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Who is King of the Iron Fist?

 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
22:44 / 18.08.05
Mortal Kombat 2 was the first "fighting game", as I termed it then, that I got into. "Into" as in learned all the moves for everyone and was unstoppable. Untouchable. Unbeatable. My older brother could maybe give me a decent match, but I was obviously superior (although he probably denies it to this day).

As always happens, the game stops being about fighting and eventually turns into something like fencing, where timing and a good sense of range are the two biggest factors to winning a match. Then it turns into chess, where you start thinking several moves ahead, because things don't happen fast enough to distract you. The game kind of loses its appeal at that point. If I want to think ten moves ahead, and have time to eat a sammich while I'm thinking, I'll play chess.

But lo! I eventually found Tekken 2, and by the time it suffered the same fate as Mortal Kombat 2, Tekken 3 was already out, and I had years to master it. I was never so good I couldn't find someone who could beat me. Actually, my training for Tekken 3 sort of ran like a Kung Fu movie: I thought I was badass until a girl I was seeing totally humiliated me (I talked so much shit, and she just sat there, smiling, side-stepping every goddam move and punching me in the damn ribs) so I found someone more skilled and trained with him until I was freakin' awesome and took my revenge. I could even beat the guy who trained me to beat that girl, although we were pretty even. Again I thought I was badass. Then...(dramatic music builds up)

...I met trainer's brother, champion of countless local and not-so-local tournaments. He was truly untouchable. Another goddam level, I tell you. If you ever managed to beat him one round because he was just fooling around, y'know, trying some obscure and obscenely difficult move just for the look of it, he would put it on lockdown next round and you wouldn't score a single hit. You might not even throw a single punch. So I got him to train me and my buddy (the Tekken master's brother) by challenging him constantly and getting murdered every time, slowly dragging secrets out of him.

Now, there's Tekken 5, and a goddam book to go with it that openly reveals almost every goddam thing I've learned over the past few years. Jesus. All that work, and some ten year old just has to read it. Thank god most of the people reading it don't understand it, and knowing doesn't equal experience.

But still, the game is intense, very balanced, and quick enough so that you don't have time to think quite so many moves ahead. It feels less like chess and more like fencing, which is great. I'm glad I got into it years ago, and can learn with great speed now.

So...any Tekken players? What other games are worth getting into? I've dabbled in Soul Calibur, and everybody knows something about Street Fighter. Or are you lot not into this sort of game? You know, the blood and the teeth and the punching in the kidneys and whatnot. Talkin' shit the whole time. I bet I can whup you. I'll even let you pick who I play as, you little sissy...
 
 
rising and revolving
00:41 / 19.08.05
I have a love, a deep passionate love, for Tekken (either TT, 4, or 5 for my money) and Soul Calibur (1 or 2). I'm shit fucking hot at Tekken 4 and SC 1 - in the fashion of being absurdly great at 2 characters, okay to real good with 3 or 4 more and at least competant with everyone else.

And the reason I love them? Because when you play against someone good (preferably someone close to evenly matched) this happens

"As always happens, the game stops being about fighting and eventually turns into something like fencing, where timing and a good sense of range are the two biggest factors to winning a match."

Hell yeah.

When I have more time, I'll come back and wax in depth about the Zen of fighting.

Oh, and I've dallied with Virtua Fighter 4 where I'm good but not great, and I'm okay at most Street Fighters.
 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
05:22 / 19.08.05
Ah, you make me miss playing these games.

I havent had a good group of pals who were worth anything in fighting games for a long time, so I've been pretty much on the bench.

;O

Anyways, I think the Tekken games have the deepest play, but I cant say I dont have fun picking up something as simple as Smash Brothers Melee now and again.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
05:49 / 19.08.05
I used to be utterly ridiculous at Tekken 3. I was the master at Jack and Hwaorang (or however it's spelled), and I used to humiliate my fellow dormmates on a daily basis. I didn't have the same love for Tekkens Tag Team or 4, and I haven't played 5. I sort of migrated to Soul Caliber, where I have been mopping the floor with people using Nightmare and Raphael.

On the other hand, I was always incredibly shit with Street Fighter and Virtua Fighter, and I was average at best with Mortal Kombat, unless I played with Scorpion or Noob Saibot. But Noob Saibot was pretty much cheating.

My first fighting game was Karateka, for the Atari. Anybody remember that game?
 
 
Lord Morgue
08:34 / 19.08.05
I'll do you one better, mate!
Eat of my flesh.
Not sure of the keys, so you'll have to experiment. Just for god's sake remember to bow to that psycho princess! Jeezus, that never happened to Mario.
 
 
Quantum
18:42 / 19.08.05
I also learnt Tekken the hard way, in T3 by watching Lei switch styles all over the shop and Law Bruce Lee my ass, played by my friend who was almost unbeatable.
I particularly like the Capoeristas, Eddy and Michelle, some funky moves available and great range with the kicking.

Like Lui Kang in MK, the Bruce Lee character wins in the end usually. Bastard.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:26 / 19.08.05
Not a huge fan of Tekken - the characters don't appeal to me, the controls never really struck me as all that intuitive and the single player on the PS versions was broken, which was a pretty big problem for somebody whose mates don't like playing beat 'em ups.

Virtua Fighter was always something I got much more enjoyment from. The sheer simplicity of the control setup - block, punch, kick, and that's it - means that it's a game that even the most ham-fisted non-gamer can have a crack at. The combo system is equally simple and friendly - all those PPPKs and PP>Ks aren't just moves that a beginner can pull off by accident while hammering the buttons, but also strings that are easy to recognise and memorise. There's a huge amount of variety in the characters, all built up from that basic three button setup.

I've not played either series since their third episodes. Really want to try out both Tekken 5 and VF4Evo, but nowadays a beat 'em up has to have an online mulitplayer component for me to be able to justify buying it.

Mortal Kombat's just nasty, imo. No balance between the characters whatsoever, lazy repetition of both character sprites and movesets, one move that has priority over everything else and can lead to hilarity because it makes the game such a farce (leg sweep, wait, leg sweep, wait, leg sweep...), *so* little balance that one of the installments features a character who can pull out and fire a gun, and so on.

The worst of Mortal Kombat has to be the control setup. Conisder the Street Fighter/King of Fighters way of doing things - the command you input into the pad/stick translates directly into the character animation on the screen. When you pull a down, down-forward, forward fireball move on SF, the character moves down, down-forward, forward. The same applies to every move in the game - dragon punches, 360 grabs, charge moves, hurricane kicks. Your fingers are the character.

Now look at Mortal Kombat. In comparison, it's from the Beavis & Butthead school of design.

"Huh. Huh. Yeah, dude. Let's have some ninja guy, only, like, he'll have this special move, yeah, where he can transform his arm into a chainsaw and slice the other dude's head off!"

"Shit yeah! How you wanna have the player do that?"

"Left, down, up, left, up-right, low kick, block, left, right, high punch, block, block, down, Start!"

MK's horribly inept. It built its fame on two things - the use of digitised actors for character sprites and the fatalities. Remove those and it no longer serves any purpose, other than to be dragged out at parties when you're all pissed or tired of having to think about what you're doing and just want to laugh at somebody else's misfortune.

So yeah. I'm a big fan of Street Fighter, with SF Alpha 2 being the best in the series for me. Sure, SFIII is a more technical game, but Alpha 2 is exuberant, funny, colourful, not as frightening for newcomers and yet still deep. And it's a tighter game than the bloated Alpha 3.

I'm also a fan of SNK's beat 'em ups, even though my experience of them is limited - historically, they've hardly ever seen release over here. Even the current Xbox and PS2 ports are a source of much frustration - the company supposed to be releasing them in Europe, Ignition Entertainment, are a complete bunch of incompetent fuckwits whose lack of organisation has meant the King of Fighters ports have been delayed for about a year, and are now being split into a number of seperate packages for which we'll be expected to pay more than twice what US gamers are.

Sorry. It's a bit if a sore point.

Also lots of fun is the Dead or Alive series. The multi-tiered arenas are a great laugh and the ability to counter has, as the series has progressed, been turned into a slightly more demanding option, leading to a game which, while still lacking some balance and not asking an enormous amount of the player, is both accesible to newcomers and offers some scope for mastery. And DoA Ultimate has what can be a superb online multiplayer mode, when it's not being screwed up by massive amounts of lag.
 
 
Lord Morgue
04:52 / 20.08.05
Welcome to fighting game hell.
Tattoo Assassins
What do Slash's wife, Nancy Kerrigan, Billy Jack and Axl Rose have in common? Flaming diarreah and projectile vomit, apparantly.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
18:46 / 20.08.05
PRISM!

Tattoo Assasins is the reason Jonny Cage got killed off in MKIII - they were pissed off that the actor played ELECTRO in Tattoo Assasins.
 
 
Lord Morgue
01:48 / 21.08.05
Ha! Cool, I didn't know that. You know, Mortal Kombat was originally going to be the Jean-Claude Van Damme game, with Van Damme digitised into the game, like the old Jackie Chan arcade game, but he bailed, leaving them with the engine and no lead. So, Liu Kang took over and Johnny Cage became a sort of parody of J.C.V.D..
Hey, anyone spot the original Liu Kang, Ho Sung Pak, in Jackie Chan's "Drunken Master 2"? He got his own film, too, with "Book of Swords".
 
 
ORA ORA ORA ORAAAA!!
05:37 / 21.08.05
There have only ever been two fighting games for me:
Tekken (3) and Smash Brothers Melee.

I don't know many people who have the instincts for fighting games, but Tekken was the first fighting game I played through with every character on every difficulty level to get all the bits and pieces. I'd probably be shit at it now since I haven't plaid it for years, but there was no-one I knew who could beat me back in the day. That said, T3 had the same problem that the mortal kombat series did: the killer move. There's one move with every character (it's not the same move for every character, but it's there) that you can repeat over and over and over and win with. A human player can get out of it, of course, but the machine never could.

Also: SSBM is fantastic, and though there's a lot of pick-up-and-play, there's also a fairly solid fighting game under there. The cube controller is not made for fighters, though, so it can take some time to find it.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
09:51 / 21.08.05
Doesn't get better than Tekken, in my own none-too-humble opinion. Tekken 4 I could've done without (although it introduced a much more apparent delay function on some moves), but 5 more than makes up for it. Almost all the characters have counters (thank god), and almost none stand out as "too powerful". The most notable exception is Paul, who has dominated the game since Tekken 3. In Tekken 5 he is just as relentless. Punishing, even. It's not difficult to make your opponent's first mistake his last. His only weakness is his crappy side-step, which you hardly need unless you're a defensive player, in which case don't bother playing with Paul.

One of the most notable features of Tekken 5 is the increased control over timing. Some moves, such as Bryan Fury's power kick (foward-foward left kick) can be delayed significantly by holding the left kick button, then releasing at your leisure. When done correctly, it looks sweet as hell. Paul's standard super punch (down-to-forward right punch) will go as fast or as slow as you input the commands. Also, the range is just as adjustable.

Will have more when I sober up a bit.
 
 
Lord Morgue
12:17 / 21.08.05
I got yer Mortal Kombat right here.
MK Konquest Adventure 1
 
 
iamus
21:32 / 21.08.05
I love Smash Brothers a lot, but it's quite an unbalanced game. Your opponents have to be the same skill level as you or else you're going to hump them every time. I can't get anyone to play against me for this very reason (and I'm not even that good) so I've never really been able to get down and dirty with it outside single player, which really doesn't count at all.

Goddamnit though, I saw SF Alpha 2 yesterday and I didn't buy it. I think I'll have to jump into town to get that tomorrow, if it's still about.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
21:56 / 21.08.05
I know enough of Street Fighter to kick a reasonable amount of ass. The thing I've not enjoyed about many of the latest versions is the same problem I have with Rival Schools/Project Justice games (which I also love): the fact that you can land a single hit, and from that hit a few more that your opponent can't block, and from that combo a super-fireball or team attack or whatever happens when you use all punch/all kick buttons for a super attack. In both SF and Rival Schools, you can throw those into the middle of a simple punch/kick combo and have something like 13 to 25 unblockable hits in a row.

I quickly grow frustrated when I play these games, because everyone I normally play against can do this off one single attack. If they land a punch, expect at least a fifteen hit combo behind it that you can't block. It's almost like Killer Instinct, but without the breakers.

Which isn't to say that Tekken doesn't have its shares of combo attacks. But each one has at least one or two opportunities to break, and even extended grapple moves that can drain all but a fraction of your life meter have avenues of escape. Not to mention the moves themselves are incredibly difficult for anyone who hasn't practiced long and hard.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:54 / 21.08.05
C'mon, Jake - that's a pretty wild exaggeration. There's no way you'd ever be on the receiving end of anything like 25 unblockable hits in a Street Fighter game. The VS spin-offs, yes, but not the original series.

There are plenty of ways to get out of a tight spot in SF. You can roll out of a knock down in mid-air, if you think you're going to be juggled, to either air block (Alpha) or parry (III). Incoming hits can be avoided and turned around by a parry in III or an alpha counter in the Alpha series (although maybe not in Alpha 1, I forget). You can tech escape throws.

The VS games - the Marvel-themed ones, anyway - are a different kettle of fish. They're knockabout and ridicuous, with supers capable of easily taking combos into three figure sums in MvC2, but that's what they were designed to be - insane, OTT party games. Comparing them to titles which are supposed to be more serious isn't very fair.

The same thing goes for putting supers onto the end of chains - it takes some real skill to do that in the regular SF series, but can be accomplished simply by button bashing in MvC/MvC2.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:08 / 21.08.05
Er, the above to Tuna Ghost. Sorry, got myself a bit confused there.

Suddenly notice that I've managed to forget to mention my favourite beat 'em up series ever - Capcom's Vampire/Darkstalkers. It has the technical demands and balance of SF, but displays far more flair and imagination in its character design. Almost everybody is taken from some old horror B-flick or nursery rhyme, but twisted and distorted through an anime lens. There's also a lot more variety between them than there is in, well, pretty much any other beat 'em up you care to mention.

Was used to introduce a lot of concepts to Capcom fighters which have since become core elements of other games from the company. A couple that they've not used since, too - I think it's a real shame that they never took Vampire Savior's double life bar/one round system (you get floored for a couple of seconds when the first of the bars is drained) into the SF games, because it allowed beginners and newcomers to scrape a knockdown out of bouts with more experienced players. That worked well in providing those players with the illusion that they were getting some sort of win and preventing them from becoming frustrated with constant losses, even if it was just an illusion.

Strange that the series has never taken off in the same way as some others, and depressing that it now seems to be condemned to a life of dull remixes, rather than ever seeing a proper new installment.
 
 
Lord Morgue
03:54 / 22.08.05
I know what you mean about the "unbeatable move" in Tekken- I once finished the Playstation Tekken 2 using the Sumo Ganryu, and only his ridiculous "hopping on one foot slapping at you with one hand" move. Couldn't get that to work in the arcades, though. You know if you leave 2player Leis by themselves long enough, they'll slowly shuffle in a spiral up to each other's faces?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
00:00 / 25.08.05
C'mon, Jake - that's a pretty wild exaggeration. There's no way you'd ever be on the receiving end of anything like 25 unblockable hits in a Street Fighter game. The VS spin-offs, yes, but not the original series.

I'm not sure what constitutes "the original series", but I'll admit the most frustrating games are from the V.S. vein, especially a particularly hideous amalgamation for the dreamcast.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:06 / 25.08.05
I just mean the standard SF games - II, Alpha and III, including their various updates. The ones that have a continuous story/timeline running through them, basically.

I've got to admit to having a big soft spot for both the Marvel vs Capcoms. The first is far more subdued than the second and, as a result, can be played with a certain level of seriousness. Its parentage also meant that it still had hand-drawn, 2D backgrounds, which I've always prefered in 2D fighters to the out of place 3D ones. The second game's just a riot - it's huge fun to play against anybody, imo. And I love the cast lists and how the artists updated or recreated certain characters for both games - the Marvel characters have never had as much life or personality as they did in these games, the inclusion of characters from Capcom history (Strider, MegaMan, Captain Commando) was wonderful to see.

However, X-Men vs Street Fighter is a bit pap, and as far as I'm aware Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter is more or less the exact same game with a couple of changes to the line-up (although it does include Dan, Capcom's pink-robed SNK mickey-take, so it gets a few points for that). Neither to be confused with X-Men: Children of the Atom or Marvel Super Heroes, both of which are fine games.

Confusing naming schemes, as is the norm for Capcom fighters. This might help clear it up.

It should be noted that not all the VS titles are as over the top as the Marvel-branded ones. The first Capcom vs SNK is a pretty special game. You can tell that a huge amount of work went into it - characters that have never met before have perfectly balanced movesets, there's the introduction of a relatively deep scoring system for those who don't just want to batter their way through, the number of fighters included is immense, you can select your prefered game system - SNK or Capcom - both of which are balanced against each other, you've got not just one but two wonderfully detailed portraits of all the characters - one for when you're using the SNK system, one for the Capcom alternative - and it features the best 2D backdrops *ever*. It also has an extensive set of hidden unlockables - new characters, alternate versions of characters, new arenas - which gives it value as a single player game.

The sequel on PS2, Xbox and Cube is an absolute disgrace in comparison.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
20:32 / 25.08.05
I know what you mean about the "unbeatable move" in Tekken- I once finished the Playstation Tekken 2 using the Sumo Ganryu, and only his ridiculous "hopping on one foot slapping at you with one hand" move.

I was refering to King's death roll, which is a throw combo that takes 90% of your health. As a throw it is unblockable (sorta reminds me of Akuma's ulitimate attack, the one where he floats over and grabs you and the screen flashes a few times and when the picture comes back you're on the ground with all of your health gone. Except King's death roll takes about twenty seconds to complete, as opposed to the second-and-a-half for Akuma), and only one or two parts of it are open to countering, which is difficult under the best of circumstances.

A guy I play against occasionally has mastered this move, but doesn't use it very often. It's not much fun for anybody. He only brings it out when his mastery of Tekken is challenged hard enough, which is pretty rare.
 
 
The Falcon
18:49 / 26.08.05
I like Tekken 3 the best, because it was the only one I was any good at (actually I was pretty sweet at VF, but I find 2 to have something of a timelag from button to action, and - oddly - I'm not too hot at it) with Jin particularly. Should maybe get 5.

I thought the controls were quite refreshing from the manifold variations on a hadoken (which I cannot fucking do) and fairly intuitive - you know, right foot, left foot and all that. More correspondant anyway.
 
 
erisian
19:40 / 06.09.05
6 words, 2 extraneous letters, and 5 unusual characters: Guilty Gear XX#: Reload- the Midnight Carnival

If you like 2d fighters and haven't played it, you're doing yourself a grave disservice. I dunno if it's the ultra-smooth animation, the range of INSANE characters, the fact that most of the people and moves are named after heavy metal bands and songs, or what, but I am totally smitten with the Guilty Gear series.

Tekken... meh. Soul Caliber is the only 3d fighter I ever got into. Well, other than DOA3, and that was just because I played really cheap and thus always won.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
20:24 / 06.09.05
thought the controls were quite refreshing from the manifold variations on a hadoken (which I cannot fucking do)

I only just became able to do a dragon uppercut (foward-down-to-forward punch) reliably last year. Imagine playing SF and not being able to do the second most basic attack in the series. I was so ashamed...

I played the first Guilty Gear (maybe not the first. I know it was for the first Playstation) and enjoyed it. Although I was never clear on the priorities of the Death Move.
 
 
erisian
21:01 / 06.09.05
Oh, the IK moves are just shite anyways unless you're a total showoff. Almost impossible to land against a player that knows what they're doing. You're better off keeping your tension to use for Roman Cancels and Faultless Guard's and whatever the counter moves are called. Or even just for tension moves, although those tend to be easy to spot too, unless you stick it in a combo, in which case it won't do as much damage due to the guard meter.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
21:57 / 18.10.05
Does Tekken finally have endings? I remember 2 or 3 just showed all your finishing moves in a row, but I needed to have a story for my favorite white haired badass Bryan Fury. Is 5 the one where you team up with 2 characters?
 
 
Triplets
00:20 / 19.10.05
The endings start with Tekken 3. Bryan beats up a tank!
 
 
The Strobe
09:38 / 19.10.05
I believe, by "team up with two characters", you're referring to Tekken Tag Tournament, which is basically Tekken 3.5. It comes between Tekken 3 and 4. Neither 4 nor 5 feature the tag mechanic.
 
 
The Falcon
17:25 / 19.10.05
And it's not that good anyway.

Yeah, there's defo endings in 3; I had them all.
 
 
Krug
10:21 / 24.10.05
All I did most of my youth was playing fighting games. Started with Street Fighter when I was a kid, moved onto Art of Fighting, Samurai Showdown then to King of Fighters. Virtua Fighter, Guilty Gear, Soul Calibur came along the way and they were transitory. Tekken didnt impress me until the third one.

Tekken and King of Fighters are two games I've played more than any others and I wish I could play them again. It's not fun here since I dont know anyone and can't play with them. People I've met here are rubbish and I can beat them with 50% health and letting them have 150%. I was hoping Tekken 5 would've gone online or they would release the KOF Online games over here like they did in Japan so I could finally get back to playing with my close friends in other countries.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
19:00 / 27.10.05
I am all too familiar with the pain of having no worthy competition close at hand, and can't believe there was no online option for Tekken 5. Aside from the allure of kicking ass on a global level (the closest I've come to something like that is beating a few japanese teens in a Tokyo arcade a couple years ago at Tekken Tag. My taunts were no doubt unintelligible but I'm sure my victory dances got the message* across, as they were performed with gusto under the ghostly, ethereal light of countless display screens), I was aching to see where I stand, skill-wise, with the rest of the world.

That, and I could talk shit to total strangers and then whip 'em. Or get totally murdered. Either way its good times for all.

I haven't got into King of Fighters yet. I'm kind of hesitant. I've heard good things, but everyone I usually play against are already aces at it, so it'd be a while before the matches got interesting.




*"I am a foreign geek with no shame! Fear my Iron Fist!" Everyone stared at me. In fear, obviously, of my Iron Fist. Yeah. Obviously.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
23:36 / 10.11.05
Anyone played Soul Calibur 3 yet? I'm about to. Mmmm. Steel. Tasty.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:28 / 23.05.06
I keep on meaning to write something lengthy for this thread - played quite a bit of Guilty Gear XX Reload and DoA4 between the last post and this one - but I just wanted to put something up quickly to say...

"Street Fighter Zero Anthology: oh my fucking word". There's a thread about it here, but in short, it's every version of SF Zero/Alpha, with every version of every character, plus the versions of those characters from the various VS Marvel games, plus a SF3 style that allows you to parry, plus (apparently) a Vampire style. And all those different characters/styles can be sent into combat against each other.

This is quite likely the geekiest post I've contributed to this part of Barbelith to date, but hell, that sounds like an astonishing package. Like a love letter from Capcom to both the series and its fans.
 
  
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