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China in Space

16:58 / 12.10.05

Today there are two Chinese guys orbiting the Earth and for some strange reason that makes me really happy. Maybe it’s cause I’m hoping the competition will motivate NASA to go a bit further (as they supposedly plan to.) Maybe I’m just glad someone is going up even though we aren’t (shuttle problems much?) How plausible do you think China’s plans for space exploration are? Do you think they’ll put a permanent station in orbit in 15 years like that want to? How about actually getting to the moon? How do you think this’ll affect other Asian countries who’re looking to space, like India and Japan? I find this all very exciting.

China launches two 'taikonauts' into orbit

Tryphena Absent

12:07 / 14.10.05

I'd feel happier if it was Russia. I always feel happier about the Russian space program primarily because they had better people working on it to begin with and left the other countries trailing in their wake. China are using a design based on Soyuz.

sdv (non-human)

17:16 / 16.10.05

Personally I will be happier when 'local' space begins to expand beyond the immediate boundaries of the earth's atmosphere. If it happens to be the less imperially minded chinese state (than say the US/Nasa) then that seems an improvement. The current retreat of Nasa from the space station is one of the more convincing pieces of evidence for this. I also will be very happy if the russians recover sufficiently to build spaceships in honor of Tsilovski and Korolev... (msspellimngs unintentional).

Glad they are there... and am looking forward to seeing Indians in space shortly...

21:32 / 19.10.05

There's a famous legend about the early years of the space program, as follows: When the first American astronauts were sent to space, they realizes the spherographic pens (y'know, the normal BIC model we all know and love)didn't work well in Zero-G. To solve the problems, NASA spent thousands, maybe millions of dollar in the project of a special pen who could work perfectly in space. Th eproject was a success.
Meanwhile, the russian had the same problem with their pens. They solved it by writing with PENCILS!!! Not a dime spent.

I think that's a good reason why the Chinese could soon catch up with NASA: they don't have to worry about the lives of their "taikonauts" or with state-of-the-art technology to protect them (no public opinion or coming election to worry about can be useful, albeit a bit cruel), so they can take risks, and do so at a fraction of the cost of US or EU space programs.

I would LOVE to see a new space-race. Mars or bust, man! Sattelite-based weapons are the future of warfare, I believe, like it or not...)

Tryphena Absent

10:10 / 20.10.05

Yeah but dude, space pens are so cool. They can write on butter.

lord henry strikes back

11:28 / 20.10.05

The thing that is often forgotten about the whole 'space pen v pencil' story is that many of the Russian cosmonauts (is that a tautology by the way? As Russian is implicit in cosmo as opposed to astro etc.) later developed rather nasty respiratory illnesses. The reason for this is that, in zero gravity, the tiny, sharp flakes of graphite (or whatever it actually is) that brake off whenever you use a pencil just float around in the air until they are inhaled and do damage. Precisely to avoid this the US spent all that money on the space pen, and it worked.

Ordinarily I'm not a big fan of sticking up for America, and it has done plenty of stupid things. This, however, is not one of them.

12:18 / 20.10.05

Snopes has the low down on the space pen here. Threadrot aside you could argue that it illustrates the ridiculously risk averse nature of NASA.
Obviously safety is important when developing spaceflight technology, but you could ask does NASA go too far in its quest for safety, to the point where it stifles development & makes the space program unnecessarily expensive? Will China (if Megatron's assessment of their willingness to risk lives is true) therefore advance faster than the US?

lord henry strikes back

12:42 / 20.10.05

Sorry, I'm posting from work. I fully intended to get back to the topic and then jusy plain forgot.

I think it's true that regulations are getting in the way of space flight, and it's not just NASA. The ESA are just as bad. Moreover, despite the fact that there has only been one private space flight to date, the US government are already drawing up pages and pages of regulations. If the Wright brothers had faced this level of state interference man's first powered flight would have been in the 1940s.

So yes, I too am hopeful that China, and India not far behind, will start pushing a bit further and being slightly less risk obsessed. I can't see this promting a cold war style space race but the west is still not going to want to be left too far behind. You, me, a couple of beers, on Mars, 2025.

09:52 / 21.10.05

As an aside, i don't think Russian space-travellers and the term cosmonaut are mutually exclusive. Surely Briton Helen Sharman became a cosmonaut when she flew on a soyuz space craft...

10:30 / 21.10.05

iirc Niven, Pournelle & a whole bunch of those Heinlein-influenced, pro-space, vaguely libertarian hard science fiction writers have been pushing for less regulations to encourage private-sector space exploration.
If you're into space advocacy and/or excited about the possibilites of space travel those guys are worth checking out.
I was a big fan of them in my younger days, though not so much now as I've realised libertarianism is mostly an excuse my right-wingers to not give a toss about others. Sorry for the threadrot.

12:03 / 21.10.05

Sattelite-based weapons are the future of warfare, I believe, like it or not...)

I'd like to see this statement unpacked a bit. I really don't see how such weapons have any viable use in warfare.

14:25 / 21.10.05

Satellite based weapons are a bit out there to be a serious threat in the near future. However some ideas mooted include satellite based anti-missile defenses. These could defend a country from a missile strike, which is obviously a huge advantage. However the US has been trying to build them since the 80's and have still failed.
More out there, but possibly more useful is the "Thor" system. I got this from a google search:
"Colloquially called "Rods from God," this weapon would consist of orbiting platforms stocked with tungsten rods perhaps 20 feet long and one foot in diameter that could be satellite-guided to targets anywhere on Earth within minutes. Accurate within about 25 feet, they would strike at speeds upwards of 12,000 feet per second, enough to destroy even hardened bunkers several stories underground. No explosives would be needed. The speed and weight of the rods would lend them all the force they need."
Essentially these would be unstoppable once released and capable of taking out anything from tanks, to battleships, to bunkers. However as I said earlier, I doubt space-weapons will be altering the balance of power any time soon.

14:58 / 21.10.05

Well, there's also GPS and satellite-guided weapons (smart missiles), which are fish of slightly different species.

15:12 / 21.10.05

True, much less science-fictiony, they actually work now & they're hugely useful in modern warfare. To that list I guess you could add satellite surveillance in its various forms.

16:08 / 21.10.05

My question would be how much practicle use 'rods from the gods' would be in modern warfare. Say in Iraq, for example. I don't see where rods from the gods would have been any more effective than conventional weapons and warfare, although arguablely the battles that have been lost to most devastating effect by the coalition forces have been political ones...

17:07 / 21.10.05

Basically, because it's cheaper to make a tungsten tire-iron than it is to make a computer-guided missile. And the tire iron would make a bigger hole.

The problem is getting them in orbit and having a gun up there to carry them. Once you've got that system in place, you've got a big tommy gun in space, basically. Just aim and shoot.

17:17 / 21.10.05

That is to say, with a Rod gun in orbit, you wouldn't necessarily have to worry about troops in Korea or Iran or Afghanistan or wherever else when you invade Iraq. You don't have to deploy subs or aircraft carriers to strategically significant areas. You've already got it covered. You own the high ground.

17:22 / 21.10.05

Well, not just getting it up there and having an effective firing system, but also being able to effectively maintain them in orbit. Given that it is apparently too hazardous to astronauts to maintain the Hubble Space Telescope and that NASA is periodically left without a capability to get into orbit, I'm inclined to think there is a lot more work to do yet...

17:47 / 21.10.05

That is to say, with a Rod gun in orbit, you wouldn't necessarily have to worry about troops in Korea or Iran or Afghanistan or wherever else when you invade Iraq. You don't have to deploy subs or aircraft carriers to strategically significant areas. You've already got it covered. You own the high ground.

I don't think i'd agree here either. Each of the three conflict zones has their own local conditions that make rods from the gods an untenible weapon, in the Korean theatre, for example, the South Korean capital lies so close to the Noth Korean border that it would either be taken out in a rod attack or it would be taken out by a certain counterstrike by conventional forces.

But more, I don't think rods from the gods give the US army much in the terms of useful extra benefits because, as I said, the objectives that they are currently failing at are political rather than military...

Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown

04:01 / 23.10.05

Ellis touched on this in the last issue of "Global Frequency".

Space-based weapons are scary precisley because of this reason. High-tech shit is all well and good, but sometimes the simpler approach can be the most frightening.

And I'd think that the political repercussions of what amounts to a low yeild, no fallout nuclear strike would be enough to keep most politicians from doing it. The civilian death tolls would be incredible.

05:54 / 23.10.05

The point of the Rods would be the same as the Sword of Damocles. If you got yours up first, every man, woman and child would have one of these things floating five miles above their heads, waiting to be released. ICBMs have to go up before they can come down, require all manner of upkeep and maintenance, they're expensive.

(I have one of those Fisher Space Pens - it's brilliant!)

09:37 / 23.10.05

Again - I'm not seeing the utility. The United States already has big bad weapons that can't be stopped and that hasn't exactly allowed given them a free ride to waltz in anywhere unopposed.

And as I pointed out in my earlier posts, space-based weapons will still need maintainence (you don't want a rod from the gods falling on someone by accident, nor do you want it failing at the crucial moment).

I'm not seeing any scenarios where rods from the gods would be a useful weapon of war...

07:49 / 24.10.05

Sleaze - You're right, space-based weapons don't give you a free ride to "waltz in anywhere unopposed" but they do give you the edge in any conflict that does arise.
Would they be useful in the War On Terror (tm)? Probably not. But that doesn't mean that they won't be useful in the future. They also won't replace conventional forces, what they could do is largely replace your strategic long range weapons, your ICBMs, B52s & submarines.

13:17 / 24.10.05

The big advantage of space-based weapons (to continue the threadrot further)is you get the blast effect of a nuke with minimal radiation.

Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown

17:46 / 24.10.05

That's what I meant by saying "no fallout". The main radiation you're getting is due to the heat and speed smacking into the ground.

Good point on the maintence, Sleaze. And that also opens up the possibility of space sabatoge, and the need to keep commercial flights out of space. Commercial flights aren't TOO bad, most times when folks crash its into a forest or a cornfield. But a space plane crashes into one of your orbital weapons platforms? That's bad juju.

21:13 / 24.10.05

Attempting to marry rods from the gods and the main topic... China could been seen as a possible enemy against which rods from the gods could be used, but I have real trouble seeing a realistic justifiable scenario where this might come about. But then again, this is no guarentee that it wouldn't happen and defense is often about planning for all eventualities...