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Christo-paganism

 
 
Unconditional Love
23:26 / 01.10.05
Well, the qliphoth thread, kabbalah and the thoth tarot have aroused my intrest in this area again. I have on and off for the last 14yrs dipped in and out of this subject area since i first encountered magick by crowley back in my 20's, like thelema i find myself drawn to it and repulsed by it at the sametime, its the christian elements i find hard to cope with due to my associations with christianity in secondary school.

If i remember correctly as a child i had a wonderful love of singing hymns, i am not sure wether it was religous in any sense, but more the atmosphere of being with other children all joined in unison singing.

By the time of secondary school, studying religous education, being forbidden to hand in a project on satanism for the exam (mostly a ripped off commentary from richard cavendishes the black arts), but being strangley liked by my r.e teacher,he especially loved me reading from the bible. well anyway what with the usual heavy metal teenage rebellion my relationship with christian spirtuality collapsed.

By 18 or 19 i was loving christian death and being a goth and pretty much from then on in too my late 20s i was i guess anti christian, yet still attracted and repulsed at the sametime.

After a near death experience in 2000, that changed completely, some of my first spiritual reading and experiences come from studying gnosticism to some degree, mainly from the gnostic library online and introductory books like elaine pagels gnostic gospels. Something that ran through this was an intrest in angels and nephilim, which had crossed over from the person that died in 2000.
Also a fascination with serpents which led me to the ophites.

Ive had intermittent contact since then through the literature of timothy freke and personal workings with st michael within protective ritual based work.

I am intrested in beginning work in this area again with focus on feminine figures within judaeo/christainty (preferably those that retain there sexuality) and the larger area of meso/egyptian paganism as my own reading suggests that there are connections between the two areas.

I am also intrested in discussing it as a phenomena and also reactions to christian paganism.

Wiccauk takes sides with Christo/Pagan interfaith missionaries and bans dissenters - without rhyme or reason!


It seems some people regard the notion as a threat.

PAN
 
 
All Acting Regiment
23:46 / 01.10.05
Well, with this sort of thing, aren't you working with Christian ideas in a very different way to the prescriptive method the school RE lessons used? As in, realising that a lot of it is symbolism, and that you're using it as such?

I bet if we'd all been brought up to worship Thoth at Thoth schools and if Bush was part of the born-again Thoth movement, we'd all be embracing Christianity (for example) as a subcultural/anti-authority beleif system- it's not the flavour of the pudding that's important: there's many, and they're all tasty in ther own way. The important matter is whether you're being force-fed or eating at your own leisure (or of course, not eating at all if that suits you- it certainly suits me).
 
 
*
00:37 / 02.10.05
I spent much of my "rebellious youth" being pretty anti-Christian. Lately, though, I find myself defending Christians. That probably started when I found out that a friend of mine from high school, whose long-term partner is a pagan priest, is going to seminary to become a MCC minister. He took me to a service which focused on the idea that Jesus made mistakes, and later realized them and corrected them. I took communion with them because the minister emphasized that anyone could take communion no matter their beliefs, and so I didn't feel like I would be intruding. I felt like this was a community whose beliefs were perfectly compatible with mine, and they were still Christian. So I had to stop acting as if Christians were the "Them" who want to keep me and my community (the queers, the polytheists, the majcky people) down. I may even join MCC at some point, without having to feel like I have to change my beliefs in order to be part of that community.

This reminds me of the Quantum Jesus Project, esp. Jesus as Magus.

(Oh, and Legba, your pudding analogy is sweet.)
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:49 / 02.10.05
Well legba you certainly have a good point. The problem i find is recociling the two differing experiences of christianity, reeducating the former with the newer influx of information and experience. I have given up on being anti christian, but occasionally that still rears its ugly head, and there i am for a few days in teenage goth mode.

What i am aimimg at is integrating all the persona parts into a whole, something that contains the newer revelations, the older sense of joy and the critical eye that questions the faith til all that remains is the faith.

When i am at my lowest of low, suicidal etc, i call on god to give me strenght, and viola i am back and fighting. i have no idea how that works, but a part of myself characterises god as male and totally forgiving, and thats the biggest difficulty for me, my relationship to male human authority figures, including my own father doesnt tally to that at all, i either find myself in competition with them, trying to destroy them or kill them.

Whats even more annoying is some people think i am a natural patriarch. you cant imagine how much this frustrates me.

Also i love my body, playing with it, feeding it, grooming it, exercising it. Many of the christian systems chastise the body and mortify it. I cant relate to that, which is why to an extent thelema is attractive.

Its so bloody confusing, i feel really close to god, but want to kill him, i love women intensely to the point of reverential ectasy, yet i am scared of that power over me.
What a fucking nightmare.

Maybe its best not to eat at all as you say, but with so many different and well flavoured meals i cant resist.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:43 / 02.10.05
What i am thinking is of getting singing lessons, finding hymns to asherah/shekhina, and finding a girlfriend who is merciful and strong,and worshipping her by singing too her, knowing she is the embodyment of eternity.

sounds like a plan.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:02 / 02.10.05
learning to call on her name rather than gods.
 
 
ORA ORA ORA ORAAAA!!
13:40 / 02.10.05
centering your life/magical practice around one person sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Surely making them the cornerstone (or center-stone, to avoid mixing up my spatial analogies) of your magic, your being you call to at the lowest of low ebbs, is at least as serious a commitment as marriage? And look how well most of them end up...

Worshipping the embodiment of the devine feminine is probably a good idea, but what would be the magical results if the lady you worshipped rejected you in your earthly relationship? Would your spiritual connection to the feminine undergo the same severing? [/probably rot]
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:54 / 02.10.05
Ummm... "What ze said," essentially. Trying to put a human being on a divine pedastal on anything other than a temporary basis (say, for the purpose of a particular working) is going to end in tears.

Nobody human is strong all the time. Nobody human is merciful all the time. Goodness knows we may want to be, but it just doesn't work like that. How would you deal if your strong feminine Goddess incarnate suffered some calamity--lost someone she loved, for example, or became gravely ill? What if she came to need your support, your strength, perhaps indefinately? Would you then abandon the relationship?

If you want a Goddess rather than a God, mate, that's great--go and worship a Goddess. Plenty to choose from. If you want a loving partener, that's great too--just don't ask her to be a deity coz that's not playing fair.
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:08 / 02.10.05
your both absolutely right, and it highlights to me why most of my previous relationships failed in one respect or another. its not a very realistic approach is it, and its a pretty heavy trip to lay on a partner.

Plenty of goddesses to choose from, in both respects.

I really do need to make my vision more earthy and realistic. Now i dont want to totally abandon the romantic dreamer, or he will start up his oh woe is me routine, but i do just need to be more two feet on the ground. chi gung helps and work helps, but still i am floating on clouds most of the time.

Research on christo/meso/egyptian goddesses time. thanks for the replys.
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:14 / 03.10.05
Okay time to make this thread more than about my unrealistic attitudes and general narcissitic tendencies.(i will have plenty of oppertunity to indulge those another time)

Babylonian Magick

canaanite pathways

Dance of the seven veils

Well i havent read them all yet, but the canaanite tradition seems really intresting, and the seven veils site is immediately useful as its something ive been woking with in relation to the hexagram.

There seems to be a bunch of research about the goddess anat by academics so thats a candidate, but i dont feel immediately drawn to her, so perhaps not. Anybody else work in this area that could perhaps give me pointers as to wether this is a place i could work with, i feel drawn to it, but also at the sametime very much to kabbalah, aryeh kaplans work, that area.
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:10 / 05.10.05
Something i am coming across in my hunting and foraging about ashera is this, as the wife of yahweh, she was represented as a wooden pole at the altar, which may have its origins as a tree. Now ive seen this comment,following in two places, ashera is the tree of life.

So could it be that the tree of life as a whole a map of creation is considered feminine in nature, that if yahweh is transcendent then he could be part of no map, no tree of life, no eden so to speak, all of this would then become aspects of ashera. its just specualtion at the moment.

Ashera
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:35 / 05.10.05
As the Jews dispersed further, sightings occurred in Italy, Spain, Germany, Poland, Russia - in every town where Jews lived. Shekhina comforted the sick, the poor, the suffering, and had a particular concern for repentant sinners "These are accepted by the Shekhina as if they were righteous and pious persons who never sinned.

They are carried aloft and seated next to the Shekhina...he whose heart is broken and whose spirit is low, and whose mouth rarely utters a word, the Shekhina walks with him every day...".

The paradox of dwelling in one place, and being in various places and with many people at the same time, had to be resolved. The Talmud reconciled the two ideas beautifully in a well-known anecdote. "The Emperor said to Raban Gamaliel: ?You say that wherever ten men are assembled, the Shekhina dwells among them.

As time went by, her position strengthened.

An interesting Medieval anecdote shows the Shekhina as a total separate entity, in her most important role - interceding on behalf of her children.

"The Shekhina comes to the defense of sinful Israel by saying first to Israel: 'Be not a witness against thy neighbor without a cause' and then thereafter saying to God: 'Say not: I will do to him as he hath done to me..' "

This is obviously a conversation taking place among three distinct entities - Israel, God, and the Shekhina.

Like any good mother, she could punish too.

When she behaved violently, her character came closer to her powerful aspect of the great Asherah, Yahweh's Canaanite Consort.

She descended to Earth to punish Adam, Eve, and the Serpent when they sinned at the Garden of Eden.

She confused the builders of the Tower of Babel.

She drowned the Egyptians at the Red Sea crossing during Exodus.

When needed, she even killed righteous people. Since the beginning of time, six people - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Aaron, and Miriam -- could not be taken by the Angel of Death because of their perfect purity.

Someone had to bring their souls to Heaven, and only Shekhina could do that. By kissing them, she released their souls from bondage to this world.

In a particularly touching story, after kissing and releasing Moses' soul, she carried his body for a long distance on her wings, to his secret grave.

This myth connects Shekhina to another ancient goddess, Anath.
 
 
grant
14:09 / 05.10.05
You run into Simon Magus and the Gnostics yet?

Simon Magus is a shady disciple who shows up in the Book of Acts as a Samaritan sorceror saying, OK, I'll believe in your new faith. He studies with the teachers, but then starts wanting to turn a profit from the miracles he can perform, so they boot him out of the church. There's an old sin, simony, that's named for him -- using a church position for personal gain.


One Christian view of Simon Magus:
Simon was the Samaritan sorcerer who professed conversion to Christianity and sought to buy an apostleship. The Bible records this historic event in Acts 8:9-24.

In spite of Peter's stinging rebuke (verses 20-23), tradition and various legends say Simon presented himself as a Christian apostle, particularly in Rome. He invented a new religion by blending his own version of the doctrine of grace with elements of the old Babylonian mysteries and attaching Christ's name to it.


That site places his heretical beliefs as the origin of Gnosticism, but contemporary scholars believe many elements of that belief-complex (it's too vague to be a single faith) are older than Simon's career, and some go waaaaay back. And aren't really Babylonian.

Here's an older account from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Excerpts...
For when the Apostles Peter and John came to Samaria to bestow on the believers baptized by Philip the outpouring of the Spirit which was accompanied by miraculous manifestations, Simon offered them money, desiring them to grant him what he regarded as magical power, so that he also by the laying on of hands could bestow the Holy Ghost, and thereby produce such miraculous results. Full of indignation at such an offer Peter rebuked him sharply, exhorted him to penance and conversion and warned him of the wickedness of his conduct. Under the influence of Peter's rebuke Simon begged the Apostles to pray for him (Acts, viii, 9-29). However, according to the unanimous report of the authorities of the second century, he persisted in his false views. The ecclesiastical writers of the early Church universally represent him as the first heretic, the "Father of Heresies".

Simon is not mentioned again in the writings of the New Testament.

...

St. Justin of Rome describes Simon as a man who, at the instigation of demons, claimed to be a god. Justin says further that Simon came to Rome during the reign of the Emperor Claudius and by his magic arts won many followers so that these erected on the island in the Tiber a statue to him as a divinity with the inscription "Simon the Holy God". The statue, however, that Justin took for one dedicated to Simon was undoubtedly one of the old Sabine divinity Semo Sancus.

...

Simon plays an important part in the "Pseudo-Clementines". He appears here as the chief antagonist of the apostle Peter, by whom he is everywhere followed and opposed. The alleged magical arts of the magician and Peter's efforts against him are described in a way that is absolutely imaginary. The entire account lacks all historical basis.
(If you're unfamiliar with the Cath. Enc.'s style, this kind of language is almost always an invitation to read further to figure out what the *other side* really said.)

...

Still his doctrine seems to have been a heathen Gnosticism, in which he proclaimed himself as the Standing One (estos), the principal emanation of the Deity and the Redeemer. According to Irenaeus he claimed to have appeared in Samaria as the Father, in Judea as the Son, and among the heathen as the Holy Ghost, a manifestation of the Eternal. He asserted that Helena, who went about with him, was the first conception of the Deity, the mother of all, by whom the Deity had created the angels and the aeons. The cosmic forces had cast her into corporeal bonds, from which she was released by Simon as the great power. In morals Simon was probably Antinomian, an enemy of Old Testament law. His magical arts were continued by his disciples; these led unbridled, licentious lives, in accordance with the principles which they had learned from their master. At any rate they called themselves Simonians, giving Simon Magus as their founder.


That last bit sounds a lot like what you've been talking about.
 
 
Quantum
14:30 / 05.10.05
My friend dispensed forgiveness to someone when the Pope died recently, reasoning that False Absolution is MORE of a sin when there's no Pope. He's determined to go down for Simony.
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
01:30 / 07.10.05
I really do need to make my vision more earthy and realistic.

Over and out - maybe if you stop envisioning what things are going to be like beforehand, and just experience them when they happen, you won't be disappointed so often.

This is a subject I'm really interested in, but I'm confused as to what this thread is really about. Paganism is pretty much a term that Christians coined to refer to any religion other than themselves, or can mean a polytheistic religion or even no religion at all. Do you mean modern Gardenerian paganism?

And are we only talking about specific female deities within that, or a more general discussion?
 
 
Unconditional Love
09:41 / 07.10.05
Well its essentially about pre christian influences on christianity, gnosticism and related areas, christo paganism which is a name given to the emerging practitioners that have contact with the literature that that discusses christianities pagan origins, and the many diverse esoteric forms of christianity that have exsisted from late antiquity.

Forget the personal stuff, thats me being side tracked.

So far for me this also includes, babylonian culture, sumerian culture, egyptology,canaanite paganism and the other culturals ive yet to explore in relation to christianities pagan origins.
 
  
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