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God told me to do it, and then ran away...

lord henry strikes back

09:33 / 07.10.05

I'm assuming that this is news on both sides of the great pond, but here is the article from today's Guardian.

Basically, former Palestinian foreign minister, Nabil Shaath, has claimed that Bush told him that he was directly ordered by God to invade both Afghanistan and Iraq. Unsuprisingly the White House is now flatly denying this.

So, do we think he said it? Do we think he believes it? And, whenever it is that you guys get up, how is this being reported in the US?

09:41 / 07.10.05

Well, that's part of the problem: It isn't being reported. I only found out about it through a post on Pharyngula. Myers's comments were legitimate and amusing, as always; my dad asked whether this man (Bush) should merely be removed from office, or whether he should be placed into a straitjacket immediately after.

The separation of state, apparently, is a wishy-washy myth.

10:41 / 07.10.05

Normally, I don't think anyone would be too alarmed at having a Christian in the Oval Office, however Bush really is different. He comes across as rather Old Testament: "And God said unto George, rise up and strike down Saddam whose WMD idolatry is an abomination unto the Lord"...

The relevant part of the Guardian article sums it up:

Andrew Blackstock, director of the British-based Christian Socialist Movement: "If Bush really wants to obey God during his time as president he should start with what is blindingly obvious from the Bible rather than perceived supernatural messages.

"That would lead him to the rather less glamorous business of prioritising the needs of the poor, the downtrodden and the marginalised in his own country and abroad.

"When we see more policies reflecting that, it might be easier to believe he has God on his side. And more likely that God might speak to him."

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

11:48 / 07.10.05

Hey, don't knock it. It nearly worked for Peter Sutcliffe.

And let's not forget, at the commencement of TWAT, W made than teensy faux pas about it being a "crusade"...

11:51 / 07.10.05

He's said it elsewhere, I'm sure. Something along the lines of "God told me to strike Afghanistan, and I did. And God told me to strike in Iraq, and I did." This was in a speech somewhere, possibly?

I'll try to hunt up a transcript.

11:56 / 07.10.05

Maybe all parties should give a mental health screening before putting them up for nomination?

Or maybe they did and liked the results?

11:58 / 07.10.05

First item on this page.

And that was in 2003.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

12:03 / 07.10.05

Thank you, monk. Myself and another guy at work were both adamant we'd already read this story, but everyone seemed sceptical. I was starting to think I was the crazy one.

12:19 / 07.10.05

So er, given that the UK is shoulder to shoulder with the US, does this not mean that Mr Tony also believes that God told George to invade Iraq?

13:01 / 07.10.05

Reminds me of the Paxman interview a couple of years ago when he asked Blair whether he prays with Bush...

Paxman was on form that day, and to be fair Blair was gutsy to face him and an angry mob on the eve of war, although ultimately he came out looking like he had no excuse at all. But it is interesting that Paxman was already being so specific about the Christianity of the two premiers possibly being motivational factors in their invasion of Iraq.

17:54 / 07.10.05

Frightening really. Stoat's got the right idea, I mean, Son of Sam was convinced that a dog told him to do it, that bloke in north London recently was told by a voice to 'kill English people' - what's the difference here, except for the nuclear arsenal and super-powered country and all that?

19:23 / 07.10.05

Um, that God is REAL?????

Sorry, couldn't resist. To add something semi-worthwhile to the thread - as much as I'm loathe to defend Bush, and as much as I do think he's a raving religious fanatic, there's something to the argument that this quote about "God told me" has been translated from English to Arabic and back to English, as pointed out in the Wash Post story. Is there any documentation of the original (English) remark?

*

19:24 / 07.10.05

I'd like to point out that God also apparently told Bush to get the Palestinians a state.

Aside from the horror we unleashed the last time we promised a people we would give them a state, the arrogance of thinking that we can and should "give" someone a state, and the condescension involved in "giving" statehood— does this mean Israel isn't Bu— er, God's Chosen People anymore?

*

19:29 / 07.10.05

So was the dog. That doesn't mean the dog told anyone anything.

Pretty much the same thing in the SF Chronicle.

You'd be hard pressed to get me to believe that Nabil Shaath doesn't speak excellent English.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

19:43 / 07.10.05

(off-topic)- almost, Benny The Ball. David Berkowitz said the dog told him to do it... there's a fair amount of evidence to suggest that the SOS killings were actualy committed by two people, Berkowitz only being one of them. Sorry to be so anal... but I have to use this knowledge somehow, or I'l start thinking my teenage years were wasted.(/off-topic)

I find it hard to think of a way these remarks could have been taken out of context, even what he COULD have been saying that could have been mistranslated so... an absence of White House press statements clarifying (rather than flatly denying) it would seem to lend support to the fact that, yes, this is indeed what was said, language barrier notwithstanding.
It'll be interesting, and probably somewhat frightening, to see what this does to his ratings and public perception.

22:03 / 07.10.05

You'd be hard pressed to get me to believe that Nabil Shaath doesn't speak excellent English.

I wouldn't attempt to. I was drawing off of this point from the Washington Post article -

Even then, there's uncertainty. After all, this is Abu Mazen's account in Arabic of what Bush said in English, written down by a note-taker in Arabic, then back into English.

I think to accurately critique Bush's choice of words here, you have to take into account that he's a bit of an insulated moron (objectively speaking, of course) who wouldn't realize (or care) how his words would translate culturally. Americans toss around the idea of divine inspiration pretty casually - "I just knew that was the puppy God wanted me to take home!" I won't pretend to know the first thing about Muslim culture, but I expect they take the concept of direct orders from God a bit more seriously.

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22:53 / 07.10.05

But Shaath said the Palestinians at the meeting did not think the president was suggesting that God actually spoke to him. "I think it's a manner of speech," Shaath said. "I don't think he meant an actual call from God. He was talking about a commitment. The man wasn't saying there was an angel hovering over his head talking to him.

"We took it as a commitment of the highest level by Mr. Bush to really invest his effort and his determination to get an independent Palestinian state. We welcome this commitment by the president and hope he will fulfill it."

I think if anything Mr Shaath is taking the God stuff less seriously than I would, because I really AM concerned that Bush thinks God, personally, is communicating a divine mandate to him— whether in a booming voice from the heavens or in "what I feel is right in my heart," it's just as dangerous. Shaath does, however, expect Bush to make good, which is exactly on-message.

I think you are maybe not giving these people— the Palestinian diplomats, I mean— enough credit for cultural awareness themselves. They know what he's saying, and they know that by making this a public issue they can drive a wedge between the US and Israeli nationalist types. If Bush doesn't intend to follow through, then we have another issue with the Islamic world. If he pushes for Palestinian statehood, then not only is he breaking that bond with Israel which has often been critiqued here, but he's doing it, he claims, because of a mission from God. And Israel also takes this whole God thing very seriously.

I don't know whether Bush said what was attributed to him, but it's not been the first time he's talked about God giving him messages. That part I don't doubt. I might doubt whether he said God told him to create a Palestinian state, because that seems disadvantageous to US interests, and it would be advantageous for Palestinian authorities to claim those words from him. However, those doubts are from my own reasoning and not the notoriously conservative Washington Post's efforts to find some out for the White House.

03:35 / 09.10.05

The Shrub has been saying this sort of thing since way back. I'm not sure why they're trying to deny it when it's on record in dozens of speeches (usually to fundamentalist audiences rather than foreign diplomats). Just one link, from 2003, discussing some of this stuff: Bush's Messiah Complex in The Progressive.

18:49 / 09.10.05

Shame God didn't tell him to add a few feet to the levees round New Orleans.

Jack The Bodiless

10:23 / 12.10.05

You mean where all the black people live(d)? Now why in heckfire would God do a thing like that?

14:45 / 12.10.05

I think to accurately critique Bush's choice of words here, you have to take into account that he's a bit of an insulated moron (objectively speaking, of course) who wouldn't realize (or care) how his words would translate culturally. Americans toss around the idea of divine inspiration pretty casually - "I just knew that was the puppy God wanted me to take home!" I won't pretend to know the first thing about Muslim culture, but I expect they take the concept of direct orders from God a bit more seriously.

I think the 'choice of words' thing is a fairly good point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Bush has ever said "Yes, I had a vision in which I heard the voice of God and he told me to invade the fuck out of Iraq!". Aren't the quotes from his various speeches rather more along the lines of the common New-Born Xtian habit of justifying all your actions as being "the will of God", "doing right in the eyes of God" or whatever? Rather more vague and rhetorical implications that a direct "GOD TOLD ME TO DO IT"?

Not that that makes things any better of course.

19:07 / 12.10.05

The fact that Dubya's frankly completely insane comments on this subject, which are a matter of public record, and which you'd almost have to go back to the time of Caligula to get anywhere near, is...

Well it's not so good.

If you have someone with the mind of a twelve year old child in charge of one of the most appalling, destructive forces ever known to humanity, by, y'know, miles (11!) what hope is there left?

There really isn't any, is there?

02:13 / 13.10.05

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Bush has ever said "Yes, I had a vision in which I heard the voice of God and he told me to [fill in the blank]

Um, actually, I'm pretty sure it's quite unequivocal that he really does think he has a direct, toll-free line to God. His handlers try to keep it down to a dull roar when he's reading his teleprompter in front of normal audiences, but his messiah complex has slipped out often enough in US reports that I'm not sure anyone debates its existence, here. The only argument is between those who like it and those who think he's nuts.

Probably the most widely read article on this was Ron Suskind's in the NYTimes Magazine, in October 2004. A truly amazing article, well worth reading.

what hope is there left?

Very little, as you say. But what strikes me as even scarier is all the millions who *vote* for this lunatic.

*

03:49 / 13.10.05

Well, you know, it runs in the family.

(Surely the Mystic Warrior Chang has been mentioned here already?)

paranoidwriter waves hello

11:39 / 13.10.05

Slight threadrot: have you seen the latest cover of Private Eye, yet? Excellent, as usual.

14:40 / 13.10.05

Um, actually, I'm pretty sure it's quite unequivocal that he really does think he has a direct, toll-free line to God. His handlers try to keep it down to a dull roar when he's reading his teleprompter in front of normal audiences, but his messiah complex has slipped out often enough

I hope I'm not veering too off topic, but I think this reveals a fundamental misunderstanding, or at least unfamiliarity, with Christian Fundamentalism. I really don't think it's accurate to call this a "messiah complex" or to imply (or state outright) that he's insane... you simply must be more than passingly acquainted with Fundy Christianity to understand what's at work here.

FC's (if I can use shorthand) all believe they have a direct line to God - this is an essential aspect of being saved and connected to the Spirit. If you are a FC and don't have a relationship with God, you're in trouble. It's no more unusual or magical in FC terms than a health-conscious person being "in touch with her body," or non-religious talk of a zeitgeist.

The real argument is not whether you "like it or think it's nuts," the argument is about whether it's appropriate to have a Fundamentalist Christian President. I think it is not, because a FC cannot reconcile having a life that's separate from and uninfluenced by his Faith, and I do believe a secular political leader should set Faith aside in all governmental matters. Of course, it's ethically problematic to bar a certain religion from government leadership, but that's another thread....

14:55 / 13.10.05

It is all veeeeeeeeery tricky-- Bush converted to his conservatism, away from booze, and more seriously into politics after his convers(at)ion with Billy Graham some 20 years ago. This he has stated was the most important moment of his life.

I am only surprised that it has all taken so long to hit the fan, as it were. The Fundamentalism, as has been stated, was always there. It just took a couple of invasions and 'peace plans' for people to realise that it might have worse consequences than had been suspected...

03:04 / 14.10.05

Re messiah complex. I understand that for FCs simply talking to God is not unusual. The Shrub not only talks to God, he has said things that show he believes he has been given power to lead the world into glory. Or something. Anyway, there really is a messianic component, as well as the direct, toll-free line.

It's funny, how information (doesn't) spread. In the US, some two thirds of the people don't realize that 80% of the Iraqis (ie everyone except the Kurds) are desperate for the Americans to leave. Outside the US, although it's pretty clear we're run by kleptocrat bullies, most people don't seem to know that these are the hearing-voices kind of kleptocrat bullies.