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Underground > Policy & Help >

Offensive?

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17:07 / 10.10.05

This, by Our Lady of the Ashes:

"There's a rundown of the likely candidates here, but with the kind of people Tory activists are, a small pine tree would be in with a chance just so long as it were anti-Europe."

As a Tory myself, and once a Tory-activist, I was wondering if the posting guidelines only protect liberals, or do we Right-wingers have similar 'rights' too?

In any case, I do, personally, find it offensive.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

17:10 / 10.10.05

No more offensive than the between-party back-and-forth that goes on in Parliament.

17:24 / 10.10.05

Possibly you want to get a thicker skin or ask for clarification and justification, either within the original thread or a new one in Switchboard.

17:34 / 10.10.05

But surely a person stigmatised because of their political beliefs, is entitled to the same protections as a person stigmatised by a statement that relates to the colour of their skin, or their attraction to a member of the same sex?

I don't see how my political-allegiance should mean that, to exist on Barbelith, I have to accept that somebody can get away with telling me that my sum worth = less than a pine tree. I never got that kind of insult when I campaigned, or was out canvassing, in all of four years.

Maybe you can convince me otherwise.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

17:37 / 10.10.05

Did you try arguing your point in the thread?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

17:41 / 10.10.05

And if you actually read the post in question, you'd find that nowhere were you told you were worth less than a small pine tree- merely that you'd probably vote for one.

17:43 / 10.10.05

Why do you want to “exist on Barbelith”? Seriously. Your five posts so far have been this complaint, one snipe and two derogatory comments. I don’t think you like us very much to begin with, so why do you even care what people on barbelith are saying about tory activists? Wouldn’t it be simpler if you just, I dunno, found yourself another board, rather than insisting this one be tailored so as not to offend you? Then everyone could be happy.

18:04 / 10.10.05

Agreed. There's the faint smell of troll about both this suit and this complaint. Worth pointing out that concern was voiced by others when one of the first posts to be submitted from it was about Haus.

I suspect that if you really gave a shit about this you'd be questioning the statement's accuracy, rather than running straight into Policy to try and kick up a fuss about nothing. Until you can demonstrate that you're on Barbelith to be a part of ongoing discussions, I'm not going to spend any more time worrying about this.

18:24 / 10.10.05

Well, the Policy forum seemed the place to question it, given that this is where everyone else seems to complain about offensive posts. The quote was actually from the Barbequotes thread. If someone could tell me where the original came from I'd be happy to read it and will stand corrected if I've misread the comment. Here's the post I read:

http://www.barbelith.com/topic/7/from/1155#post499330

For what it's worth, your hostile, defensive, biased and downright RUDE comments have made me think I probably shouldn't post here. Not again. All I was doing, as far as I'm concerned, was speaking up for another unfairly-stigmatised 'minority group' in society. It's one set of rules for one minority group, and another for another, it would seem...

18:26 / 10.10.05

Yes, you're right. It would. Why don't you have a go about how white males are unfairly treated nowadays? That seems to be where we're going next.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

18:37 / 10.10.05

I think you'll find I was actually referring to the part you quoted.

18:38 / 10.10.05

That's seems a pointless suggestion E Randius, so pray forgive me if I don't start writing anthems and painting placards right this second.

18:41 / 10.10.05

The way I'm reading it is that there are Tory candidates standing, but that a small pine tree could also stand and be in with a chance, if they were anti-Europe. Is this wrong?

ONLY NICE THINGS

18:44 / 10.10.05

Time between saying he's not minded to post here and posting here - 14 minutes. That's less than the last time he left Barbelith and then came back. The contractions are getting closer...

Seriously, kids. Nine posts and he has already stormed off and stormed back on twice. Either a joke suit or a joke person.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

18:44 / 10.10.05

No. Saying Lady was "telling me that my sum worth = less than a pine tree", however, IS wrong.

19:17 / 10.10.05

I personally interpret the posting etiquette in the Wiki, specifically the section "Things That Will Get You Into Trouble Pretty Quickly," as offering no protection against having political parties and ideologies mercilessly slammed. Straight from the wiki:

If you are going to espouse a position—any position—make sure that (a) you've really thought it through, and (b) you are ready and able to explain or defend it in a reasonable, articulate manner.

You haven't even made any post in that thread, so you can't say that Lady made that post thinking of you personally, along the lines of "Hey, here's a groovy way to take a sidelong passive-agressive dig at ol' John," nor that zhe is unwilling to debate the statement. You haven't tried to defend Toryism or its tenets at all- you came straight here to complain. Once again, see the chunk of the wiki above- you're the one espousing Toryism, you go defend it. An unwillingness to do so on your part does not create an obligation to remain silent on points that may run contrary to your views on the part of anyone else.

If you want to tango with Lady, feel free, but if your arguments aren't well thought out and defensible, you're gonna get eaten alive. This is true across the board. People who go into any debate without preparing and without a logical argument go down ugly.

19:41 / 10.10.05

This John Cage suit is patently a troll one. If this was the Convo I'd be advocating Morrissey; as it is, I'm just advocating ignoring the above nonsense. Anyone actually seriously concerned would have argued on the thread.

There might be a broader point about how to deal with obviously trolling complaints about policy decisions, I suppose.

20:17 / 10.10.05

Wow, you lot are really over-reacting to this.

20:18 / 10.10.05

You're not convincing you know.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

20:19 / 10.10.05

Hello Andrew. What are you going to do now, post more of your hil-ar-ious rape stories, or try and break into someone's suit?

20:59 / 10.10.05

Right, I'll fire another email off to Tom and ask him if he's happy killing this one.

21:44 / 10.10.05

The user has been banned. I reviewed older posts and they are all either anti-Haus posts or complaints about bias. The user in question has contributed nothing to the board in terms of actual conversation at all, and can only be assumed to be a troll with a grude. It's all very tedious.

22:20 / 10.10.05

Someone ought to register with the name, 'Net Negative'.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

19:39 / 15.10.05

But surely a person stigmatised because of their political beliefs, is entitled to the same protections as a person stigmatised by a statement that relates to the colour of their skin, or their attraction to a member of the same sex?

I think that this is something I should answer, troll or not, since the right wing is using this tactic quite a lot lately, and the answer is simple:

You can choose your political beliefs. You can't choose the color of yoru skin or your orientation. Changing a political belief is like changing jobs. It's hard, but it is possible.

That answer it for you?

Regrettable Juvenilia

22:43 / 15.10.05

No, because preudo-scientific biological essentialism is not the answer, hence the existence of a movement/term such as Queer By Choice.

The right answer is that being right-wing is stupid and evil.

01:23 / 16.10.05

Yeah, fuck off, right wing apologists. And take the New Labour Governmenmt with you. It's not entirely your fault. They have encouraged you in these asinine beliefs.

15:15 / 16.10.05

See, kids? Demonizing your opposition is not only fun—it gives all your arguments instant moral authority! It's incredibly effective at winning hearts and minds, and—best of all—it saves all that time that you used to spend on crafting sensible rebuttals!

Screw empathy! Screw magnanimity! Revel in your own rectitude, and dismiss out-of-hand those opinions that clash with yours!

Why practice the art of gentle correction when you can just shout 'em down instead? It's what they want, really—honest! They're all gagging for it! The louder you abuse them, the more thoroughly you convince them of the error of their ways! Bullying jerkdom—embrace it! Why should fascists have all the fun?

THAT's Better Propaganda® in action, kids! And that's why the tide is turning our way.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

15:52 / 16.10.05

Seeing as the troll was dismissed and now Jack is wanting to fight people, could a moderator lock this thread please?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:55 / 16.10.05

For the record, Jack, it should probably be pointed out that your post may indeed apply to the last couple of posts, but I would put serious money on the topic starter NOT having been offended, but merely looking for a fight. Not disagreeing with you, I just reckon the two arguments need to be separated before such time in the future as this thread gets dragged up to illustrate a point.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:56 / 16.10.05

oops, cross-posted with Lady... but yes, this thread's not really achieving much in the way of anything anymore, is it?

16:03 / 16.10.05

Not wanting to fight anybody, Lady. Just shaking my head in horrified disbelief.

You know. The usual.

ONLY NICE THINGS

17:12 / 16.10.05

We know, Jack, it's difficult to be you and yet still surrounded by fallen humanity. It's only a shame that to the fallen eyes of the pit this seems like self-advertisement rather than the pure tears of the angels.

Back ontopic - we already have a thread on this, started by Legba Rex, but the short version is that joining Barbelith carries with it the acceptance that other people may disagree with your ideologies, and that you should be prepared to cope with that disagreement. Disagreeing with people in thread is a way of doing this.

Some beliefs will be further outside the consensus than others - right-wing ideology may often fit this profile. If you do not feel able to cope with having a minority opinion, it might be better to seek a community where people will agree with you. The posting guidelines protect neither liberals nor conservatives. They are intended to protect people from harrassment, but disagreement with political viewpoints is not considered harrassment. Insulting somebody on the basis of their gender, race or sexuality is. This may seem arbitrary, but by signing up to Barbelith you have agreed to it. It's a work in progress working out exactly how this functions. We're working on formal terms and conditions, and we thank you for your patience.

18:44 / 16.10.05

I think there's some confusion here - Jack was, I presume, replying to Petey's post, not the identification and removal of the troll suit.

And, you know, if that's the case then he does have a point.

18:53 / 16.10.05

seconded.

19:00 / 16.10.05

Haus: As Randy has correctly pointed out, my screed was prompted by young Master Shaftoe's assertion that "being right-wing is stupid and evil."

Your point about the temptation to hubris, however, is well-made and gratefully received.

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