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We're swinging at England - ENG-ER-LAND - recent national team developments

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:27 / 08.09.05
In the last three games, we've seen England score twice, concede five goals and lose two out of three matches. The only win, against a Welsh side which is severely weakened from its highs under Mark Hughes, and that with an uncovincing performance.

So, what's up with England? Is Eriksson's insistence on finding a formation that accommodates Lampard, Gerrard and Beckham leaving a completely toothless midfield and hamstringing England's ability to take the ball and counterattack? The "quarterback" role Beckham was given - in effect a sweeper playing in front of the back four - seemed ineffectual against Wales, and the 4-3-3 experiment - apparently dealing with Beckham's tendency to drift inside and become ineffectual as a right-winger by putting Shaun Wright-Phillips into a more forward role - seems to have gone pretty badly.

I've seen formations built around a player before, but relatively rarely have I seen formations built around a player's tactical failing. Recent results may demonstrate why.

So, what's the solution? It's a brave man who drops any one of the "best midfield in the world (and Joe Cole)", but how can you fit them all into a formation that actually works? Can you persude Lampard or Gerrard to stay back, and if so will they be any cop? Ou sount les box-to-box midfielders d'antan? And when exactly did playing Joe Cole on the right and Gerrard on the left make footballin' magic?
 
 
sleazenation
08:36 / 08.09.05
Well, at least Northern Ireland won't be relying on the increasingly tired chant of 'where were you in 1927*' now...

* I believe this was the last, and perhaps only, time NI beat England at football...
 
 
Supaglue
08:48 / 08.09.05
Think you've hit the nail on the head Haus. Why, after through all of Eriksson's reign the team was 4-4-2, or a variation thereof, has he suddenly switched at a crucial time in qualifiers to a formation the team can't play and no-one appears tlo knwo their role.

And like you say, Beckham (who's form compared to say, in the Greece game a few years back has plummeted) can't play in the middle as well as he does out wide, and certainly not if it requires defensive duties.


It's a fudge. It's to be able to play Beckham and more in-form players like Shaun Wright-Phillips in the same team and it wont work. Why play only one striker against a team that hadn't won in four years?! And why play a lone striker who's temperemant is not geared to thankless ruinning? And why we're at it, when you're one down to what is in effect a second tier team, do you take off one of teh highest goalscoring midfielders in teh world (Lampard) and replace him with the, er, 'defensive' (or more accurately 'utility') Owen Heargreaves? Bizarre.

Anyway, rant over. The answer to me, seems to be to return to a traditional formation and generate competition for places. Dropping people like Beckham and Owen would be a wake up call and ensure no-one has a guaranteed place. More store should be put on the younger strikers - Defoe and Rooney working together, and the middle needs a defined holding man - Gerrard being the most obvious choice, although after that, I think we're down to the elephant man, Phil Neville. Right. Off to play Champ Manager now, to prove it.....
 
 
Jub
09:04 / 08.09.05
What a poor game. Can't really blame Sven to be fair, as this calibre of players should be able to beat N.Ireland whatever positions the players are in.

I did like the fact there was only one National Anthem though - I believe that's the first time I've ever seen everyone singing the same one!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:07 / 08.09.05
I believe this was the last, and perhaps only, time NI beat England at football...


Last time at home. NI beat England away in 1972, with Pat Jennings unbeatable in goal.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:22 / 08.09.05
Can't really blame Sven to be fair, as this calibre of players should be able to beat N.Ireland whatever positions the players are in.

You see, I don't think this is true, necessarily. You can't blame SGE alone, certainly, but his job is to create the conditions in which the England players can appply their considerable talents, and so if that is not happening he takes some responsibility. When Machester United were beaten 6-3 at Southampton despite the indubitable superiority of their players, it was necessary at least to consider whether Ferguson's tactics had played some part in that.
 
 
Supaglue
09:32 / 08.09.05
When Machester United were beaten 6-3 at Southampton despite the indubitable superiority of their players, it was necessary at least to consider whether Ferguson's tactics had played some part in that.

...c'mon Haus, we all know it was those grey strips....
 
 
---
09:39 / 08.09.05
I missed this. I don't really follow football too much now, but I sat and watched the match against Wales in the pub and was glad we won.

This though, I forgot all about it until I saw this thread. I'm pretty speechless really. What was the formation? 3-5-2?
 
 
The Falcon
14:38 / 10.09.05
Well, I didn't watch the games because there were some much better ones involving a team in blue, who may yet - despite a disastrous opening - scrape their way to Deutschland.

But I think both games were 4-5-1/4-3-3, with a v-midfield, using Beckham at the base (as a 'quarterback'(?!)) and Rooney and Wright-Phillips (v. NI) and Cole and the latter in loose-ish attacking roles coming off the wing?

I think this is because David Beckham is determined to prove himself a cultured central-midfielder, something he did get good press, post-Madrid move, for. Frankly, I think he should either play wide, given his major attribute remains his ability to cross (which is like being a quaterback in an actually dangerous area,) or be dropped altogether in favour of little Shaun, who's quite happy to play on the right. Either that or El Capitan must stand for either Lamps or Gerrard (I'd prolly opt the latter) in a four-man midfield. Primarily because it makes little sense to me to not utilise both Owen and Rooney as centre forwards, which is entirely what they both are. Even dropping Rooney back a bit'd be helpful (in a 4-4-1-1,) given his bullet like motion.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:21 / 26.09.05
Well, it looks from the last weekend of Premiership games as if both Lampard and Gerrard are rediscoverin form and fitness. So, question: can this 4-3-3 nonsense be made to work? And if so, can it work if Beckham has to be shoehorned in? Imagine a fit Michael Carrick playing in front of the defenders, say, with Lampard and Gerrard advanced beyond that but behind Rooney, Owen and Wright-Phillips? Is that just Championship Manager tactics?
 
 
astrojax69
21:53 / 06.10.05
beckham out wide with lampard conrtolling the play, owen and smith up front and terry and sol campbell in the middle of defence. should be enough? austria 0 england 3?

and swiss 1 - french 1, while we're at tipping... and australia 3 jamaica 1.
 
 
The Falcon
23:59 / 06.10.05
Smith doesn't even play up front for his club anymore. I think it may well be Crouch, given that everyone's apparently assumed Defoe can't play beside Owen.

Can I talk about how excited I am at the prospect of Scotland bouncing Norway the fuck out and completing an - possibly the - amazing comeback here, or ought I start a new thread entitled "I - I - I - I've got it - World cup Fever (though possibly only for the next six days)" which can then be utilised over next Summer?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:11 / 07.10.05
That leaves a question over the holding midfielder and the left side of midfield - 4-4-2, yes? And I don't really rate Smith - or rather, I don't see Smith as necessarily a better bet than Owen or Rooney, especially if he's being played in midfield by his club...
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
09:26 / 07.10.05
Stating the obvious here, but I think it should be said in this thread - SGE has always picked what should, on paper, be the 11 best players, then tried to fit them into some seblance of a formation. Also, he's far, far too close to Beckham, who should never captain any team. Terry or Gerrard would be far more effective captains. Can anyone tell me, btw - has SGE ever not played Beckham, when available?
As to Gerrard - while he's certainly one of England's, if not the world's, best midfielders, the crisis at Liverpool has brought out the worst in him at international level. He feels he need to do it all, and just spends the game running around the pitch, trying to hog the ball, taking long-range shots, attempting spectacular passes. He doesn't have to worry about defense too much as, like Lampard at Chelsea, there's always a more defensively-minded midfielder there to cover - one or sometimes two of Alonso, Hamann or Sissoko. If that's the position Liverpool need him in, then good for them; but bad for England.
And now, the defense - specifically centre-halves, although there is something of a crisis at full-back, with Neville, Cole and Bridge all out. The problem at centre-half, is that three of the best - Carragher, Campbell and Terry - are all too similar to be really effective together. None of them are two pacy, they all rely on reading the game, and getting the tackle in at the right place and time. Rio is a more athletic type who has the speed to recover if he makes a mistake - but really, he's a bit dim. I dunno much about Spurs' Dawson and King, perhaps one of them could be a like-for-like replacement for Rio?
So, that's my two cents. God, I love talking about football...
 
 
The Falcon
11:07 / 07.10.05
No, Sven has never dropped his captain. You're right though, players with experience of captaining their clubs might be better suited to doing so for their nation; like Gerrard, Lampard and Terry - who'd actually be my choice, if I were England manager, but I'm of the belief that flair players and goalies are bad choices for captaincy nad that it should go to the more grizzled members of the team.

starting the other thread now.
 
 
The Falcon
15:12 / 08.10.05
Or, alternatively, just not fucking bothering.
 
 
Benny the Ball
18:20 / 08.10.05
Well that was just painful. There are so many questions raised by that match - yes, Beckham was unlucky to be booked, twice (the second one, yeah he clipped the man accidently, but the man threw his standing leg up, the first one, pure dramatics from the Austrian brought the booking). But before that he was making Young look bad because he couldn't stay in position to allow for an outlet, so Young was constantly forced to square or play back - when he finally realised that he was being a bit left out on the right, he managed to pick up his own game and get some decent runs and crosses going. Next up, what the hell is Crouch about. Where is the supposed good touch for a big man? Why does he respond roughly three seconds after everyone else? The main problem, back to Sven's ineptitude as a tactician - why take off the best player on the field? Cole was having a great game, replacing him for King was stupid. With Beckham off no-one was around to cross the ball to Crouch, except for Cole on the left, who was more effective on the floor, so why keep Crouch on - his job is done, surely? King almost always comes across as mature and capable for England, so understandable to bring him on, but for Cole? Why? And then, to compound issues, why take off Owen and keep Crouch on? What was the thinking there? And to bring on Richardson in his place? The man is just doing what Cole was doing well enough, but less effectively, plus with Owen off, who's there for Crouch to flick on to? Young did well, Cole did excellently, Gerrard had a couple of moments, but apart from that a completely un-inspiring afair, and something that doesn't fill me with confidence for Wednesday.
 
 
The Falcon
02:39 / 09.10.05
Doesn't matter, yez're qualified anyway in one of the best second place spots.

Eriksson is an enormously, overly, cautious manager - surely you must remember him removing some attacking player for Phil Neville whilst desperately hoping to hold on to a lead against Brazil. Fairly sure the same happened v. Portugal last year too.
 
 
Krug
19:59 / 09.10.05
For Beckham the first booking was harsh but understandable but the second one came out of nowhere. Not a very impressive performance, they're going struggle next year if they play like this. Barely scraped a win here.
 
 
astrojax69
21:30 / 09.10.05
so bonny old england qualifies as at least one of the two best runners up...

while all the other not so good runners up have to play off.. what a farcical way to run a competition, really! how does this system allow for strong / weak groups, etc? it isn't at all fair and should be reconsidered for the 2010 wc.

but go en-ga-lund - what odds now an england v ausrtralia wc final in germany??

[hint: start at ten to the power of a lot to one against, and go up from there... ]


btw - how good was i with swiss france 1-1 draw? and australia? well, we only managed a comnprehensive five nil rout! (see other thread)
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
10:10 / 12.10.05
King's favourite to play the holding role against Poland tonight... what a kick in the teeth for the likes of Parker, Carrick, Butt, P. Neville...even Murphy. Was there any reason Sven couldn't have called someone else up to the squad to replace the injured Gerrard? And why give the captain's armband to probably the least charismatic member of the team - Michael "Being captain? Well, it's...nice" Owen?
 
 
Benny the Ball
10:30 / 12.10.05
King has looked measured when playing for England, so I suppose it's a good choice. I actually think that you need Carrick or King to play there permanently, with Lampard or Gerrard (at the moment King and Lampard look a good combination). I think that there is a deadline for calling up players into the squad to replace injured folk - he still has Jenas and a couple of others on the side as well. Anyway, I'd rather King over Neville, Carrick has only a couple of caps (the US tour was his first real run out I think?) and Parker is fairly untried, so it makes sense. At least it isn't Owen "why am I here again, opps I've fallen over" Hargreaves.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:30 / 12.10.05
I think that Carrick is injured, Neville is suffering in a failing team, and Butt is (possibly permanently) out of form. I'm surprised at Parker's ongoing exclusion, but as a holding midfielder? He may suffer from being too similar in play to Lampard _and_ Gerrard. there is a school of thought that in the absence of your chosen players you should select by form, in which case Murphy can feel hard done by, certainly. SGE is also playing an increasing number of players out of position - strikers on the wing has always been a failing of his, and King in midfield and Carragher at left-back makes for greater solidity but a lack of fluidity and pace, especially upfield...
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
10:59 / 12.10.05
I have nothing against King, but playing a centre-half in midfield is hardly any sort of long-term solution. Granted, neither Neville or Butt have done much to warrant being given a chance, but I daresay they've probably done more than Jenas . Parker is probably more similar to Gerrard than Lampard, and would be more inclined to play as a holding midfielder and actually stay there, IMHO.
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
11:56 / 12.10.05
Oh, and as to selecting by form - SGE lets you in the squad if you're in form, and might even play you out of position in a friendly, if you're lucky. A player has to be in form for at least two years before Eriksson will pick 'em. I think Carragher is a sound enough choice at left-back, though. He mightn't be much cop going forward, but he knows that and won't do anything stupid.
 
  
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