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Stardom and Fandom

 
 
miss wonderstarr
09:22 / 07.10.05
It can have passed nobody's attention that the "All-Star Superman" thread recently witnessed a clash of titanic forces. I refer of course to my discussion with Haus about Grant Morrison.

I am grouping comments together in the quotations below, but I hope not taking them too far out of context.

me: Morrison is not just another participant in this democratic arena; he's surely one of the main reasons for this site, and provides the fuel for much of this specific board's discussions. If he hasn't read your recent posts, and misunderstood the one above, I think he has the fair excuse that he was redeveloping the DC Universe.

I wouldn't seek to write that kind of privilege into the FAQ even if I had the power to, but on a personal level, including that of textual interaction on here, I couldn't help but give Grant Morrison a whole reel of slack if I were his target in this case.

It's not just that Morrison writes pretty good comics at the moment. His fiction has been important to a lot of people here since the late 1980s. You can't type the word Barbelith without owing him a debt. He might not have started a ton of threads, but surely he's deposited a great deal of currency in the big bank of your imagination.


Haus: If you want to give people special privileges to say and do whatever they like because they write extremely good comics, then please feel free to do so. You will certainly not be alone in this - the Swingball set is in the shed holding its weekly meeting. However, it is not board policy to do so, nor is it, IMHO, good policy for human interaction.

If you would be happy to be insulted by your inamorata because at least it means she noticed you, that is also fine, but it's not a way I choose to conduct my affairs, as it were. So, Mr. M is free to behave as he wishes, and it will not affect the extremely high regard in which I hold his writing of comic books. Mr M. is at liberty to insult you, and you are at liberty to feel a warm glow at having been insulted. Personally, I think that being a spiritual father or whatever laurel you wish to bestow probably increases one's responsibility to being responsible rather than diminishes it.


-------------

I am an unapologetic fan of Grant Morrison. (I am also interested in the academic study of fan cultures, which puts me sometimes inside, sometimes out and sometimes on the borderline.) As my comment above implies, Morrison's comics have played a significant part in my life since around 1988. I've bought most of his output since the first episode of Zenith. There were times when my monthly calendars seemed like countdowns to the next Doom Patrol. I had photocopied enlargements and hand-copied panels from the comics he wrote decorating more than one student flat. Odd fragments of his dialogue and narration, maybe even half-remembered, have stuck in my mind and come out sometimes as a chorus or commentary: Once I was a little light. Sewing up the door! You're talking to the Hangman's Beautiful Daughter. Come in out of the rain. Whose home alternative? Our home alternative? The shichriron are right behind me!

In Edinburgh, 1990 I think, I went to see the play Red King Rising because Morrison wrote it. I sent off for an obscure single by Morrison's band the Fauves. I got into the Fall because Penny Moon wore their badge in Zenith. Recently I paid to see Morrison talk for an hour at the ICA, and asked him a couple of questions. I felt like I was glowing afterwards from the contact with that creative energy, and was boosted that I'd interacted, even in a small way, with the author of myths that mattered to me.

I even had a picture of Morrison on my bedroom wall once, or rather nine pictures, because it was the speech-to-camera page he drew for an issue of the shortlived magazine Heartbreak Hotel.

So, I am a Morrison fan. I admire Morrison a little more than I admire Brett Anderson, and less than I admire David Bowie, but they're on the same scale -- that is, my fandom is related to him as a person, or as a public persona anyway ("Grant Morrison", whoever he's being at the time) rather than simply being restricted to an appreciation of his work.

But what about you.

Are you a fan of any comic writer or artist, in the way I've described -- that popstar, filmstar fan-mode of seeking out things they touch, wanting to see them in person, reading the books they recommend? Or do you take the more sober line of mostly enjoying their work, being glad they do what they do, but having no interest in them beyond that?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:56 / 07.10.05
I've extremely susceptible to fandom, but not much with comics writers, for reasons I imagine will be fairly intuitively obvious.

The trouble with fandom is that your idols will tend to let you down more often than not. Either through their work (the shine came off Brian Wood for me early on in that godawful kung-fi series he did for Vertigo) or, more interestingly in terms of this discussion, because you're expecting a consistency with your own worldview in areas you arguably ought not to expect. I hadn't really picked up on a lot of Paul Pope's politics, and although I'm not 100% (boom) convinced by Bed Head's analysis, it does trouble me a bit. This isn't a very rational thing, in some ways: why should I care if Pope is not the slightly dilletantish liberal/lefty I assumed he was, so long as he can still draw pretty people smoking fags the way he does?

Equally, the first time I read Grant Morrison saying something about 'political correctness' in an interview I was disappointed - as I was when he said that protestors only go to protests to meet policemen, and talked about how clever and radical it was of Mark Millar to attend a protest in a suit (paraphrasing roughly, so someone can feel free to correct me). And yet, I'm enjoying the comics Morrison is writing now more than ever (fucking Jake Jordan, man!).

I think there's a disconnection between the way you see any creator and their work which it is advisable to develop. Advisable, but arguably often impossible, and possibly less fun at times. It's definitely a disconnection I find pretty much impossible when it comes to musicians. With comics writers and artists, I just about manage.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
10:35 / 07.10.05
It's not as though I uncritically embrace everything passed down from Morrison's hands (I know you didn't say as much -- I'm just elaborating). In fact, I think I've stood out on recent threads for my pedantic picking at Klarion, JLA Confidential, Seaguy and We3. But that too is tied up in my author-reader "relationship" with Morrison. On a semi-conscious level, I expect more from him. I have more investment in his work. I don't feel let down or disappointed in the same way by, say, Ellis, Ennis or Milligan. Maybe that's partly because I wouldn't keep buying their work regardless, as I have with Seven Soldiers despite not being entranced by many of the individual episodes. With Morrison I have this feeling of vague loyalty that he must "repay"... the quotation marks to indicate that I know this is all silly but it's how my inner fanboy sees the situation.
 
 
grant
13:19 / 07.10.05
That obligation stuff is scary.

It's sort of written into the celeb tabloid/papparazzi credo, too: these people, they have embraced fame, therefore they must also embrace the intrusion -- the sacrifice of the personal life for celebrity.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with that, which is part of the reason why I don't do that any more*. But I also don't agree with the George Clooney "I am just an artist and my personal life is my own, you jackals" view, either. Comic fandom/celebrity has always been more informal than the Hollywood variety, in part because of letter columns (you can read the fans just like you read the creators) and in part because it's a smaller world. I think the internet is driving that in two different directions -- more intimacy, bigger world.

Me? I'm sort of fascinated by people who make things I like, but I don't think I lose sight of them as people who do things that people do. Breathe. Sweat. Yawn. Rub their eyes. Think about what to have for dinner.


* (I was never that good at it anyway -- in part because of these doubts, and in part because of an interview I muffed because Buckaroo fucking Naked Lunch Banzai was stalking around in the background. Starstruck, yes, I suppose.)
 
 
Mario
15:15 / 07.10.05
There aren't any writers or artists I follow to quite that extent, although my mad support for Walter Simonson comes close.

(That being said, his covers for Day of Vengeance are not his best work)
 
 
Benny the Ball
17:48 / 07.10.05
I had a thing for Pete Milligan - I was young, alone and at my first and only convention. I saw Milligan at a table, and stood a little distance off, trying to think of something to say to him re: Shade The Changing Man. I finally settled on wandering over telling him I really liked the series and asking if Roger the Ghost was going to return as a character. He replied 'why, do you like him?' to which I froze like an absolute moron, looked at my feet, flushed and said 'don't know' before grabbing a free poster and badge and walking away. It's the only time I have ever had anything like star-struckness happen to me, I'm normally very very relaxed and couldn't care less about clebrities of all kinds, but Pete Milligan turned me stupid.
 
 
sleazenation
20:59 / 07.10.05
As with the rest of humanity, there is plenty of room to be disappointed or impressed by actions and experiences of actions of various comic book creators.
 
 
FinderWolf
00:15 / 08.10.05
>> There aren't any writers or artists I follow to quite that extent, although my mad support for Walter Simonson comes close.

I think Simonson's THOR run is just about PERFECT - his FF is fun but not brilliant. His work over the past 10 years has been OK, but not great. Having said that, I met him at the Virgin Megastore in NYC a few years back (at the official DC promotion event for the first BIZARRO WORLD book) and he was incredibly nice; a real gentleman). It was a very pleasant conversation. So just know that he's one of the good ones.
 
 
*
00:54 / 08.10.05
I get reverse fandom. If I know and like a person, I'm more likely to become a squeeing idiot over their creative labors, if they're any good to begin with.
 
 
Mario
00:54 / 08.10.05
Yeah, that's my basic position. There are certainly more popular artists than Walt. There may be more talented artists than Walt. But I seriously doubt there are _classier_ artists.

He was a regular on the New Gods board back when I ran it...and he NEVER lost his poise, even under situations when it would have been understandable.

Quite honestly, I want to be him when I grow up.
 
 
Mark Parsons
05:59 / 08.10.05
Wal appreciation: saw him at SDCC 2004 at a writer's panel with Louise, Bruce Jones, Chuck **choke** Austin (a nice guy) and Danny Fingeroth. Walt was hilariously amusing, wry and hugely entertaining. I'm loving his ELRIC work with Moorcock, but alas, it seems to have slipped rather disastrously off schedule...

As far a starstuck goes, I was frequently tongue tied until I had a chat with Peter David: very cool, very funny guy. I think that got me over the idea of being starstruck. I know via one remove some (three) famousish Hollywood peeple, yet (prior to my anecdote) I'd still geek out over a con sighting of Clairmont or Gulacy instead of the vastly more mainstream celebrities. You bloom (and geek out) where you're planted...
 
 
Mario
09:42 / 08.10.05
I was at that panel!

Good news...Walt has finished issue #3 of ELRIC, and is working on #4. I'm hoping DC will re-solicit once the whole thing is in the can.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:55 / 08.10.05
What about "anti-fandom"? I'd have to struggle with buying something by Neil Gaiman now, because I don't want feel I'm supporting -- showing a kind of fandom for -- this man who's worn a black leather jacket and shades permanently since 1989, and has some circlejerk namedrop going on with Tori Amos. I wouldn't want to feel I was part of the community that buys Endless porcelain figurines and glossy coffeetable coverart volumes by McKean.

Ironically, I have enjoyed a lot of Gaiman's work in the past. I don't like his whimsicality or coy cleverness, but despite having to grit my teeth some months, I bought the whole run of Sandman as it came out, and still feel fairly positive about his earlier books like Black Orchid and Violent Cases.

What puts me off the 1602 tpb, for instance, is not just the now-notorious "if a DEVIL be one who DARES" syndrome but the idea that I'd be joining the drippy goths who run "The Magian Line" (anag.) fanzine, bought Neverwhere on VHS and call him "Neil".
 
 
Krug
01:42 / 09.10.05
And they say it so lovingly don't they?

Neil. Dripping with goth love.

I'm an admirer of Grant Morrison's many works and look forward to his interviews. I have about two heroes and Grant's one of them. Do I have a deep fanboy love for him? I'm not sure, I'm not dying to know more about him or religiously follow his comics. I didn't think very highly of Vimanarama and the Seven Soldiers stuff hasn't been for me. That said, anything with GM's name on it, I will check out.

Grant Morrison's comics played a bigger part in my life. If it weren't for Best Man Fall, I'd still too afraid to leave religion (Islam) behind and continue being intellectually dishonest, be an apologist for what I have "faith" in etc etc. Parts of Invisibles and St. Swithin's Day made me cry and parts of his writing are unforgettable. Some of the lines he's written are carved in my brain and stories like St. Swithin's Day seem to have infinite potency as far as I'm concerned. I've only really given his comics to friends who dont read comics. And I have a deep love for his fictions.

Yes I confess I use his first name sometimes on the internet (in real life I've never said it) but the person he is has nothing to do with my enjoyment of the work. Unless he personally insulted me or turned into John Byrne I very much doubt anything will change. Since I don't see that happening, I'm content with hearing his thoughts and letting his imagination speak to mine. It's "Telepathy", and when he's on the money, I have a wonderful week and the work stays with me and perhaps will forever. That's what I want out of Grant Morrison, to continue writing. Whether it's comics or prose.

I'm not a fanboy I think, I hate fanboys and am very critical of his works when I don't like them unlike fanboys.

That said, when is that biography out anyway?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:55 / 09.10.05
More on this at a later point, but I'd like to quote Deva from about three years ago as of interest here:


Really I just popped in because I'm reading a book called Discourse Networks at the moment & it's describing the period ca. 1800 as a major epistemic shift. Talking about the production of men-as-authors and women-as-readers, and the way language was seen as the "pure transport" of signifieds from the author's spirit to the reader's spirit and... anyway, it's all very interesting, but what was relevant to this thread was the way in which it describes the relation of the feminine reader to the masculine author. It made me think of how "fandom" is usually theorized as a female phenomenon, and I wondered whether there was some genderedness in the denigration/ disqualification of a reader's erotic attachment to an author?


Here are some quotes. Bettina Brentano has been advised by her brother to read Goethe & keep notes of her reading.

Bettina Brentano took the book to bed like a beloved and discovered in the child sweetheart of the hero her own likeness. Indeed, her ostensibly so passive sensibility was bold enough to make its way from the book to its author. Bettina took her brother's advice all too literally, for not only did she write down her feelings during or after her reading, she sent her notes as letters to Weimar. The result was Goethe's Correspondence with a Young Girl*.

To write to an author and tell him that, first, he loves the women that his fictional heroes love, and second, that the undersigned is very much like these women - such writing up of one's own reading takes the feminine reading function to an extreme. All the transcendenal signifieds of Poetry suddenly acquire referents: Woman becomes a woman, the hero becomes the author, and the author becomes a man. Thus a strict application of the new hermeneutics can only lead to escalating love.

...

Johann Adam Bergk
[author of The Art of Reading, Including Information on Books and Authors, 1799] comes right out and asks "not only that we love the books, but that we extend our love to the person of the author as well."


...

As Dorothea Schlegel said of November 14, 1799, the day of her first encounter with Goethe: "To know that this god was so visible, in human form, near to me, and was directly concerned with me, that was a great, everlasting moment!" Rahel Varnhagen said of August 20, 1815, the day of her second encounter with Goethe: "My knees, my limbs trembled for more than half an hour. And I thanked God, I said it out loud to his evening sun like someone gone mad... my own dear eyes saw him, I love them!"
 
 
miss wonderstarr
10:04 / 09.10.05
Briefly, I think there's something in that: and that it's linked to the current colloquial expression being "gay for" someone, eg. "I'm gay for Grant Morrison". It does seem to imply a "feminine" passivity, with the reader dominated by and happily worshipping the sometimes harsh, sometimes generous master; lapping up his scraps, content with whatever he deigns to give you.

(I don't mean this as a comment on what real homosexuality is about, but what seems to be suggested in the expression "gay for". In fact, rather than homosexuality, perhaps the phrase suggests masochism.)
 
 
Ganesh
10:10 / 09.10.05
Or, at least, submissiveness.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
10:43 / 09.10.05
Yes -- it all seems based around the traditional notion that the consumer/reader is passive and the producer/author is active. So, from a straight male perspective (traditionally active, dominant) this passive reading position, where you submissively accept and are grateful for what the author hands down, could be denigrated as homosexual or feminine. Perhaps it's also relevant that the author is traditionally male.

I suppose popular fan culture is also associated with femininity: the screaming teenage girls of Beatlemania, and the predominantly female writers of slash fiction. Male fandom is popularly portrayed (eg. in The 40 Year-Old Virgin) as sexually stunted, infantile, lacking in virility.

But then to be a male fan of a male performer, artist or writer inevitably does involve some hint of homoeroticism, doesn't it? Perhaps that's not the right word: but a kind of crush. As a straight-identifying fellow, I do feel a form of love and attraction for stars like David Bowie. At times, reading his work, I probably feel a "gush" of love for Morrison, as author. It doesn't go so far as enjoying looking at photos of him, but is there some element of romantic attachment when you're a male fan of a male artist, and what's the appropriate word for that?
 
 
sleazenation
12:03 / 09.10.05
This is all beginning to sound very 'Dave Sim' with all that is productive, creative and generative being cast as male and all that is associated with consuming and appreciating being cast as feminine. I just hope we are not going to arrive at the need for men to retain the purity of their essence from women during the physical act of love...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:15 / 09.10.05
I think receivers of popular culture are often cast as feminine -- though there's an arbitrary (?) distinction between those fans and sports fans, who somehow maintain their traditional, dominant masculinity despite admiring other men for their physical prowess. Being an "active" fan (writing stories, making costumes, going to conventions) doesn't seem to help make the pop culture consumer more "masculine".

I'm talking about what I see as common stereotypes, of course, not what I think myself.
 
 
sleazenation
13:11 / 09.10.05
In regards to sports fandom and its performed masculinity, I recall reading an interesting essay whose author currently escapes me entitled 'the anus and its goalposts'. The Essay did a pretty good job of queering unexamined responses to team allegences and following major organized team sports...
 
 
grant
02:13 / 10.10.05
The shirtlessness and the body paint hadn't done a good enough job of that beforehand?
 
 
eddie thirteen
00:26 / 11.10.05
As a fan, I'm kind of a sponge -- I like to read interviews with writers in which they talk about process and inspiration, mostly because I'm trying to steal their life-forces and write good stuff myself, psychic vampire codex stylee. And, because I'm self-centered, I only care about interviews with, for lack of a better term, storytellers: writers, film directors, etc. Interviews with actors tend to be worthless foma about which ingenue Tom Cruise is using for a beard this week and the like, and I couldn't care less. I went through a fairly starstruck period in my teens and twenties, but at some point I just kinda got over it. Celebrity culture seems like bread and circuses to me, not to sound too pretentious/above it all. Much as I like Morrison's work, I think I've lived his biography -- Pale White Guy Sits in a Room and Writes Shit for Hours and Hours and Hours -- and can probably skip it pretty safely. Really, it's just not that interesting a story. And that's a "celebrity" whose output is actually interesting to me; I can't begin to imagine what's so boundlessly fascinating about someone like, I dunno, Ashlee Simpson. Who the fuck cares?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:01 / 11.10.05
I think I've lived his biography -- Pale White Guy Sits in a Room and Writes Shit for Hours and Hours and Hours -- and can probably skip it pretty safely.

Perhaps I'm swallowing his own myth, but doesn't he claim he lived something like King Mob during the writing of Invisibles? That he, at least, did travel the world experimenting with hallucinogenic drugs, and wrote some of the trancey magic sequences based on his own visions? I know Morrison has deliberately created personae, most notably when he inserted himself in Animal Man, but I assumed there was truth in some of his claims to be a travelling magician.
 
 
eddie thirteen
20:00 / 11.10.05
I imagine most of that is true, albeit probably somewhat embroidered. Even so, and this isn't to take anything away from the Legend of Grant, but I mean, this is someone who's written *how* many hundreds of comics in the last twenty years or so? We have to be talking about fairly isolated incidents of world travel. There's just no way this was ever more than a series of extended vacations; there isn't that much coke on the planet. So, yeah, I'm sure that Grant Morrison has lived a more exciting life than I have, and my comment was probably more appropriate to, say, the life story of Mark Waid, but the lion's share of this man's life has just gotta be him slaving over a computer.
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
22:21 / 11.10.05
They're just people.

Really - they're only people.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:02 / 12.10.05
Are you not a fan of anyone then, Adam Kadmon. I don't think fandom involves a total naive ignorance; it might involve a pleasurable suspension of the awareness that, say, Brad Pitt might be squeezing a spot or sitting on the pot right now (was it Swift who had that poem about the disillusionment in finding one's idol has bodily functions, "Celia shits") but I don't think any fan actually believes their love-object is beyond human.
 
 
Triplets
07:34 / 12.10.05
I don't. I've not been struck by fandom at any point in my life, and have never really looked up to anyone (not to say I place myself above others).

I see famous actors as just people who play characters in movies I enjoy.

Fandom, to be honest, confuses me.
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
21:09 / 12.10.05
Not really, Kovacs. I'm a huge fan of some people's work, and there are even a few people I think seem like nice people too. But they're just people, I don't idolise them.

I did for a while when I was much younger, and then I thought about it and stopped.

But hey, I'm not judging anyone.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
14:27 / 14.10.05
I shy away from 'fan' encounters - I hate the lack of equality in the situation, and you're lucky if you can progress beyond the 'gush'. I accidentally met Hewlett & Martin when I was smaller, and they wer nice to me (and quite pissed I think). I hadn't actually planned to queue up, but a nice man in Forbidden planet shoved me to the front, and my signed 'Hewligan's haircut' remains a treasured item.
However meeting my heroes on a more professional (for want of a better word) level, has been more rewarding. I recently attended a meeting for cartoonists in the Brighton and Sussex area, which was precided over by David 'V' Lloyd. He was a total gent, got the drinks in, and gave me loads of useful advice, whilst being complimentary about my work. Indeed it only clicked about 10 minutes into the meeting that it was that David Lloyd. And i managed not to mention V for Vendetta once. It was a far more satisfying encounter, bolstered by the fact that an artistic legend was more interested in my (and everyone else's) work more than bigging himself up.
Oh yeah - got pissed with Glenn Fabry once and he told me, Fraely Boyce and Gumbitch loads of scurrilous industry gossip. Which was ace.
 
 
folded
11:01 / 17.10.05
Even now, I'll still read the odd interview that a creator-type gives, hoping that they'll share a little tip or technique I might find useful or suggest an interesting idea to think about or something good to read or listen to etc. I have little (to no) interest in their personal lives, politics and so forth.

As I've gotten older my stance has probably morphed a great deal: from uncritical acceptance (and fusion of the work and the artist) to disillusionment (eg. creator X, who I'd up until now seen as some kind of divine creative force is actually a person- ie. talks sh*t, gets stuff wrong, can be ignorant, has the odd tanty, sometimes is a prick etc.), to pretty much treating the interviews etc. as trashy promotional gossip to be skimmed quickly for interesting stuff and then forgotten.

The creative work for me has gradually become a whole separate matter from the creator themselves. I won't stop buying a creator's work just because they might have feet of clay. Its inevitable that they will, being human after all.

That said, I now have even more respect for those creators who, even in this day and age, can manage to keep relatively quiet on a personal level and speak chiefly through their work alone.
 
  
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