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Alternative medicine

 
  

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Ganesh
18:54 / 29.08.05
Strix, if you're being asked to evidence your statements more than other posters within this thread (and I'm not at all sure you are), this may be because your statements are rather more sweeping than most. I appreciate that opinion is opinion, and your opinions stem from an established school of medical/therapeutic thought but if, in a discussion of how life on earth originated, I stated baldly, "we're a race of alien ghosts", I might be expected to back this up in some way. I could well attempt to avoid this by gesturing toward the fact that many scientologists believe the same thing, but I'd expect to be called on it.

One reason I, personally, am taking issue with what you've said is that I'm not convinced that your holistic/atomistic distinction is a valid or even useful one. In the examples thus far (cancer, depression, the common cold), it's unclear how the therapeutic actions of a holistic practitioner would differ from those of anyone else. In none of these cases (and, as I've pointed out, in the vast majority of conditions termed 'disease' or 'illness') is the "root cause" readily identifiable - so I'm in the dark as to how a holistic practitioner would go about addressing it. And that's leaving aside even more nebulous matters of "spirit", etc.

Having trained in conventional Western medicine, I'd say that much of what my colleagues do is 'holistic' in the sense that they ask the question, "why is this person presenting with this symptom at this time?" and give due consideration to the wider picture. Whether they possess the resources to "treat the whole of one's life" (whether anyone does) is another matter.
 
 
Ganesh
19:12 / 29.08.05
On the subject of resources, my occasional brushes with private medicine serve to remind me that many of my own views are shaped by having trained and practising within a subsidised healthcare system. I wonder to what extent this influences the way alternative/complementary medicine is seen and, crucially, its perceived effectiveness.

In the early days of psychoanalysis, it was firmly held that a major factor in the effectiveness of therapy was the fact that the patient paid for it. Apart from obvious financial motives on the part of Freud & co., it was reckoned that paying indicated necessary committment to the therapeutic process.

I wonder whether there's a grain of truth in this, with regard to alternative/complementary therapies. Until relatively recently, one would have to seek out said therapies and fund them oneself. Now they're becoming more and more available on the NHS, it'll be interesting to see whether they're perceived as less effective...
 
 
Smoothly
09:07 / 04.11.05
More alternative diagnosis than alternative medicine, but does anyone have any experience of the various food sensitivity tests of the kinesiology, Vega, Carroll testing types?
Over the last couple of years it seems that pretty much everyone I work with has had one or other of these tests and evangelise about it afterwards. Some of the positive outcomes sound a bit McKeith to me ("Turns out I'm allergic to chocolate, cheese, alcohol, sugar and bread. I cut those out of my diet, I lost weight and my skin's cleared up!"), but it's hard to ignore the sheer weight of praise these techniques are getting.
Am I a fool to myself for doubting this stuff in the face of so much anecdotal evidence?
 
 
Loomis
09:44 / 04.11.05
I suppose there are different levels of negative reactions to food that are perhaps referred to as an "allergy", though I don't know how official they are, scientifically. We know that food allergies exist - plenty of people swell up and keel over after eating certain foods. But when it comes to low-level reactions, the type that you only notice by the fact that you feel better once you've stopped eating it, well it's a bit of a grey area.

Often the things cut out are high in fat or sugar, so it stands to reason people feel better after reducing their intake, as happens on Gillian McKeith’s show (“I stopped drinking fifty pints a week and subsisting on kebabs and I feel much better!”). Foods like milk and wheat are, according to some, still fairly recent introductions to our diet and therefore our bodies haven’t quite got used to them, but since we have slowly got used to them over the years the reaction in most people is so low that you don’t notice it until you stop eating said foods. And of course it’s more pronounced in some people than others.

I also have some time for the theory that it’s only in the last generation that most people have begun to eat such a variety of foods rather than only what was produced locally, and that’s a pretty big deal. Imagine taking an animal that has survived for hundreds or thousands of years on one plant and then feeding it another. Also the mixing of genes could affect food sensitivities, whereas one or two hundred years ago most people inherited genes from their ancestors who had lived in the one area for generations, eating the same food groups.

So … I don’t know how much of this is hard science but I think there’s enough there for me to give it some credence. And the fact that some people are allergic to x and others to y and others to none at all doesn’t necessarily debunk the theory behind it, when you look at all the different health problems that affect people at random.
 
 
Smoothly
09:50 / 04.11.05
Yeah, I don’t doubt that food allergies exist, and I don’t really doubt that you might have a sensitivity to certain things. But I can’t help but be sceptical about some of the techniques employed for measuring these things. Admittedly, I don’t know much about the science behind it – but holding samples of certain foods over ‘energy points’ in the body, measuring the resistance of certain joints, running currents through someone’s body and so on sound suss to me. But maybe people’s descriptions of what was done to them masks some solid science.
 
 
Axolotl
10:00 / 04.11.05
I think food allergies do exist, but I'd be very careful of any tests administered by any of the high street practicioners, or in fact probably anyone who wasn't an actual medical professional.
Smoothly - I love your use of McKeith as an adjective. She embodies everything I hate & mistrust about the nutritionist/ vaguely alternative health industry, with her fake phd and lack of any qualifications.
 
 
Spaniel
10:48 / 04.11.05
Smoothly, slightly off topic, but as I understand it, oranges are better than tablets because oranges contain enzymes that help you better metabolize vitamin C.
 
 
Loomis
11:28 / 04.11.05
Diagnosis and cure are two different things. If someone waves a magic wand and tells you you're allergic to strawberries, it's meaningless until you cut them out of your diet for a couple of months. If you then feel great than maybe you are allergic to them, or maybe it's a placebo, but whether it was diagnosed through bogus methods isn't really an essential part of the fact that you may be sensitive to a certain food.
 
 
Smoothly
11:31 / 04.11.05
Maybe Boboss, but what does that mean? You metabolize it more quickly, more of it? What are the consequences of that? Does the body struggle to get all the vitamin C it needs out of vitamin tablets?
Oranges are better for you than tablets in loads of ways, obviously. My dispute (mentioned earlier) was whether the (good, natural) vitamin C in oranges was any different from the (chemical, artificial) vitamin C in tablets. As I understand it, it isn’t (even if the process of delivery is). But I’m amazed at how resistant some people are to that. The idea that wholesome foods are themselves made of *chemicals* seems to be anathema to many, and I’m not sure why. I wonder if it’s indicative of a mistrust of anything that sounds like science. Like Ganesh, I wonder whether alternative medicines/techniques would *suffer* from the endorsement by men in white coats. Are people attracted to kinesiology and the like precisely *because* it seems so unscientific.
 
 
Smoothly
11:39 / 04.11.05
Yeah yeah Loomis, that’s what I mean. Is Vega testing and so on just a magic wand, with its successes explainable through a combination of chance, placebo and common sense (not drinking alcohol will make most people feel healthier, etc)?
 
 
Loomis
11:46 / 04.11.05
I'm not sure what you're getting at Smoothly. I wasn't aware that any of these things claimed to be magic wands. From the stories I've heard, people get told that they should try cutting out x and y and see it if makes a difference. The diagnosis only suggests a couple of likely foods for that person, but doesn't claim to be conclusive without testing. I don't see the controversy.
 
 
Smoothly
12:09 / 04.11.05
Sorry Loomis, I’m asking whether making a judgement of what a patient should cut out based on a Vega meter reading is any more likely to identify the relevant x and y than consulting a crystal ball, waving a magic wand, or guessing. Like I said initially, this isn’t so much about the treatment as the method of diagnosis.
 
 
Spaniel
12:10 / 04.11.05
I think - and bear in mind that this is the most received of received information - that you metabolize more vitamin C from oranges. In fact, I seem to remember readng that studies have shown that many vitamin pills are very hard to metabolize, i.e. have very little nutritional value.
 
 
Smoothly
12:12 / 04.11.05
But you could just swallow two and close the gap.
I mean, isn't there a lot more ascorbic acid in a vitamin tablet than there is in an orange anyway?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:20 / 04.11.05
They tell you to take one a day though. If you took two it might kill you or at least turn you orange.
 
 
Smoothly
12:25 / 04.11.05
Durrr. It's carrots and Sunny D that turn you orange, Petey.

Very high doses of certain vitamins have been shown to be potentially deady though, right? Or at least increase your chances of getting certain cancers or something. I'll try to dig out some info if anyone thinks that sounds like bollocks.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:30 / 04.11.05
It depends on the vitamin. Some will just get excreted if you take too much, which makes you pee fluorescent yellow but is otherwise harmless. If you O.D. on iron tablets you can mess up your stomach fatally, I do know that.
 
 
Loomis
12:33 / 04.11.05
I'm pretty sure that the amount of vitamins in tablets is many times the daily dose precisely because you only absorb a percentage of it. Which would imply that taking two would indeed double your dosage. One thing I've always wondered though is how you can work out how much a given person absorbs.

And speaking of absorbing iron, a doctor once told me that you can get iron by sucking (rusty) nails. I've never been able to determine whether he was taking the piss. Any ideas?
 
 
Smoothly
12:34 / 04.11.05
I thought there was some reasonably new evidence that Vitamin E and (maybe) C can also be dangerous (even in some of the doses recommended by the Vitamin evangelists). I'll google.
 
 
Smoothly
12:37 / 04.11.05
At least one study has suggested that very large vitamin C doses can cause rather than prevent oxidative damage to DNA in cells. The panel set a 2,000 milligram daily upper limit for vitamin C from a combination of food and supplements.

High Doses Of Vitamin E Found to Raise Risk of Dying
 
 
w1rebaby
13:49 / 04.11.05
I don't know much about E, but I'm not sure about the danger from C based on "just one study" when it seems to be pretty well accepted otherwise that it just gets excreted without doing anything.

Having said that I don't think there's much to indicate that more than 2000mg vit C a day does you any good anyway, not that I've heard of, could be wrong. I've found a gram a day to be good when colds are starting to come on.
 
 
Smoothly
14:20 / 04.11.05
No, I’d need more convincing too.

Sorry, I’ve pushed this discussion off topic a bit. Is there no one here with experience of any of these alternative food allergy tests?
 
  

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