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Horror Film or Just Horrific

 
 
This Sunday
21:56 / 11.10.05
Branching from the Movie Canon thread: I stated that 'Requiem for a Dream' was, and is, a horror film. Somebody - possibly multiple somebodies - disagreed.
Apparently, it is not horror, but horrific.
So, what makes one, that, and the other, that other thing?
Horror, to my mind, is not necessarily a slasher flick, a murder story, or some variation on the creepy thing in your closet... Horror is everything frightening, or intended to be frightening, or horrific and evil and mean, from HP Lovecraft to 'Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf'. It may dovetail with comedy, with stysized bloodbaths and gore, with the thriller and morality-play, but it is not beholden to any of them.
'Requiem for a Dream' is a horror film in the same sense that 'Cape Fear' or 'Audition' are horror films. They are scary, at least in intent. They are horrific, at least in intent.
'The Excorcist' has been giving me gut laughs since I was but a wee little thing, and I still think it's funny as all hell and 'your cunting daughter' a brilliant gag line, but... it was intended to be terrifying and under those auspices, I have to count it as a horror film. John Candy may scare the shit out of you, but 'Canadian Bacon' is not really a horror film.
Somebody want to weigh in and do this better?
 
 
Triplets
23:35 / 11.10.05
Subjective. Does it scare, disturb or unsettle you? Then it's horror.

Look at it this way: somebody out there thought Police Academy was a comedy.
 
 
juan de marcos
01:40 / 12.10.05
One of the most terrifying movies ever made I can think off hand must be The Sound of Music. I still haven't found the guts to watch that...
 
 
matthew.
01:41 / 12.10.05
Yeah, I agree. This is as subjective as arguing which Beatle was more important. Does it matter? Not really. As long as the material gives you the willies in the proper place, then it's horror. Since genre is such a slippery sucker, it's almost impossible to gauge when and where horror starts or stops.

For example, I just got into the most vicious argument with some 15 year old at work. She maintained that Evil Dead and Evil Dead 2 are first and foremost horror films (by the by, she had never heard of Army of Darkness. Yowza!). Knowing enough about the history of horror, I argued that they are primarily comedy vehicles. My proof came from the fact that Sam Raimi has said on numerous occasions that the second film was inspired by The Three Stooges. He has also said that the more gore he fit into the first one, the more it made him laugh.

On the other hand, my opponent in this informal debate has a point; the movies are about demons, possessed people, reanimated people, pencils in feets, etc. The horror subject matter makes the film appear to be ultimately, horror films. But, personally, I regard them as brilliant comedy films. So who's right?

To answer the thread's question, I have to say, a horror film contains visible horror types (I'm referring to the old def'n of "type", i.e. archetypes). These horror types may be monsters, demons, angels, psychotics, and/or the supernatural. In a horror film, these types are presented as first and foremost the antagonist of the story. They are the unwanted foreign element, that which is abnormal in comparison to the protagonist's normal state. I'm not just making this up, this theory comes straight from Stephen King himself in an essay (maybe) called "Why We Watch Horror Movies". The horror film is generally about xenophobia, the fear of the unknown. If the movie contains visible horror types, but does not portray them as the obvious antagonist, I wouldn't call the movie's main goal to scare.

Here's an (exaggerated) example: The Man Without a Face, starring Mel Gibson. That movie contains a horror type, the disfigured man, and yet the movie does not aim to scare, so it's not superficially a horror movie. Mel Gibson's scarred character is not the obvious antagonist, so it's not horror. Yeah, I know this example is out there, but I think I've got a good case.

Another example. Francis Ford Coppola's 1992 film called (in America) Bram Stoker's Dracula. This movie does not scare me at all. Not at all. But it's horror. IMDB lists its genre as first, "drama", then "horror", and then "romance". That's what I qualify this movie as, a flawed, but heartwrenching love story. Under my own rules, however, this must be a horror film because the horror type, the vampire, is presented as the villain, the antagonist. But my own rules become loose here. Gary Oldman plays Dracula as a tortured romantic, simply searching for his long lost love. He is a tragic figure then, sort of a Hamlet, or better yet, a Romeo. And Winona Ryder and Gary Oldman are definitely "star-crossed lovers". So his antagonism comes from something not quite foreign, something very personal and intimate, something very human. If the horror film is about the fear of the unknown, then this film cannot be horror, because it is about love.

Even if everybody disagrees with my evaluation of Dracula and The Man Without A Face, my criteria of horror comes from Stephen King, so it's not entirely without merit.

Here's the clincher, though.... What about writers like Clive Barker? An author found in the horror section of my local bookstore, yet most of his oeuvre is not scary whatsoever. It contains horrific elements, and yet is about the human condition, the fragility of our emotions, and the strength of our convictions. He writes about the senses and their information conveyed to minds not ready or not willing to understand. Clive Barker trashes the definition I set out to articulate. Thanks, man.

What's my point? It's too subjective to ever define. Sorry it took me so long to get there. My point is that it's whatever floats your boat, whatever gets your goat, whatever does it for you.... It's simply too large of a genre to ever pin down definitively. We'll never do it.

Okay. Now I'm ready for people to start disagreeing with me. Bring it on.
 
 
Billuccho!
03:16 / 12.10.05
Evil Dead 1 is more horror, Evil Dead 2 is more comedy, but they're both horror comedies. (Army of Darkness is a comedic horror fantasy adventure).

And Man Without a Face is *hilarious* to me, but I also think To Kill a Mockingbird is one of the funniest movies I've ever seen. You Be The Judge!
 
 
D Terminator XXXIII
13:21 / 12.10.05
I disagree with the notion that Requiem is a horror movie. It utilizes bits and pieces that are horror (the fridge), but overall, it feels more like a 21st century drama to me.

One of the key notions that I have about horror as a genre, is that there is always, always something that acts as a catalyst, something that will change the lives of the main characters; I think of that catalyst as something more solid than the abstract catalyst of addiction to be found in Requiem.

Sorry, I don't have much too time on my hands, so I can't make my argument solid. Please pick it apart.

(btw - man without a face, didn't you mean Eyes w/o a Face?)
 
 
matthew.
14:00 / 12.10.05
No. Eyes Without a Face is a French thriller from 1959.

The Man Without a Face is a 1993 American drama starring Mel Gibson.

Very different.
 
 
grant
14:54 / 12.10.05
I tried to get into this a little in a Books thread about ethnicity and genre.

To me, a genre is a well-defined set of formal, narrative conventions -- a work that "transcends genre" manages to use those conventions in an unconventional way.

The conventions of the horror genre:

First and foremost, it's there to scare you. The story is about fear and frightening things.

- Requiem for a Dream = not about fear as much as it is about addiction and the grim fascination with addiction. That grim fascination is really close to fear, but for me, it doesn't cross the line. A viewer with a phobia about addiction would experience this movie as a horror film.

The imagery is transgressive. It deals with violation of boundaries -- of bodies (slasher film) or of biological categories (creature film), of social taboos (what happens to the kids who go all the way when the psycho's on the loose?) and of the fabric of reality (the Other that comes From Beyond).

Based on these, there's a simple narrative structure:

* A violation. (The saucer crash in The Thing, the journey to Transylvania in Dracula.)

* The victimization of the innocent & the spread of evil/transgression. (The Thing starts chomping up scientists in their lab, Dracula starts flitting around London... turning other people into vampires.)

* Illumination of the nature of evil/transgressive element. (It's a vegetable/shapeshifter! He's a vampire!)

* The status quo reasserts itself, but does so in an uneasy fashion, involving sacrifice and ambiguity. (We've killed it, but we don't know if there are more Things out there. Thanks to Mina's selflessness, the vampire is dead for good this time... we think.)

The real horror of Requiem for a Dream is that there's no recapitulation at the end -- the status quo attempts to reassert itself, but it doesn't. They're down the rabbit hole for good. I know I've seen other films I'd call "horror movies" that are similarly bleak, but none are coming to mind, and it'd definitely be a break with the conventional narrative structure.
 
 
Axolotl
15:07 / 12.10.05
Good post Grant, though as a reminder, Dawn & Day of the Dead come close to ignoring the return to the status quo. If people are interested Stephen King's "Danse Macabre" analyses the horror genre in a insightful way, though iirc I didn't agree with all he said, especially regarding the archetypes of horror.
 
 
_Boboss
15:19 / 12.10.05
cf. horror conventions w. drug-exploitation flick conventions:

systole: kids (or hey, even grannies cos, like, medicines are drugs too yeah?) take drugs

interim: it all goes bad* cos drugs is bad

diastole: the rubbish end!

*boys bad = just want to get back to that good little boy they were when they were wee. girls bad = dirty slut, urgh you're so sexually degraded. granny bad = hey tv's a drug too!11!! so she was fucked from the start. stupid old granny.
 
 
grant
17:35 / 12.10.05
You know, I'm not even sure I remember the ends of those two Romero movies that clearly -- don't they both end up with an escape from a fucked up situation on the ground?

To me, the real horror of Night of the Living Dead was the return to a fucked up status quo. Redneck justice wins.
 
 
matthew.
03:27 / 13.10.05
I was reading about the spiritual autobiography as created by St. Augustine. Every spiritual biography covers the same steps, which are:
1) Natural Childhood (eg, a childhood that is not necessarily innocent)

2) The Fall into sin, then exile (with Augustine, he and some friends stole a pear (fruit! get it?) for the thrill of theft)

3) The wandering, the journey, the odyssey. This took Augustine from South Africa to Rome where he taught composition.

4) The Crisis of Faith, which leads into

5) The Epiphany. For Augustine, he walked into a garden and heard a bell. He thought the bell was telling him to open the Bible to a random page. The verse he found spoke to his soul so perfectly, that he had an instantaneous Conversion. From there, he had

6) The Return, in which he went home and eventually became a bishop.

So when people started to write spiritual autobiographies and without the religion, they turned to Augustine. They created their own conventions:
1)Natural Childhood
2)resists the social order
3)wandering
4)has a crisis of Identity
5)a reconciliation with the father/law/social order
6)return to home and marry the girl next home.

This reconciliation with the social order is not when you realize you're wrong and come home a conformist. Instead, you mediate and reconcile. This fifth step does not violate your true self. That's the important part. It is not a violation of yourself.

[And of course, James Joyce played with these conventions with Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, in which Stephen Daedalus has first, an Augustinian crisis of faith and then a fall and then a crisis of identity and then another fall. Ha!]

The point is that horror fiction, especially gothic horror fiction seems to owe a debt to St Augustine. When modern spiritual biographies were written, like in the twentieth century, the biography always had the protagonist having trouble with one or more of the steps. As grant posted so eloquently earlier, there is a return to the status quo with sacrifice or ambiguity. So the reconciliation with the social order, or the return to the status quo with sacrifice comes from St. Augustine.

I realize this does not answer the thread's question, but I thought some people might like to know. Earlier I wrote that the main part of horror was the intrusion of the foreign element. grant backed that up with writing that an element of horror involves the return to status quo. Arguably this idea comes from St Augustine. Interesting, no?
 
 
Triplets
07:38 / 13.10.05
You know, I'm not even sure I remember the ends of those two Romero movies that clearly -- don't they both end up with an escape from a fucked up situation on the ground?

Dawn ends up with the white couple and the black guy escaping in a chopper - but only after the black guy decides at the very last minute not to commit self-inflicted head shooting, fighting his way past zombies to the tune of whizbang highschool football music.

That, readers, was fucking terrifying.
 
 
matthew.
13:26 / 13.10.05
the white couple? no. just the white girl. her boyfriend, the helicopter pilot turned into a zombie in the elevator. Romero remarked that that performance was the best zombie performance he'd ever captured on film.

day of the dead ends with the Major being shot to death by the talking zombie
 
 
Axolotl
14:17 / 13.10.05
Either way the status quo hasn't really reasserted itself. At the very best the characters themselves have temporarily gained some respite from danger, but essentially the world still remains a terrible place with little or no hope for the future.
Other films that have similar endings are the recent remake of "Day of the Dead" (which had some of the scariest moments of the entire film), which I won't spell out for fear of spoilers, I suppose you could also include the ending of Carpenter's version of "The Thing".
Damn, I wish I had access to my university anthropology notes on disgust & horror, because something's telling me they would be relevant.
 
 
D Terminator XXXIII
15:20 / 13.10.05
boys bad = just want to get back to that good little boy they were when they were wee. girls bad = dirty slut, urgh you're so sexually degraded. granny bad = hey tv's a drug too!11!! so she was fucked from the start. stupid old granny.

If one chooses to, one can make every movie sound bad and stupid. You could write about how Requiem bum-raped you, you know, metaphorically, emotionally, that sort of thing, however, that does not an insightful critique make. Without a more rewarding analysis, your comments about Requiem comes across as shallow and, well, gum-bitchy.

No. Eyes Without a Face is a French thriller from 1959.

Sorry. I was in a hurry, so did nothing further than casually glance at your post. But have you seen it? Recommend?

I don't have much else to add, now that grant's superb destillation of the horror genre is writ. But one observation is that, and a slight improvement on my initial post, in horror movies, the catalyst to change is always an external element, and never an internal one.

I think.
 
 
juan de marcos
22:49 / 13.10.05
I don't have much else to add, now that grant's superb destillation of the horror genre is writ. But one observation is that, and a slight improvement on my initial post, in horror movies, the catalyst to change is always an external element, and never an internal one.

I think.


Not begging to differ but could the monster/villain/creature not be a metaphor for our unconscious?

Many years ago when I was a student at a film school in Brussels, I wrote a so-called 'essay' about the aesthetics of German expressionistic movies in general and horror flicks of that period in particular. No groundbreaking thoughts, just my € 0,02:

The monster could be a dark reflection of our own suppressed desires.
e.g. : Nosferatu and other vampire movies are maybe not about our fear of some blood sucking creature but our wish to roam the night and to satisfy our sexual desires.
Der Golem could be seen as a man made creation going out of control but at the same time it could be a story about a people that wants to defend and revenge itself.
Das Kabinet des Doktor Caligari is probably more about lust to break out of the ordinary daily life than about a psychopath using a somnambulist.
etc...

I know this sounds more as 'Freud for dummies' but I think it's worth investigating wether his theories about 'das Ich', 'das Es' and 'das Ueberich' apply towards horror movies.

In the same essay I made the statement that Romero's Dead films could be in the same vein. At some point (Day iirc) someone says: "They [the zombies] are us, only in a lesser form". Our bearded friend even emphasized this in (the underrated) Land of the Dead by portraying the living dead as just another community with (unfortunately for us) slightly different needs.


(Mmmmm, this doesn't seem to hold well together. Partly disavantage of not writing in my mother tongue and partly due to the pressure of returning asap to the duties of the night shift.)
 
 
matthew.
03:16 / 15.10.05
I read somewhere that Stoker intended Dracula to be an allegory for sexually transmitted diseases.

But I also read that Dracula was an allegory for uninhibited sexual desire.

So which is it?
 
 
Triplets
11:29 / 15.10.05
Well, both, I'd imagine.
 
 
This Sunday
18:41 / 16.10.05
It's an allegory about dirty, savage foreigners with strange ways not our own. And selling them land, inviting them into your home, and, yes, oral sex with anyone who's going to go eat a baby shortly thereafter.
Obviously.
That, or, more preferably, for both Lucy and Dracula, serpately, that it is simply preferable to stay home and, er, if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with. Even if they're going to eat babies and rae your agent, or just marry the agent, somewhen down the road.
That's a far nicer allegory, I think, even it isn't really an allegory.

To drive this back on track: Is intent more important than audience decision? Just because I find 'The Excorcist' and 'Beat the Devil' funny as all hell, doesn't mean that they are comedies. Or horror. As far as I'm concerned, if whoever crafted the thing says 'horror' it's horror, and if 'comedy', then comedy. Any 'Death of the Author' lovers out there willing to champion the other side, in a lucid and reasonable manner? Maybe win me over?

Oh, and what's the difference between a frightening film and a 'horror film' anyhow? Is there?
Not tense-ness, or a thriller, but is horror revoltion or is it how scary or if it is scary?
 
 
grant
20:58 / 17.10.05
Well, in my view, it's a "horror movie" if it's about things we (=our culture) think are scary. If the aim is to examine something creepity or eerie.

That's why The Exorcist or The Blob both count as horror movies, even if you personally don't find them all that scary. They're fictions *about* scary things, that use certain genre conventions. (shadows, tritones in the soundtrack, quick cuts, etc.)
 
 
Spaniel
21:31 / 17.10.05
I actually find this thread pretty annoying. I mean, I can't fucking believe that Grant is the only one who's mentioned conventions.

Look, guys, genre ain't subjective. Just because you find something scary, or unpleasant, or tense, or any combination of the above doesn't mean it's a horror film, if it did then genre wouldn't be a very useful term.
 
 
matthew.
00:58 / 18.10.05
Okay. So grant is the only one talking about convention huh?

Are you trying to tell us that genre is objective then? If you're going to make that statement, you'd better back it up. If it's so objective, then define it for us. Enlighten us "annoying" people.
 
 
Spaniel
09:47 / 18.10.05
I'm going to ask you to do a little work here. Reread this sentence and try and dig out the meaning.

Just because you find something scary, or unpleasant, or tense, or any combination of the above doesn't mean it's a horror film, if it did then genre wouldn't be a very useful term

Now, why, if genre is subjective wouldn't it be a useful term? Answer: because that would mean that when I was having a conversation about horror films I could mean absolutely anything: The Sound of Music, Dog Day Afternoon, Nightmare on Elmstreet, You've Got Mail - whatever. And if I could mean absolutely anything, how the fuck would anyone else know what I was talking about, how would anyone know what I meant by horror? When you go to a video store, how would you know what you'd find under the genre catagory headings?

I think we're missing the point that catagories need to fall back on objective criteria for them to be of any use. And genres, if they're anything, are catagories.

Any given genre offers a set of *culturally agreed upon* (non-subjective) conventions, motifs, narrative structures, and characters. Now, that's not to say that a film's genre isn't open to interpretation, and that genres don't change over time, or sprout sub-genres, or blur into each other, or combine, or that multi-genre narratives are impossible. And the interpretative, exploratory skills of the reader are important when it comes to stretching our notions of genre, but when you're trying to recatagorise a film, you should come better armed than "I reckon it's pretty scary/nasty/violent/gory so it's probably better defined as horror".
 
 
Spaniel
09:59 / 18.10.05
I think I should stress that whilst I believe there are objective criteria that define genre catagories (particular conventions, etc...), those criteria are open to change, and/or interpretation. This makes genre a semi-vague system of catagorisation.

I ain't talking about objective as in written into the bedrock of existence, but rather, as I've said above, *culturally agreed upon*.
 
 
Supaglue
10:11 / 18.10.05
Well, in my view, it's a "horror movie" if it's about things we (=our culture) think are scary. If the aim is to examine something creepity or eerie.

That's why The Exorcist or The Blob both count as horror movies, even if you personally don't find them all that scary. They're fictions *about* scary things, that use certain genre conventions. (shadows, tritones in the soundtrack, quick cuts, etc.)


Do you think horror movies also almost always touch, however lightly, on the supernatural? Even thrillers that come under the genre 'horror' intimate underlying fears of the unknown and unexplained - the slasher/stalker who watches you whever you go, who appears killed but manages a last attack. All perfectly explainable, but hint at more. I'd say there has to be that element of soemthing unexplainable - be it a monster or mortal. Probably the feeling of powerlessness against the adversity.

Thread rotting a little, I read somewhere that the original ending for Dawn of the Dead was going to be the Swot guy actually shooting himself and the pregnant woman at the chopper hearing that and putting her head into the rotor blades. Now that would have been some ending...
 
 
Spaniel
12:28 / 18.10.05
Recently, in conversation, some friends and I loosely coined a new horror sub-genre: torture movies. Where the protagonist transgesses in some way and ultimately suffers (torture) at the hands of some evil force or other. In torture movies torture forms the horrific core of the film - it is the torture aspect as opposed to x monster, or y unexplained event(s), that brings terror to the audience. The antogonist(s) whilst significant are ultimately less frightening than the acts of torture that take place.

I'm thinking of films like Wolf Creek, Hostel, Misery, and perhaps Audition.

I don't like torture movies much.
 
 
grant
15:35 / 18.10.05
Yikes. Yes, that's definitely a sub-genre (interesting that Audition and Misery both feature attacks on the ankles... wonder why that is).

Do you think horror movies also almost always touch, however lightly, on the supernatural? Even thrillers that come under the genre 'horror' intimate underlying fears of the unknown and unexplained - the slasher/stalker who watches you whever you go, who appears killed but manages a last attack. All perfectly explainable, but hint at more.

Well, I think that goes along with the nature of fear (as does all that sexy sexy stuff alluded to earlier). Fear isn't rational, so of course it lends itself to supernatural stuff.
 
 
Spaniel
15:44 / 18.10.05
interesting that Audition and Misery both feature attacks on the ankles... wonder why that is

Other than painful? Umm, loss of independence/personal agency is a theme in both, so...
 
  
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