probably more a bit of subconscious slippage rather than you actually being Evil...

You also fall into the classic pattern of high culture snobbery by placing Barbelith's current incarnation as 'better' than the Invisibles fansite it started out as - 'better' with no qualification. There are many ways in which the Underground/Barbelith could be considered by some to be 'better' than the Nexus/the Bomb - broader remit, increased functionality, larger member base, whatever - but the fact that you don't clarify why you think it's 'better' tends to lead one to assume that you think it needs no clarification, that it's self-evident, or common sense...
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:08 / 04.11.05
You identify as a 'hardcore sci-fi fan', but then immediately dissociate yourself from the kind of fan who'd dress up as a character from their favourite show,

Fair enough, although all I said was:

Even I cringe when I remember one of my friends turning up to college wearing a Star Fleet top.

It wasn't like I then punched him in the face and never spoke to him again. We're still very good buddies as it happens (although he now lives up North so we don't hang much). But I see how what I wrote could be misinterpreted without further details.

You also fall into the classic pattern of high culture snobbery by placing Barbelith's current incarnation as 'better' than the Invisibles fansite it started out as - 'better' with no qualification. There are many ways in which the Underground/Barbelith could be considered by some to be 'better' than the Nexus/the Bomb - broader remit, increased functionality, larger member base, whatever - but the fact that you don't clarify why you think it's 'better' tends to lead one to assume that you think it needs no clarification, that it's self-evident, or common sense...

Again,I see what you're saying. Although just asking me to clarify why I thought Barbelith was "better" might have been a touch more constructive than having a go at "people like me".

I hope I clarified it slightly in my response where I said, although not in these words, that I feel Barbelith's diversity and range of subjects makes it "better" than a fansite. But obviously it's just my opinion, and with hindsight I could have made that a little clearer.

It wasn't my intent to be snobby, and I apologise if it came across like that. No worries.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:27 / 04.11.05
The topic of this thread is "Fan Communities". I suggest that posts to it concern discussion of fan communities - hey, possibly even discussion of how Internet message boards relate to broader fan communities - rather than what real people in the real world think of Barbelith.

The cringe response strikes me as an interesting one precisely because of the ideas I was kicking around above - one can self-define as a hardcore sci-fi fan, but still realise that some of the ways in which fandom is expressed are likely to have social repercussions when introduced into a non-fan environment - to extend the metaphoir above, there's the idea of "shoving it down people's throats". It might be interesting to compare fandom for bands here, as it is another way in which one can express your immersion in a cultural scene or devotion to cultural objects through dress. A Star Fleet uniform says you like Star Trek. A Ned's Atomic dustbin T-shirt says that you like Ned's Atomic Dustbin (or that you went to college between 1991 and 1995). What's the broader impact of wearing either one, and why might they differ? I'm increasingly wondering if the way fandom behaves and is treated is in some ways a feedback loop.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:31 / 04.11.05
I didn't really have much of a view on fandom, until recently when I decided to buy some Doctor Who DVDs and in doing so came across a site with many fan-written Doctor Who reviews/articles on it.

What I've noticed, in for example this article about why someone didn't like the new series, but also in many others, is that while people will ostensibly clamour for a series to continue, they most often do not want it to continue to change as it naturally would throughout it's continued existence.

The "fan" seems to want to widen the line at a given point without changing the direction- in this particular example, the fan wants the show to remain essentially sexless, but there are countless other examples of factors which have become the target of much pleasant nostalgia, and which the fans clamour to have set in stone, when in reality they never were.

Any desire or interest in changing the series that might be found in the fan community seemingly gets syphoned off into the totally unreasonable and extreme "changes" found in the world of hand-drawn furry porn etc- in other words, fetishised to the point where it can have no effect on the series itself.

This seems to me like the complete opposite of appreciation- a negative, anti-creative attempt at control rather than a positive dialogue with/about the shared interest: if it stays the same, good, even if it's not exciting or interesting- if it changes, then that's bad, even if a new audience/animation (as in life/vitality) is gained via these changes.

It's not just in film or TV fandom that this seems to be the case: I find websites devoted to older editions of roleplaying or miniature games particularly indicative of what I've been talking about. Look at this website about 1st/2nd edition Warhammer 40k- while I respect that the people there want to continue with their hobby in their own way, and by all means that's a reasonable thing to ask, it seems like they're living in the past.

I think it was Haus, or maybe Flyboy, who once talked about "Product Authors", such as Pratchett/Gaiman etc and their reader's lack of a critical language to express their views on the works in a constructive manner. That's what seems to be happening in a lot of fandom- the fans take up the role of whingeing back-seat drivers, childishly asking for the same tape to be played over and over again, and hampering the real drivers (the original producers, directors, or new ones like RTD) who want to actually start-up the engine and go somewhere new.

In answer to the abstract's question, I have to say that so far my impression of fandom is negative, though I'd be happy to be shown the positive elements.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
12:30 / 05.11.05
Scientist - I didn't mean to make you feel hectored, although I appreciate that's how it may have come across. I'm taking your post as being representative of a particular attitude presented by people identifying as sci-fi fans ("I'm a sci-fi fan, but I'm not like them").

The topic of this thread is "Fan Communities". I suggest that posts to it concern discussion of fan communities - hey, possibly even discussion of how Internet message boards relate to broader fan communities - rather than what real people in the real world think of Barbelith.

Well, I understand if you don't want to hear it - but we've been discussing real world reactions to fandom, and Evil Scientist raised a comparison between Barbelith's apparently humble origins as a comics fansite and its present incarnation, so I addressed it. What, you've never had someone in your 'real world' raise an eyebrow about 'your friends on the internet'? It's valid, and we'll discuss it if we feel we need to, but thanks for your input.

I was also kicking around the band fandom comparison, so it's fortuitous you brought it up, Haus. I know my experience of being a Marillion fan has more in common with my experience of sci-fi fandom than, say, my experience of being a Tom Waits fan. You know, annual conventions, fan-initiated petitions and fundraising, multitudinous associated merchandise, a real interaction between fans and product/product drivers energised by the internet, and of course the cringe factor. Sci-fi, and certain other genres/products are seen as somehow not being worth the time and trouble taken to be a hardcore fan. Imagine two websites - one devoted to the minutiae of international trade legislation, the other with the same level of detail on the Stargate franchise. They might be equally boring to someone with no interest in either, but which do you think will elicit the cringe reflex?

My experience of the cringe factor, then, is that it's an extension/amplification of the same response people have to the product itself. Although crossover hits like the original Matrix movie have broadened the audience for sci-fi TV and film (books don't seem to generally develop into fandom in the same way, for some reason), it's still seen as fairly odd and niche market. Genre has no real respect in critical circles either, never has (despite the occasional critical attempt to bridge the gap between low and high culture, usually seen as hopelessly pretentious by fandom and as crass exploitation by critics).

So it's not just that "some of the ways in which fandom is expressed are likely to have social repercussions when introduced into a non-fan environment" (apologies for the full quote, but I don't think I can express that better) - as pointed out above, people who identify as hardcore sci-fi fans exhibit the same sense of dissonance when presented with what they consider to be extreme behaviour. It's what is personally defined as extreme behaviour that defines the line between what is accepted as perfectly normal and what causes the cringe reflex.

How many people - other fanfic writers - would consider slash fiction to be extreme, and how widely accepted is slash as acceptable expression on Barbelith? On the other hand, simply wearing a Red Dwarf T-shirt is considered worthy of the cringe reflex by a lot of people. Fly doesn't like the re-writing of 'Hero Of Canton' to fit Whedon, but what about songvids? Does going to a convention count as cringeworthy? Does the kind of convention matter? My other half and many of my friends love the idea of going to Dreddcon, but think me going to a Highlander con next March is just sad, and not just because they don't like Highlander. As Deva points out, a great deal of the fanfic out there is better than the official product. Trekkers are almost universally derided (to the point of cliche), but a quarter of a century before Firefly's much-touted resurrection these same Trekkers persuaded movie bosses that it was financially viable to bring back another long-cancelled sci-fi show as a major feature, leading us to the franchise that's a part of pop culture today. And yet Browncoats don't generally acknowledge their groundbreaking predecessors in their celebrations - and why? Because Trekkers elicit the cringe reflex, even in sci-fi fandom as a whole.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:11 / 05.11.05
Well, I understand if you don't want to hear it

Interesting phraseology. See below.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:44 / 05.11.05
(Edited to remove one perceivedly aggressive use of the third person)

Or, to put it another way, one of the useful things that fans and fan groups can do to each other is to try to make each other feel ashamed. Jack, it appears to me that you have decided that what Barbelith needs is to be put in its place by being told that people "out there in the real world" might find it twee - precisely what Flyboy, standing in for Barbelith, has said within this thread of certain forms of sci-fi fandom. Essentially, at this point, we're in geek horse-trading - geeks performing acts of status-allocation on each other in order to establish a relational hierarchy. One of the problems of such a hierarchy is that it is essentially personal - as described above, there is no absolute line to draw between, say, going to conventions and writing fan fiction - so it needs to be fortified by confrontational interactions between that hierarchy and apparently inimical worldviews. Barbelith, represented here by Evil Scientist, has represented itself as contrary to a specific hierarchy - it has failed, from the point of view of that hierarchy, to know its place as no better than x or y. Therefore, it must be reminded of its place by its judgement in the courts of the real. A failure to bow the neck to that judgement, or to recognise it as authoritative and relevant, must be repudiated on personal grounds - in the above case, I am represented as somehow reluctant to face the strong truth that people in the real world have an authoritative understanding of my particular fandom (taking Barbelith to be functionally a fan group here) as undeserving of the place in the hierarchy that I (or, in fact, Evil Scientist in this case) wish to claim for it as a result of personal weakness - not wanting to hear it because it is an unpleasant truth rather than, say, a combative assertion of a particular hierarchical structure.

Of course, one problem with this is that there is no court of the real. The people on Barbelith are in the real world. The people who are going to Dreddcon are in the real world. Goths, furries, hydraulic engineers and Molatar are all existing in the real world. So it comes back to the attempt to impose with confidence a hierarchy that is personally acceptable. One can see this within fan communities - one person seeking to demonstrate that they are a better or truer or longer-standing fan than another - and between fan communities, where, say, the Judge Dredd fans or the Firefly fans seek to assert a model in which their fandom can be seen as more meritorious in the court of the real than that of, for example, Star Trek fans. That's about positioning, and possibly also about the assertion of the rights of one's tribe.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:34 / 08.11.05
Jack decides that what Barbelith needs is to be put in its place by being told that people in the real world might find it twee - precisely what Flyboy, standing in for Barbelith, has said within this thread of certain forms of sci-fi fandom.

Not what I intended in the slightest. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth or twisting what I've actually said, or I will request that your post be moderated. I wrote that "I can understand if you don't want to hear it" because I can - no one likes having someone point out that others find their activities twee, and god knows I've had enough good-natured ribbing over my association with Barbelith over the years to appreciate that. If you've got a problem with anything I've said, please be good enough to private message me to discuss it, as we agreed. Had you done so before posting the above, I would have clarified the above very happily for you, and you wouldn't have needed to get so indignant.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:25 / 08.11.05
Actually, I don't have a problem with people thinking that the conversations that go on on Barbelith are "twee" - as you say, everybody has interests that are open to criticism by people who do not share them, which I think was one of the points in my post above. What is interesting here is the decision to bring to bear on this discussion and those within this discussion the presence of these external judgements, and specifically the use of the term "out there in the real world" as a distinctor between those who participate on Barbelith and those who do not. As I said above:

The people on Barbelith are in the real world. The people who are going to Dreddcon are in the real world. Goths, furries, hydraulic engineers and Molatar are all existing in the real world.

The use of "out there in the real world", in my admittedly and avowedly subjective critical viewpoint, also plays on some of the standard attacks brought to bear on almost any subgroup, but especially sci-fi fandom - that it is inimical to reality, internalised, hermetic, unsocialised. These implications are, again in my scv, pretty much inescapable. Possibly your intention in doing so was different, but I think such terminology is highly charged, and to employ it in the pursuit of a project of geekgalitarianism is at best to establish a parity of aggression.

If you'd like me to moderate my post, drop me a line with suggested changes. If you mean you will ask the moderators to change the content of my post, I think we probably need to talk over in the Policy.
 
 
PatrickMM
19:00 / 08.11.05
Bringing it back to the topic, I think the Ned's Atomic Dustbin/starfleet uniform comparison is a bit off, a more appropriate one would be a Star Trek shirt showing Picard or something like that. The reason the uniform would get such an odd reaction from society is that it's from the universe, and that's entirely different than wearing a shirt that's talking about a band or movie you like.

And that's also where the issue with the Browncoats comes in. They're positioning themselves in the same place as the characters in the film, and equating their fight, to make the film successful, with the characters. By crossing that line you stop seeing the work as something to be analyzed and instead view it more as a holy text that you have to defend.

And that would get down to the fanfic/analysis divide. If I like a film, I might write something discussing it and the issues surrounding it, whereas the other type of fan would fight a fanfic further exploring the universe of the work. In hardcore fan communities this is what leads to the outright rejection of new seasons of a show, because they don't fit with the paradigm that you have in your head of what the characters might be. From an analysis point of view, Buffy season six is full of potential, but it does twist the characters in ways that might make them less palatable as fodder for personal fantasy, as expressed through dressing up or writing the fanfic.

I found the Browncoats case really interesting because I saw message board postings with people claiming they were going to see the film a fifth or sixth time, just to support the box office. So, the quest to support the film becomes more important than the film itself, and I think that's what caused a lot of the backlash in the sci-fi fan community. People were sick of being told to see the film for so long before it even came out, and that may have hurt the box office a bit.

And just so I don't sound too intellectual about the whole thing, I did buy a mod target shirt because King Mob wore one in The Invisibles, and I also find it really hard to analyze the original Star Wars trilogy in the way I would most films because it doesn't feel like something someone actually made, it seems like it was always there, and couldn't be any other way. So I can sympathize with the fan view, and even though I usually approach fiction in a different way, that doesn't mean I don't absolutely love Buffy and Angel, shows that just watching will automatically be looked on a bit oddly by the mainstream.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:59 / 09.11.05
Haus: just pointing out that you had no problem using the phrase 'the real world' in relation to non-Barbelith users when you responded to Evil Scientist here. It was your own following post (which didn't reference Barbelith, but rather genre/non-genre) that provided a working definition of the phrase down to those "not interested in genre fiction".

You seem to think we shouldn't bring to bear on this discussion 'external' judgments. Part of the reason for the establishment of the thread was certain external judgments being made by fans of fandom (by people like Petey Shaftoe and Evil Scientist, who self-identify as fans of certain genre fiction but who display signs of dissonance leading to varying degrees of embarrassment or discomfort when faced with what they consider to be extreme expressions of fandom). This being the case, as we're having difficulties with the subject of external and internal here anyway, I don't think your attempt to redraw the distinction really works, especially as you then attempt to throw the girdle of 'the real world' wide to include everybody. It was your definition of 'the real world' that established a useful within/without, external/internal axis with which to discuss the subject. I fail to see why we should abandon it just because you suddenly find it inconvenient, or too 'highly charged'.

Incidentally, I brought up moderation as I don't like having words put in my mouth and having you reconstruct my motivations in the third person in such a manner ("Jack is doing this. Now Jack is doing that."). As long as you can refrain from doing so again, your post can stay as it is.

So, moving on, Patrick: I understand what you mean about fandom seeming to be more about an idea of the show/product than the actual product. I don't agree that it's about viewing the product as sacred text, however - if anything it's the opposite. Some aspects of Buffy fandom, to take your example, do consider seasons six and seven to be practically non-canon (I'm one of them - woman should've stayed dead), but that's a process of analysis in and of itself - it's an agreement between certain fans that they believe the show should've stopped before it actually did, that the subsequent seasons show a failing of the product. It's actually a willingness to rewrite the text - it's generally the product's own drivers (creatives, producers, actors etc) who attempt to keep the text whole and sacred, who don't appreciate unofficial fiction based around the universe or retconning to make certain aspects of the continuity more palatable to their subsection of fandom.

I don't know of any better example than the Highlander franchise, which, as critics have said over and over, was only created with one film in mind. In order to establish the continuing product of the TV show and the subsequent movies, the ending of the first film (with the 'prize' being won and the immortals' fight being effectively finished) has been snipped, the second two films have been expunged from continuity, and the TV show is considered the 'bible' for the franchise. In this case, the product drivers have actually been fans of the original product, who have then taken over creation of further product, and retconned the narrative to suit them - effectively, the continuing Highlander mythos can be considered to be 'official fanfiction'...
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply