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Underground > Comic Books >

Comics have overdosed on adverts

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21:34 / 13.10.05

While the characters in Super-books are usually buff, it's normally in a way that emphasises the pure, iconic values of the hero, rather than as a sexual object.

How might one make this distinction? Pointers, please.

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

00:01 / 14.10.05

Actually, haven't we spent the past twenty years arguing about the psychosexual implications of superheroes? Didn't Watchmenbomb blow up the "pure, iconic values?" I thought a spandex-covered crotch was just a spandex-covered crotch?

Back on the advertizing front? How do we feel about the loss of the letter column as an element of a comic book, replaced by "coming attractions / watch this space" pages? I miss the old letters pages in books like Starman, replaced by inhouse advertizing; the sense of letter-writing community and people's thoughts on comics dissolves. I know it's all about the Net now, but I -liked- reading the letters page just after I'd read the current story. It was part of the experience.

12:21 / 14.10.05

Ganesh - the difference I mean relates mostly to mainstream hero comics like Superman, Batman, Spidey, etc, basically, all the "flagship" heroes that have more money invested in them than I can imagine. If you see a picture of supes on a front cover, and he's in the classic Supes pose - hands on hips, chest pumped out, muscles improbably rendered through the spandex - this has a completely seperate set of connotations.

Now, even though this could be construed as a sexual image, it has almost never been used as one (by the comics companies that put out these books). Supes in this pose is standing for "truth, justice, etc" and traditional ideas of masculinity, strength, honour and so on. I've rarely seen a mainstream male hero and thought - "now there's an overtly sexual pose." Maybe the comics company won't want to play with their characters that way. This is another discussion all together though.

Conversely, the opposite can be said for female characters - the costumes of which are usually designed to accentuate the sexual characteristics of the woman, positioning her as the sexual object that her male counterpart is rarely used as.

Books like the Watchmen et al are, of course in another league, and could never be refered to as traditional superhero books, even though they play with the conventions of the genre.

Hmmm, maybe I should end this threadrot... it's just an interesting topic to me is all.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:28 / 14.10.05

I still like the ladies and manage to fit being an uber-geek with a healthy sex-life.

Welcome to the board! Listen, don't pay attention to those other people - I thought The Unfunnies was really, y'know - subversive.

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:12 / 14.10.05

I mean, girls who like comics are more into geeky-style boys (this is in my limited experience with girls who like comics, of which I can think of about 5 at the mo) and not the body-type (and by connotation, the lifestyle type) depicted in the Bodd ad. Conversely, all the comics-guys I know don't really like "normal" girls either.

Have you considered that given the option they'd also go for normal guys and normal girls, whatever the cock they are, but don't find themselves in situations where they meet them socially? I mean, as a comics reader you spend a lot of your time gazing at breasty ladies with flowing hair and tiny waists. If they leave comics readers utterly cold, why do more superheroines not have thick ankles and lip rings? It's commercial suicide...

14:02 / 14.10.05

I took that to mean more along the lines of Suicide Girls than some hairy-legged biffer with a muzzie, which is also my experience of comic and role-playing ladies.

In any case, superheroines all wear cosplay-style outfits, boots, gloves, masks and capes - how alternative do you want to get?

Is this considered threadrot?

14:03 / 14.10.05

I took that to mean more along the lines of Suicide Girls than some hairy-legged biffer with a muzzie, which is also my experience of comic and role-playing ladies.

The Suicide Girls, not the biffer.

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:05 / 14.10.05

Oh well as long as they're not hairy-legged!

Jesus Christ, when exactly did this forum turn into fucking Newsarama?

14:07 / 14.10.05

Ahem, anyway, comic ads.

There's a nice bit in an upcoming Doom Patrol reprint with the return of the Men From N.O.W.H.E.R.E. Their dialogue consists entirely of references to old comic ads - atomic subs, smoke bombs, x-ray specs and so on, tying in with Flex Mentallo's secret origin. Artwork by Steve Yeowell, I seem to remember.

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:18 / 14.10.05

I took that to mean more along the lines of Suicide Girls than some hairy-legged biffer with a muzzie, which is also my experience of comic and role-playing ladies.

Welcome to the board! And don't listen to them - your handling of homosexuality during your run on The Authority was both taboo-busting and extremely sensitive.

14:19 / 14.10.05

Oh well as long as they're not hairy-legged!

Jesus Christ, when exactly did this forum turn into fucking Newsarama?

Simply expanding on the thick ankles and lip rings theme to make a point.

Anyway, Newsarama rocks!!!!! \m/

14:20 / 14.10.05

Welcome to the board! And don't listen to them - your handling of homosexuality during your run on The Authority was both taboo-busting and extremely sensitive.

Thanks! I did a lot of strenuous research for that, and I think it paid off.

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:25 / 14.10.05

to make a point

Great! What was it?

14:34 / 14.10.05

Great! What was it?

That comic enthusiasts, or fanboys, if you will, can relate more from the women that they are likely to associate with in their own lives to a goth/alt./whatever you want to call them-type girl than the disembodied head Gwen Stefani-type as portrayed in the Bodd ad.

Don't worry, I've got the message now - fat ankles good, hairy legs bad!

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:43 / 14.10.05

That comic enthusiasts, or fanboys, if you will, can relate more from the women that they are likely to associate with in their own lives to a goth/alt./whatever you want to call them-type girl than the disembodied head Gwen Stefani-type as portrayed in the Bodd ad.

But is that in any way true? For example, Seven of Nine isn't exactly a suicidegirl, even assuming that suicide girls _aren't_ normal - tattoos and piercings are not that far from the mainstream. Tasha Yar - not tattooed, not pierced, not a goth. Buffy, likewise. I'm not seeing any convincing evidence to the effect that fanboys are attracted to a different species of lady than boyboys. Presumably the idea is that the male figure in the BOD advert is aspirational, both in terms of his physique (which is itself _heroic_ - it follows the formal demands of a superhero body) and the female attention he/his deodorant is attracting.

15:04 / 14.10.05

For example, Seven of Nine isn't exactly a suicidegirl, even assuming that suicide girls _aren't_ normal - tattoos and piercings are not that far from the mainstream. Tasha Yar - not tattooed, not pierced, not a goth. Buffy, likewise.

Of course that's true, but your examples are also a far cry from the "aspirational" stereotypes in the Bodd advert. There is something very different and very cool [to certain people] about them - cyborg, starship security officer, vampire hunter - and hence something that appeals to those people who are more likely to be interested in the fantastic concepts prevalent in comics, rather than, say, football and the pinups in Nuts or Zoo.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:07 / 14.10.05

I don't think that works. We were discussing physical appearance rather than character portrayal. So, if you'd rather:

Denise Crosby was a blond woman with a slim but athletic build and no piercings or tattoos. Likewise Sarah Michelle Geller. Likewise the women represented in the BOD advert.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:27 / 14.10.05

For that matter, I'm pretty sure Geller has appeared in features in lad mags. Alyson Hannigan certainly did a photoshoot for Sky, and Charisma Carpenter has posed for Playboy...

15:33 / 14.10.05

Denise Crosby was a blond woman with a slim but athletic build and no piercings or tattoos. Likewise Sarah Michelle Geller. Likewise the women represented in the BOD advert.

Let's boil it down even further - DNA say breed! Need no-tail!

Look, I understand I'm not making any friends with my viewpoint on this board, so I'll keep it [relatively] brief and then I'll leave it alone.

As I see it, the women in the Bodd advert represent a type of girl that an outcast kid - one who likes comics and fantasy films, is shy and awkward, I speak from experience - is far too nerdy to get near, let alone talk to - the backwards angora Kangol cap, the lip gloss, these are the epitome of untouchable It girls. The guy in the advert is toned and muscled, good-looking, whatever, they're all over him. For at least this geek, the sight of those types of women in an advert, whose real-life analogues might well have laughed in his face if he'd ever summoned up the courage to try and talk to them as equals, would only bring forth feelings of coldness, jealous disdain, anger and frustration at worst. Nerds, geeks, they're great, I am one, but in real life they gravitate to people they can relate to, and I charge any one of you to go into a comic shop and see a trio of slim, tanned, ghetto fabulous bottle blondes like in the Bodd advert, mixing it with the rest of the clientele.

15:40 / 14.10.05

So, uh, how about that Honda Civic, huh? I hear it corners on rails.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:54 / 14.10.05

I don't think it's about making friends - I just don't think your position is at all coherent, being both counter-intuitive and counter-factual. Surely there is nothing alienating to the comic reader in encountering a cartoon picture of an attractive blonde woman in fashionable clothing in a comic book, nor a cartoon picture of a heavily-muscled young man? Unless you believe that people reading the Fantastic Four are doing so in a constant agony of self-loathing and disgust, I just don't see the logic. The fact that you are now trying to rot your own threadrot suggests that you don't either.

21:13 / 14.10.05

I thought the point was that this ad wasn't necessarily representatve of it's readership. The ad may feature people with aspirational features, but they're nothing that I, as a geeky alternakid would aspire to.

The fact that I happen to read comics doesn't mean I want to be a musclebound 'lad', it means I'm the opposite of those people, as are most of the of comics readers I know.

As for the comments on the ideal geek-girl, yeah, I think it's a cross between Quinne from the Suicide girls and Alyson Hannigan.

Fuck. Yeah.

Anyway, one good thing about comic ads, living the the UK, is that sometimes they give you the heads up on stuff that won't be out here for ages. I saw Mask of the Phantasm in an ad before I'd heard of it. I nearly wet my pants I was so excited. That's not an ad I'd have seen otherwise.

21:21 / 14.10.05

Wow, as soon as I saw 56 replies and that this thread was on it's second page, I had a pretty good idea that it would've gone off topic.

21:49 / 14.10.05

Too right!

The comic ads I've been seeing since the late '80s, and which I've never previously been so uncomfortably aware of that I've needed to comment on them - let alone use that as a reason for a refund - have always seemed relevant to me as a comics reader. They were for videogames, films, TV series, other titles and the like. Most of them [like the Batman film you mention] [and which is great] were geared towards an American audience and therefore tantalising months away from my grasp, and likewise most of them appealed to the interests of the accepted readership.

Apart from the fact that these current ads seem to be marketing products that are clearly at odds with the readership of comics, the frequency of those ads is increasingly obstructing the enjoyment of the story. There are more pages of ads than story in FF/Iron Man, and definitely more than in any comic before now. That's got to say something deeply worrying about the state of the commercial end of the monthly comics market, and that threatens to change an industry we're all committed to, for the worse.

21:51 / 14.10.05

Wow, as soon as I saw 56 replies and that this thread was on it's second page, I had a pretty good idea that it would've gone off topic.

Aren't those the best ones..?

Or at least the ones that provoke the most comment.

21:55 / 14.10.05

Hey, wow, look, we're agreeing!

The one thing I miss these days is the letter columns, which are now taken up by ads. That's less stuff to read! I think it shows how unhealthy the comics industry is at the moment when prices are rising and there are more ads than ever.

What would you prefer though? 24 pages of ads for shit you don't need, or £5 an issue?

22:31 / 14.10.05

£5 an issue, but I've got to get a letter column for that, preferably with involved responses by the writer.

Some people are or were still doing this - GM in the Invisibles, Bendis in Powers, Paul Grist in Jack Staff, David Lapham in Stray Bullets. The last two completely ad-free - and less than £5 an issue, to boot.

22:58 / 14.10.05

Isn't Bod (one d! I checked.)'s rippling icon simply a contemporary hero of the beach, without the strenuous physical exercise?

Though the ladies, about whom a separate argument rages, in this presumed antecedent can barely be said to have any physical type, so vaguely-defined were they.

07:52 / 17.10.05

count the ads in Ennis' first ish of the new ghost rider...
single 1st page, then unspoiled splash, but after that there is at least an ad for every page, facing every page until the last splash, and honestly, with the computer-sleek layout of the book's pages and the ads themselves, not to mention the two multi-page spread ads, its downright disorienting in tone and mood here...if the story is good it will have to be a trade experience.
Mighty Marvel ... never knowing when to say when

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:31 / 17.10.05

Is there a relationship here? More people waiting for the trades means that sales of the indiviudal comics is going down, which means that the advertising pages are less valuable, and therefore that more of them need to be sold in order to hit break-even on the publishing costs?

09:00 / 17.10.05

I have a special fondness for a well-printed comic with a nice card cover and no messy adverts that distract the eye/break the flow. At the moment, I'm finding my fix in Crumb things from Fantagraphics (Art and Beauty) and the Burlyman Entertainment line (Doc Frankenstein, Shaolin Cowboy: they have a few relevant ads at the back after the story- for their company, for Matrix stuff, for charitable organisations eg. Protect). I read (less attractive) single issues also, but these little art objects really float my boat. I feel like I'm really getting something special for my $7AUD ($Australian).

09:55 / 17.10.05

Spot Cream Company Executive: Look, I've been having a think about what you said, and I don't really imagine that our product is suitable for advertising in your magazines...

Marvel Advertising Salesperson: No! No, you're wrong. It's exactly the right product. It's the perfect market.

SCCE: We-e-ell... I did a bit of internet research. I found this website called "Barbelith" and they didn't seem receptive to this kind of thing...

MAS: All our research points to comic books being read by a wider market than in previous decades. It isn't all geeky kids who can't get girls, you know.

SCCE: Well, that's what I was thinking, but these guys on this website said they had no interest in gorgeous chicks because they'd never be able to get them...

MAS: That's why they need your spot cream!

SCCE: No, they want girls with bits of metal stuck in their faces and big boots.

MAS: No, they don't. They want to fuck Ms Marvel.

SCCE: But they'd never have the courage to speak to Ms Marvel...

MAS: Because of their spots. You see where I'm going with this?

SCEE: I'm not convinced...

MAS: How about we do a special issue of the X-Men where Emma Frost fucks a geeky kid?

SCEE: We'll take the back page, in that case.

Regrettable Juvenilia

13:26 / 22.10.05

Joe Quesada says: "We're very aware of the problem and we're going to rectify it... We’ve heard the fans and we will make sure that their reading experience is the number one priority and not the ads. They will be seeing short and long-term resolutions in the next couple of weeks."

He added: "What I look for in a woman is someone who looks like she might be a bit 'bicurious', but not someone who looks like a proper lesbian, with thick angles and dungarees!"

21:44 / 29.10.05

I opened this week's comics to find a double-page spread of a shiny new silver CAR. This is the first time, as my memory serves, that I have EVER seen a Very Expensive Car ad in a COMIC BOOK. What gives? Is this because more Hollywood-types are reading comics now (and mining them for material)? A car seems like an odd choice to advertise in comics....but then again, maybe car companies are reading the stats that the average comic reader is 25 years old or something like that.

(it's a Honda civic, by the way, and seems to only be appearing in Marvel comics this week, not DC)

22:30 / 29.10.05

The car thing threw me too. I am deeply curious as to what they were thinking when they came up with that one. I mean, I think I speak for most nerds when I say what nerds want are comic books and computer games and... uh... computer games based on comic books. But fancy cars? Eh! Out of my financial reach.

To say nothing of who thought it would be a good idea to give it two of the first three pages of all the fucking books.

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