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Iris Murdoch (Contains clearly marked spoilers to some of her books)

08:56 / 18.10.05

A few random links to get you started.

Iris Murdoch seems to come up a lot on Barbelith but we don't have a dedicated thread as yet, so here we go.

I've read a few of her novels, not as many as I'd like, but I haven't hit on a dud so far. All the ones I’ve read follow a similar trend of exploring the morality of social/sexual situations of mostly upper/middle class people. I enjoy the philosophical direction of her writing, but if I had to criticise I’d suggest that sometimes the plot can descend into soap at times, with everybody seemingly shagging or wanting to shag everybody else. But on the whole I think she manages to walk a line between an engrossing plot and an examination of the ethical (or lack thereof) motivations of her characters.

Thoughts? Opinions? What are your favourite Iris Murdoch books? Anyone from the “what are you reading” thread who wants to ask a question about her work, ask it here!

11:02 / 18.10.05

Likewise, I've not read a bad book of hers, although I wouldn't actively recommend Under The Net. One of the things I like about her stories is the way they can be read almost as mystery novels -very frequently, one of the characters is a kind of dark force who manipulates all the others, and it's not often immediately clear who it is who's really directing the action behind the plot. I'm thinking particularly of The Sacred And Profane Love Machine when I say that (in the sense that it wasn't immdiately clear to me in that one), but I think it's something that crops up in a lot of her novels.

if I had to criticise I’d suggest that sometimes the plot can descend into soap at times, with everybody seemingly shagging or wanting to shag everybody else

This is something I actively love about her novels -there is this descent, but she's already shown you what troubled people her characters are, and what a struggle they've had to even admit that they want to shag each other, and so when they start actually acting on their desires it's more than usually interesting to read about. I suppose all that means is that I really like soap opera, but only when it's good.

13:27 / 18.10.05

Sometimes I worry that what I like about her work is simply its veneer of philosophy brushed over the top of repression and sex in the suburbs. You're right though, it is done well, and I think what elevates it above other soap opera is that the characters don't just cycle through random plot twists for the sake of it. Their motivations are explored thoroughly, and their development from initial indecision through to making a decision and then gathering the strength to act on it is given the appropriate weight.

Another thing I enjoy is the time period. You can almost feel the spread of pscyhology and therapy through the well-to-do suburbs in the sixties and seventies and you can feel the liberation of the characters as they celebrate their freedom from repression by screwing everything in sight.

14:49 / 18.10.05

A Fairly Honourable Defeat is by far my favorite. I've read a lot of hers more than once, but I was amazed by that book -- such a flimsy, yuppie premise, told with such poison and insight.

She's noted as A.S. Byatt's ultimate hero, and I like that, but I do vastly prefer Murdoch.

10:10 / 20.10.05

Should this thread have a spoliers warning? I want to discuss actual books but I also would like this thread to be available for some of the questions I saw in the "what are you reading" thread, regarding favourite books, best one to start off with, etc.

And on that note, Vincennes - what did you think of The Sacred and Profane Love Machine? I just finished it, and although it was excellent as expected, I felt the ending was a little bit contrived.

SPOILERS!

Making Harriet get shot at an airport in a random crime came across as fairly weak, and was a bit like Murdoch didn't know how to end the book. Or did I miss something? Is it meant to tell us that Blaise would never have chosen without the aid of a deus ex machina? Likewise Blaise being attacked by Harriet's dogs was fairly unbelievable and felt to me a rather heavy-handed attempt to shoehorn in a bit of symbolism.

I also thought Pinn was going to be more directly involved in the ending.

10:57 / 20.10.05

I've just put a spoilers warning mod request in, but if anyone does want to spoil it would be good if you could mark them clearly otherwise this thread is strictly for those who've read her entire works (or, of course, don't mind spoilers)

you can feel the liberation of the characters as they celebrate their freedom from repression by screwing everything in sight

If this is something you like, I really can't recommend The Black Prince highly enough -it's very funny, all exactly along this theme, and with a brilliant twist. One of those books that made me giggle, not just because it was entertaining but because it was just a joy to read.

A Fairly Honourable Defeat is the next one I'm going to read, on recommendation from Xoc in the 'How Do You Read' thread; or rather, not so much a recommendation as a mention that it contained a scene which had stuck in his mind for years. I think that's a particular skill of Iris Murdoch's, creating incredibly vivid 'set pieces' in her novels. The part in The Flight From The Enchanter where (NOT A SPOILER) Annette swings from the chandelier on the last day of school is still incredibly fresh in my mind, far more than anything else I read at 15...

Having said that, whilst I do remember thinking that the ending of The Sacred And Profane Love Machine was a bit contrived that's one that stuck with me less and I read it a while ago; I'll have another look tonight or tomorrow morning and come back here to talk specifics!

11:32 / 20.10.05

I went through a phase of obsessively reading her books in my early 20s - I read everything I could get my hands on. And looking back, it was precisely the aspects you discuss here that fascinated me as a young (ish) woman: these people - grown ups, with, you know, jobs and settled relationships and all that - were getting into all these sexual entanglements and complications. Everyone behaved in ways that were so enormously different to the adults I had known - at least as far as I knew.

I had forgotten why, but that recurring theme of one person as a catalyst who throws a situation into disarray, either by manipulation or by just arriving at the 'right' time, has been something I have consciously noticed and watched for in 'real life' ever since.

22:13 / 04.11.05

Yes Iris Murdoch. Yes, Yes, Yes rarely have I been so enthused by a single book (that being A Severed Head). I felt really connected to the characters on a level which I find one rarely but joyously achieves while reading.
I've raved briefly about it here.
I have The Black Prince and also The Sea, The Sea and can't wait to dive into them when my schedule allows.

In the "What are you reading?" thread Delicatesseract asks me "to whom I would compare her?".
Well I've thought on it and the only author and/or novel that comes to mind specifically would be "The Superpower of Love" by Sophie Hannah which seemed to contained all the entaglements and strong, memorable characters familiar to A Severed Head. As regards writing style possibly not but as regards force of characterisation I'll have to give another emphatic "Yes".
Linky here

23:15 / 04.11.05

The Amazon UK link here which talks about TSOL a little more than the previous link

17:47 / 06.11.05

SPOILERS

Blaise being attacked by Harriet's dogs was fairly unbelievable and felt to me a rather heavy-handed attempt to shoehorn in a bit of symbolism.

I've just re-read the end of it, and yes -it does seem to have the same problem I find with many of Iris Murdoch's books, which is that as soon as symbolism comes into play I see her sitting at her desk saying "I know what this book needs now! a thunderstorm". Then again, it did seem to me at the time I was reading it to indicate more of Monty's immense and nasty power, although that might have said more about my state of mind at the time.

END SPOILERS

That said about the symbolism, I do love how some of the vast, fraught sequences have silly little consequences; after a very detailed description of a woman trying to free a pigeon from the Underground in A Fairly Honourable Defeat she realises that as a result she has lost her handbag and therefore has even worse problems than she did before.

that recurring theme of one person as a catalyst who throws a situation into disarray, either by manipulation or by just arriving at the 'right' time, has been something I have consciously noticed and watched for in 'real life' ever since.

Have you ever met anyone like this? The idea of meeting a real-life Julius King is quite terrifying...