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British anti semitism

 
 
Char Aina
12:29 / 25.08.05
Today the United Kingdom stands at a crossroads. Great ideological battles--over European unification, the effort to reassert elements of sovereignty in Scotland and Wales, and the future of long-standing traditions such as hunting and the monarchy--have brought about a profound erosion of the very idea of Britain. But when nations are so deeply unsure of the stability of their values and the security of their future, anti-Semitic sentiment often bubbles to the surface, as people deflect blame for a nation’s problems instead of addressing them head-on. For this reason, it is often said that the way a nation treats its Jews is a litmus test for its true character. As Britain’s subjects ponder their future among the community of nations, they would do well to keep these lessons of the past in mind.

from an article on azure.org.il by robert wistrich entitled 'cruel britannia' that details several instances of alleged anti-semitism in the UK.
(found via israel hasbara committee)

i feel the article rambles a little and sometimes struggles to find a point, but the general intent seems to be to publicise several examples of what the author feels is unacceptable behaviour currently being tolerated in britain to support his assertion that anti-semitism in the united kingdom is less associated with extremist groups and his claim that in Britain anti-Semitic sentiment is [an acceptable] part of mainstream discourse and has been for a long time.
he seems to feel britain's lack of direct involvement in the holocaust has left us with less guilt by association than other european countries, and as a result feels we have yet to grow out of anti-semitic thinking;

There are many possible explanations for the unusual quarter that anti-Semitism in Britain enjoys. Whereas the efforts to combat anti-Semitism in France and Germany are intimately connected with the memory of the Holocaust that took place on their soil, Britain has never had to undergo a similar kind of soul-searching.

i feel wistrich's article has many flaws; for example when he mentions tony benn's assessment of bush and sharon as the biggest threats to world peace, clearly suggesting he has anti-semitic motives, or when he unfairly conflates zionism and judaism:

But the intellectual pioneer of the idea that Judaism is a form of Nazism in the 1950s was another eminent member of the British establishment, the historian Arnold J. Toynbee.

when he goes after reviews of My Name is Rachel Corrie i have to admit he lost me completely.


i do, however, feel the more general point may bear examination.
are we as a nation more anti-semitic than other, similar nations? are we a hotbed of arabic militants, raising hackles and fostering hatred of jews? am i being anti-semitic if i suggest that the practices of the israeli government are fascistic? do jews get given a harder time than arabs in our media as a rule?

my answer to all of these questions would be no, but then as a subject of a nation accepts anti-semitic sentiment i would say that.

what do you all think?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:39 / 25.08.05
I think even including some of those names in the topic abstract is erroneous and misleading - I'm sure it's not your intent, toksik, but I almost feel like including Rachel Corrie there legitimises the idea that there is any connection between her and antisemitism. Whereas in fact, there's no reasonable case to answer there, not in the slightest.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:09 / 25.08.05
(Off-topic)- would be handy for the search, though, if the guy slates her in his article. Someone searching for her would probably find that quite interesting. Or does it Google the text as well?(/off-topic)

Interesting thread- I'll come back to it when I've read the article and had time to think.
 
 
Axolotl
13:47 / 25.08.05
I didn't really have time to go through it in detail as I should be working, but first impressions of the article aren't favourable: it cites both Julie Birchill & Melanie Phillips, often seems to suggests that criticism of the Isreali state is the same as anti-semitism and says the fact that we tolerate islamist extremists is evidence of british anti-semitism. The whole thing seems poorly argued with little evidence to back up its claims.
 
 
Char Aina
14:44 / 25.08.05
well, quite.
i do however wonder if the point he is trying to make could be made more artfully and therefore make more sense.

is britain in any way anti-semitic?
have any of you ever caught yourself thinking something that fell into the prejudice trap?
or is robert wistrich barking up an imaginary tree grown in the garden of his own bigotry?
is the answer somewhere inbetweeen?




i take your point about inclusion in the abstract, but i as wistrich feels these people are examples of the trend, i feel it is warranted.
the support that the rachel corrie play found here is another example of british acceptance of anything anti-semitic/unisraeli, apprently.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:29 / 25.08.05
I have absolutely no evidence for this but no, I don't think Britain is more anti-semitic than anywhere else. Personally I am more opposed to zionism than the average citizen of Britain but there's a clear difference between that and anti-semitism. But really I think you need to clarify your terms- do you mean the British government or the British population?

have any of you ever caught yourself thinking something that fell into the prejudice trap?

As to this I think everyone has... I find it very, very difficult not to generalise people who are intensely religious as, basically, complete morons. Particularly when there's something like zionism involved. It's just that a second afterwards green flashing lights fill my brain as I realise how ugly and wrong my last thought was.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:01 / 25.08.05
I do kind of take your point, it's that whole question of legitimising absurd positions by bothering to engage with them thing, which has been debated here before. To my mind, it's a bit like calling a thread 'Racist Hostility To The Police' and then including the name Rodney King in the abstract, you know? Even if an article made the claim that people's views on the latter were part of the former, it would seem a bit topsy-turvy and distasteful to me. Not your bad, though, really.

have any of you ever caught yourself thinking something that fell into the prejudice trap?

I think it's definitely a danger, in the sense that anyone who opposes the actions of a nation state's government and military is always going to be tempted to express that as anger against the population of that nation state. Moreover, nation states often propogate certain insidious ideas about race - like the idea that there is an inseparable connection between individuals and nation states based on how they identify racial or even religiously. This cuts both ways: people may excuse the actions of a nation state's government or military because of how they identify racially/religiously (group A), but equally, people criticising those actions (group B) may fall into criticising a racial or religious identity. The latter tends to be done by group B in regard to Israel and Jewishness less often than group A in this case claim, IMHO, certainly in comparison with other states in the region.
 
 
Char Aina
16:27 / 25.08.05
do you mean the British government or the British population?

i think he means british society.
he seems to be talking about a general national trend for the acceptance of this particular form of hatred, one given tacit support by some political and public figures.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:33 / 25.08.05
This man clearly needs to read some Plato. Let's email him and advise him to go back to basics, then maybe he'll actually edit his work so it means something??
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
07:14 / 26.08.05
I think it's quite true that for a long time anti-Semitism was absolutely part of mainstream political life here. I think that in many sections of society it is still acceptable, though I don't know whether it's more acceptable than other forms of odious and silly prejudice. I'm not sure that equating anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist thinking with anti-Semitism necessarily does anyone any good, simply because the three things have somewhat different - though obviously related - meanings.
 
 
Axolotl
07:21 / 26.08.05
have any of you ever caught yourself thinking something that fell into the prejudice trap?
When criticising a particular political belief (zionism) which is strongly based on religous belief (judaism), which is also a ethnic grouping, it is easy to lump all 3 factors together, which can lead to anti-semitic thoughts if you don't rigourously police yourself.
 
 
w1rebaby
17:13 / 27.08.05
The article quoted is part of a sizeable tradition of pieces attacking Europeans, "leftists", or leftists by extension (since Europeans are a bunch of commies) with the charge of anti-semitism based on opposition for Israel. Clearly there have been and are anti-semites in the UK; it's hard to think of any country for which this isn't true. There are doubtless some anti-semites in Israel, though probably not many.

Historically, anti-semitism has been perfectly socially acceptable. Germany was by no means unusual in this. Finding examples of politicians in the 40s expressing anti-semitic views is hardly difficult. But there's a big and unwarranted jump taking place here. You cannot sensibly use evidence of famous anti-semites disapproving of Israel in the past to conclude that people disapproving of Israel now are similarly motivated. Note that modern examples of actual, officially-approved, uncondemned anti-semitism are pretty much absent. We have:

1. Prince Harry, who was roundly condemned as a twat for wearing a Nazi costume, and has displayed no anti-semitic views;

2. An impressionistic charge of "disproportionate criticism of the Jewish state", which is to start with meaningless because the Israeli state is not "the Jewish state" (the definite article being important here), and continues with the usual criticisms of the BBC and a few other writers and an amusing quote from Julie Burchill of all people - the author apparently not familiar with her status in the media here in general;

3. The fact that Arabs, some of whom may even be anti-semites, are allowed to publish newspapers, conveniently ignoring all of the criticism that has taken place of people publishing and/or promoting anti-semitic material, and of any group associating with anybody who does so;

4. A lot of examples of hyperbole (or maybe not hyperbole, depending on your point of view) comparing the Israeli government to the Nazis. Everyone gets compared to the Nazis, and in the case of the Israeli government the irony involved is going to attract even more lazy comparisons. I can't stand people who say "that's just like HITLER!" but it doesn't actually indicate anti-semitism.

The whole thing is spiked with casual equation of the term "Jews" with the term "Israelis".

Boycotts against Jews arouse painful associations. Attempts to remove Israeli products from Selfridges, Harrods, Tesco, Marks & Spencer, and other British chains, under the slogan “Isolate the Racist Zionist State,” are both a symptom and a rallying point for the resurgence of anti-Semitism in Britain.

Many Israelis may well be Jews, but a boycott of Israeli products is not a boycott against Jews.

We do have anti-semites in this country, as I said before. We have neo-Nazis, we have those promoting conspiracy theories that always somehow seem to involve Jewish-identified institutions at some point, we have people casually talking about how "Jews stick together" or "they own all the banks don't they". Those people are going to oppose Israeli actions because the Israeli government self-identifies as Jewish and they are either of the right intellectual level or have an ulterior motive to believe in that. Sometimes we also have people who see crimes by the Israeli government, conclude that those are Jewish crimes and draw conclusions about Jews in general; descriptions of such people can range from "easily led" to "fucking stupid thoughtless cunts". It needs challenging at every stage.

Concluding that British society is somehow deeply tolerant of anti-semitism, however, is simply unjustified. The examples given are not sufficient, the bias in the way that they are reported is clear, and the "Jewish"/"Israeli government" confusion is so frequent and so obvious that one must conclude that the motivation behind the article is to promote that position.

---

Incidentally, since that article requires subscription, from bugmenot:

Login details for www.azure.org.il
Account #1
anonymo
azure
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
06:58 / 29.08.05
I've had dealings with an "activist" guy on another, less uh, focused board who is one of the biggest cunts I've ever had e-dealings with. Complete inability to seperate "Jews" and "Israelis" in his thinking, constant attempts to equate any Israeli human rights violation with the holocaust, chronic misuse of the works of Noam Chomsky. Oh, and plenty of token references to his stepdad being Jewish.

Basically, he pissed everyone off, discredited Chomsky by his very association and didn't do the Palestinians any good.

These people are out there, and they are seeking to use/hijack legitimate complaints about the conduct of the state of Israel to further their anti-semetic agenas. By buying into the same Israeli=Jew falicy, this guy is not much better.
 
 
macrophage
22:14 / 29.08.05
I knew a lad this Jewish bloke he went to Israel did his Kibbutz thing, claimed that Israel was one of the worst states apart from former South Africa for acting as a free state when it pretty much terrorises Palestinians.

I'm not into the state of "Israel" at all, that's not a Free State that's no better than a Fascist Dictatorship. I sympaphise but at the end of the day the Land Grabs were highly illegal and done under the axis of a Western and American and British backed capiatalist cartel.

Now I can respect that it exists now, that's your balanced point of view. But look at Ireland right, that's under Brit Invasion - contrast it with Israel, now that's Palestine under Zionist invasion. (Who were the biggest supporters of Apartheid South Africa, gold and oil piracy)

To say and think anti-zionist things DOES NOT under any perspective mean that you support the opression of Jews it means that you respect the Palestinians for their rights as the culturally indigenous people that came from there! It does not mean you are a card carrying nazi, it means you empaphise with the Downtrodden.

I paint Israel and its FASCIST STATE the same as I would have painted Franco and his lunatic fringe of rightists and monarchists, they have turned their own ancestral memories of opression and pogroms against innocent people, they have turn coated from what was essentially a Republican and Socialist Idiom into a State of Terror.

Now since "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" there has been consistent attempts to rouse pogrom after pogrom (the infamous hoaxed documents were Russian Secret Service copied from French Souces to instigate hatred), I can understand the need to settle, as alot of Jewish folk ended up going to Russia from all over Europe because of pogroms before hand as part of a religious hysteria sometimes even perpetrated by Royals and Church.

Isreal is SNAFU, Situation All Fucked Up, they are grabbing too many lands, and quite frankly they kill innocents everyday in the name of the State. Oil madness!

In the name of political correctness people say that this is wrong, get a grip there are many and a legion of Jews out there who do not agree with the State of Israel at all.

Can you blame Islamic people for their feelings, I don't, but I don't condone Jihads in the name of Allah for blood rites either as I think that's stupid.

I don't condone state racism and that's what Israel stands for. I'd rather not be counted a as sheep of political correctness I'd rather stick with the downtrodden, and no that does not make me a stormtrooper of the Fascist Philanges who are just as state sponsored just like them all, capitalists and commies alike.

Israel works the Rackets in a Martial Law State to the max, no thanks.

What do you think a Palestinian would say to this?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:45 / 29.08.05
I suspect he would be profoundly embarrassed at the skimpiness of your research.
 
 
odd jest on horn
07:40 / 30.08.05
Haus, I'm not sure ze would get even that far.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
22:29 / 07.09.05
While I'd agree with the criticisms people have been making of that specific article, which I don't believe is much more then a simple propaganda piece for the Israeli goverment, I do think the idea there may be some underlying anti-semitism in current British political discourse bears closer examination. Two specific examples-

Michael Howard- Naturally, I have no time at all for Howard's politics. However, there were the infamous pig posters that were produced by the Labour Party, tying into traditional anti-semitic themes. On top of that, I can't remember any other politican who had their ancestry brought up at election time anywhere near the extent Howard did. While some of this may have been simply a desire to make somewhat tired jokes about vampires, I don't think the possibility that there may have at least been an element of the old "rootless cosmopolitan" slur can be ruled out.

Peter Mandelson- Again, I have no time for his politics. But he isn't the only right wing Blarite shit in the Labour Party, and the level of venom directed at him seemed disproportionate. And, again, the 'shadowy controller' stuff would seem at the least to fit in to traditional anti-semitism.
 
 
Char Aina
22:59 / 07.09.05
can you unpack the mandelson one a bit?
i didnt even realise he was jewish, to start with.
what is it about the mandy hate that makes you feel it is rooted in anti-semitic thinking?
just the magnitude?
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
23:15 / 07.09.05
Not just the magnitude but also some of the themes underpinning it. The idea that Mandelson was a shadowy figure secretly influencing Labour Party policy to an undue level just makes me somewhat uncomfortable. I don't doubt that some of the dislike of Mandelson was entirely political and not motivated by anti-semitism however. And I only think that anti-semitism was a possible issue there. Part of the problem is, in this country at least, I don't think anti-semitic themes tend to be consciously adhered to outside the far right. But I don't think that neccesarily precludes them slipping in anyway.

Another example that's just sprang to mind is Icke's touting of the Protocols. He certainly got more of a hearing among sections of the new age movement then I believe he should have, the good work done by many greens and anti-fascists to expose him not withstanding.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:42 / 07.09.05
To be honest, I didn't know Mandelson was Jewish, and I've read a lot of the vitriol aimed at him. If there's anti-semitism implicit in that, it must be at a very deep level. I'm not convinced, to be honest, on that score.
 
 
Char Aina
23:43 / 07.09.05
i always saw mandelson as a sort of more educated and refined alistair campbell in the early days, to be honest.
ill think on it, though.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:48 / 08.09.05
On top of that, I can't remember any other politican who had their ancestry brought up at election time anywhere near the extent Howard did.

Many of the instances I can recall of Howard's ancestry being brought up were with relevance to his party's racist policies on immigration and asylum (ie, fixed quotas, which when met mean that you turn everyone away, even if they're fleeing, say, racial or religious persecution).

Howard has sinned far more than he has been sinned against when it comes to stirring up racial prejudice.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:51 / 08.09.05
This is true, but it doesn't mean that it was OK for the Labour party to put out those dreadful pig posters (and if they didn't know what they were doing, they bloody well should have done - brain drain at Labour party central perhaps?).

I too did not know that Peter Mandelson is Jewish. I was thinking about this the other day and came to the conclusion that, unless someone is presenting as a religious Jew (clumsy phrasing, but I can't think of a better way to put it), I generally do not realise that they are Jewish. I have to be told to pick up on it. I am now not sure whether this is a good or a bad thing. I had always assumed that the opprobrium directed at Peter Mandelson was because he was, as someone else (sorry) said, a bit like Alastair Campbell - prone to spin and to self-justifying language (and some fairly sleazy financial doings IIRC). All that 'Minister without Portfolio' stuff didn't help either.

I don't like thinking there was a big underlying prejudice underlying all that that I somehow totally missed - makes me wonder what else I am missing...
 
 
Lysander Stark
13:40 / 08.09.05
One of the problems brought to light in different ways by the Howard and Mandelson issues on the one hand, and the original article on the other, is that the moment the word Jewish is out there, all criticism runs the risk of sounding, or being disclaimed as, anti-Semitic.

The interesting thing is that this is a double-edged sword, as the Azure article demonstrates. In it, Wistrich deliberately plumps examples of anti-Israelism (as it were) amongst more genuine examples of anti-Semitism. To claim that political cartoons criticising Israel's government are anti-Semitic is to sensitise a notion so much that any criticsm can be construed as racist and bigoted, when in fact the press should have the right, and need to have the right, to criticise governments and parliamentarians, be they Israeli, Jewish or anything else.

In all this, I think Wistrich does himself and his main point a disservice, because I agree with him that anti-Semitism is growing in Britain (as are other forms of racism). I have noticed so-called 'inoccuous' comments appearing with more and more impunity in supposedly casual conversation, and this has been for some time a cause of worry to me.

(Aside: actually, I always thought Howard himself tried to advertise some of his roots to make him sound a little less unacceptable, and also to make his immigration policies sound more palatable-- a sort of, 'After all, I should know...' thing.)
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
15:22 / 08.09.05
Don't get me wrong about Howard, I totally agree the man's a racist shit, and the "Are you thinking what we're thinking" posters were despicable, even by the Conservative's low standards. I think, by itself, the references to Howard's ancestry wouldn't have worried me particuarly (and as Flyboy's pointed out there were at least some entirely valid political reasons for doing so). It was more the combination of that and the flying pigs/Fagin posters that fill me with a certain amount of unease. Not through any concern for Howard, but because I think even unconcious use of anti-semitic stereotyping in political discourse is a very dangerous development.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:26 / 08.09.05
Oh, that's certainly true as well - Howard kept bringing out the argument that went "I can't possibly be proposing anything that's nasty to immigrants or refugees because of my ancestry, in fact letting people in once helped Britain great, but now we must STOP AND KEEP THEM OUT".

Could you give me some examples of "so-called 'inoccuous' comments appearing with more and more impunity in supposedly casual conversation" - I'm genuinely curious about this because I do hear this claim from people who can't distinguish this from criticism of the Israeli state, government or military, so I'm interested in hearing it from someone who can. I agree that racism in general has increased recently in the UK - I blame the left/liberals for not taking a harder line, instead pandering to people's "valid concerns" about marauding hordes of Albanians or whatever.
 
 
Lysander Stark
16:04 / 08.09.05
Regarding the inoccuous remarks, they tend to be of what I consider the most pernicious variety-- the 'oh, well, he's one of them' type that I had fairly recently believed was limited to BBC period dramas, and was relieved that it was so. I had seen it before in France, which has always been fairly anti-Semitic. There, I have several Jewish friends, but was always shocked how easily stereotypical clichés about the Jews were bandied around, occasionally in their company. However, it tends to be the rich and ostentatious Jews that are the butt of jokes or victims of denigration there. They incite that classic French disdain for the vulgar. But-- is that strictly true, or is it merely a veil that allows the French to pretend to be snobs rather than racists and bigots? (Read the chapters concerning France in Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem and it becomes clear that their anti-Semitism has always been particularly poisonous).

In Britain, we do not (as far as I have ever seen) have an equivalent to that ostentatious/vulgar Jew type, certainly nothing defined enough of that sort or level to merit the effort of making it a target of ridicule in its own right, either in conversation or in the media. But when it comes to thrift and bacon and other such trite and stoopid themes, I hear more and more links casually dropped in conversation that are overtly anti-Semitic. The plea of irony is only occasionally valid. This seems to be anti-Semitism by osmosis in a similar vein to the increasingly acceptable anti-chav snobbery-- some 'chavs' appear to beg for ridicule, but by participating, I worry that we edge, even so-called liberals etc, towards becoming a lybch-mob. It is all creep creep creeping bigotry.

Mind you, the waters are further muddied by the fact that some of the best people for mocking the Jews are my Jewish friends. Is it wrong to laugh? Where does that place all those classic American comedians and their self-deprecating 'racist' gags?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:37 / 08.09.05
In Britain, we do not (as far as I have ever seen) have an equivalent to that ostentatious/vulgar Jew type, certainly nothing defined enough of that sort or level to merit the effort of making it a target of ridicule in its own right

Really? Think about Vanessa Feltz and the stereotype that surrounds her- she perpetuates it a bit herself but it's definitely there. I grew up partly in the Jewish community in North London (actually it was the first religion that I ever consciously identified as a religion rather than an aspect of wider culture). As a result I'm aware that North London has a lot of this sort of prejudice, especially areas like Hendon, St Johns Wood and Friern Barnet. There's a very recognised stereotype that splits Jewish culture into two modes that I hesitate to call vulgar/ostentatious on one side and intellectual on the other. Anyway I'm trying to say that it is defined, just that the definition isn't widely understood.
 
 
■
22:51 / 08.09.05
Another one from a particularly odious source to illustrate that there is that perception: Dorian from Birds of a Feather. OK, the actress is Jewish (I think) - and, now I come to think of it, so are the writers - but in the same way it panders to many other stereotypes (cheeky working-class Londoners, honest criminals, dodgy Greeks) it really does no-one any favours. I'm sure I heard someone recently doing a Jewish tailor on TV or radio going on about "good schmutter", but I can't remember what it was. The dodgy stuff is out there.

As an aside, it's a fine enough line between the knowing self-deprecation of Jackie Mason/Woody Allen and goys like most of us trying to even repeat the same material without being offensive. Those who don't even recognise the distinction make it worse for everyone, so it's usually best not to try yourself and call others on it when you can.
 
 
Lysander Stark
07:58 / 09.09.05
Point taken about Dorian and Vanessa, although I think that it is a far less established stereotype in Britain than in France...

My real problem with that article was its horrid one-sidedness and its muddling of Judaism and Zionism for its own ends, though. Conveniently ignored was the 2002 pro-Israel rally in Trafalgar Square with Mandelson speaking, amongst others.

Forgotten too was the British difficulty in dealing with the admittedly flawed Palestine Mandate that was caused by the smuggling of Jews by various Zionist groups into the area, tilting the population balance. The fact too that these organisations were helped by true Brits like Orde Wingate.

It really annoyed me to see an article written with so little appreciation of the grey areas in the whole historical question (eg no mention of the fact that for hundreds of years, though admittedly not in modern times, England had no open Jews following a pretty complete holocaust of its own). All in all, it is a horrid, thorny, sticky area, morally and historically and retro-morally (if that makes sense). There are lots of reasons for some understanding of Israel's plight as it now stands, and there are no reasons or excuses for anti-Semitism. And the writer only served to undermine his own cause (except for the fact that the article was intended for predominantly Jewish readers; but then that is fuelling a cycle in itself, is it not?).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:08 / 09.09.05

It really annoyed me to see an article written with so little appreciation of the grey areas in the whole historical question (eg no mention of the fact that for hundreds of years, though admittedly not in modern times, England had no open Jews following a pretty complete holocaust of its own).


Sorry, but who with the what now? The Parish laws certainly had the effect of de facto exiling Jews from society, as they did anyone else not a member of a parish church, but holocaust? Whenabouts?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:30 / 09.09.05
Well, there was a massacre at York sometime around Richard I, I think, but apart from that and other similar incidents of persecution it was expulsion (1290 I see from wikipedia) and prohibition rather than genocide, until readmission under Cromwell. Not quite the same thing as a holocaust, but nevertheless racial and religious persecution...
 
 
Lysander Stark
08:44 / 09.09.05
There are other examples of the massacre of Jews, not least the legally sanctioned killings on trumped up charges, during the Middle Ages until their expulsion. To me, the repeated violence and the fact that it resulted in a Jewish population, one way or another, of supposedly zero in England merited the title holocaust.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:52 / 09.09.05
Myes, I did think about that also... and certainly I dare say that if those people who persecuted Jews on the blood libel ticket could have perpetrated a more extensive annihilation, they would have... I am just wary of using the term holocaust because it might be seen to equate those persecutions to more recent holocausts, not least the Shoah itself.

I mean, it might be justifiable to make that equation, but I think it's a bit hard to tell given the length of time that has elapsed. Comparison, definitely, condemnation of the acts, certainly... but beyond that I am not sure. Probably largely because I had never given it a great deal of thought (medieval history not my forte).

Hope this does not seem too nitpicky.
 
 
Lysander Stark
08:58 / 09.09.05
No worries about nitpickiness at all, as I am a nitpicker myself-- I knew that the term holocaust predated the Holocaust that we all know from the 1930s and 1940s, and with which the term is usually associated, and for that reason I left the poor slaughtered Jewry of York and elsewhere in the Middle Ages with a small 'h', for which I hope they forgive me...
 
  
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