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Bespoke and made-to-measure - what's your poison and your pleasure? The suit and how it functions for you.

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
15:04 / 18.08.05
Like most people here, I occasionally find it necessary to wear a suit. I probably enjoy this process more than many here, however, and have of late been wondering how you all relate to yours.

This is not so much "do you wear a suit" but rather "how does wearing a suit make you feel, and what kinds of suits do you wear?"

Part of this is a discussion of the comparative virtues of bespoke and made-to-measure suits, along with other forms of suit-creation. I have often yearned for a proper bespoke suit, but since my taste in styles is not adventurous and my body shape is not only unexceptional but designed for suit-wearing it often seems like simple vanity. Made-to-measure may be both sensible and thrifty. Those who have tried either method, please share your experiences here. Recommendations also welcome - I'd like BtB to reference and then add to this thread over the course of his nuptuals.
 
 
A0S
17:38 / 18.08.05
In my previous job I had to wear a suit and having a very slim build I had to get bespoke, not easy on a first jobbers salary but luckily my local tailor was very good and much cheaper than Saville Row. I really enjoyed the whole process of choosing the material, going for the fittings and finally wearing a well fitting suit. I always took my tailors advice and got classic styles which didn't age so I wore my suits for years. Then as I got older I started filling out. My old suits no longer fitted but this period coincided with a change in job to one with a casual dress code.
Since my old suits no longer fitted, I was now a more normal size and I only needed one ocasionally I bought a suit from a high street menswear shop. It's a nice suit but it doesn't feel like a bespoke one and having got out of the suit habbit I must admit I do feel scruffier.
If you are looking at bespoke I would say do check out your local tailor before heading for Saville Row.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:34 / 18.08.05
My local tailor kind of is Savile Row, but it's good advice. I think this is where bespoke comes into its own - for non-standard body types, although it is infuriating that the option is so financially ruinous... did you find that the sense of wearing bespoke was a factoer, Zoskia, or was it just the fit?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
22:11 / 18.08.05
My experiments with mod fashion taught me a little about suits and suitmaking. First thing I learned was that dealing with tailors sucks ass. Maybe it's a U.S. thing, or just a detroit thing, but a lot of guys from the U.K. that I spoke to didn't seem to have the problems I have.

I'm pretty tall n' slim too, so in addition to finding a nice off-the-rack four button suit that fit reasonably well, I still had it waisted. I like my jacket to hug me, dammit. I was totally gonna put a couple vents in the back, but it already had the one, and I ran out of money anyway (it's expensive work, apparently the tailor needs extra material. The guy I went to couldn't help me, but told me he could ask his friend, who does the mayor's shit, to do it. Far more money than I was willing to spend). I still want the two vents, if not just because when you bend over the single vent sometimes opens and frames your ass for everyone to see. I dunno, maybe that's the point, but I'd still rather have two.

I'm lost as to what modern suits are cut like. Probably to make most men seem proportionate, I guess. I only know what I like: waisted, thin lapels, and no pleats in the pants. Butterfly cuffs, if I'm feeling extra mod. It all usually makes me look just as thin as I am, but it's what I like.

Does this discussion also include ties and shoes?
 
 
Smoothly
23:10 / 18.08.05
Well, I'm not adventurous in taste or style, but much like ZosKia, my bodyshape is exceptional enough for it to be difficult to buy a suit off the peg that fits me properly. My limbs are long but my shoulders and waist narrow, so it's a bit of a pig to get the right fit ready-to-wear.

I've talked about this before in Seth's 'Suits' thread, but I'd add a couple of qualifications to what I said there.

First, if you want a classic suit that fits you well, then made-to-measure is almost certainly the smart option. I actually found the number of choices and decisions that need to be made when you start from a blank piece of paper pretty nerve-wracking. I'm not good at making decisions, and it's bad enough picking one cloth from swatches of thousands (and saying 'black' doesn't narrow it down much). But when you have to make decisions about fastenings, stitching and the exact arrangement of pockets, I found myself without enough opinions. Your tailor's going to advise, but as a rule - particularly if you go old school - that advice is going to be very diplomatic. So I'd recommend taking along someone whose taste you respect and who is going to be honest and keep you on the straight and narrow (literally, in this case, IMO).
Also, it can take time. I had three fittings (each a couple of weeks apart), although I don't know if that's typical.

So, bespoke is expensive (although I think this can be overstated - decent off-the-peg suits aint cheap last time I looked) and not the only way to get a well-fitting whistle. But I think there is something a bit special about wearing a one-of-a-kind made by hand. I suppose its a bit like the difference between an original painting and a print. You might not necessarily be able to tell the difference from a distance, but *you* know the difference (and it's ludicrously pleasing when, every now and again, a discerning eye clocks the tell-tale signs).

I still want the two vents, if not just because when you bend over the single vent sometimes opens and frames your ass for everyone to see. I dunno, maybe that's the point, but I'd still rather have two.

Funny you should say that, Tuna, cos I went for two vents and regretted it. I still think just the one looks smarter. I feel a bit equestrian with two. But I'm probably out of touch.

I've never had bespoke shoes, and I didn't even know you could get bespoke ties, but it does appeal. Shirts too.
 
 
A0S
07:41 / 19.08.05
Well I don't have the tall and slim problem, from conversations with friends that build is at least moderately well catered for in the high street. I have the short (5'5") and slim problem.
I agree bespoke is more expensive than the average high street off the peg suit but I recall that when I was buying bespoke there were designer off the peg suits for the same or even more money than I was paying. Personally I would much rather buy a quality than a name.
One advantage of bespoke is that you should get a cut that suits you as you aren't subject to fashion. For example if double btreasted suits are in fashion then that is what will be availible in the high street. Now on someone of my build double breasted suits just look wrong.
That to me is the main advantages of bespoke I can have something that suits me perfectly rather than having to compromise on the best availible off the peg.
 
 
grant
13:57 / 19.08.05
I'm hopelessly cheap, so all of what I own is off-the-rack stuff -- and most of it is thrift store second-hand.

I have a few black tie elements from Palm Beach thrift stores, which are marvelous places for decent clothes (especially right after that April/May period that marks the end of "season"). The problem is the vast majority of it is made for people with different builds than mine -- shorter and fatter. I quite like alterations. It sort of fits the rest of my life (tweaking mechanics & electronics is something I seem to do a lot).

My favorite thing isn't really a suit per se -- it's a jacket, light gray, that I had altered to take a third button. That one change made a world of difference. It's not a gray blazer any more (I can't quite figure out what it was supposed to be, originally -- it really did seem cut to have a third button just under the lapel, above navel level). Fits a vaguely Edwardian/Swinging Sixties vibe, at least for me. It coordinates well with various dark pants -- but since I don't own any matching greys (mine are all darker), it's not really a suit. It also looks nice and vintagey with a waistcoat, but mine are all too tight for me now. I've gone up from a 34 to a 36 waist over the past four years.

If I have to turn up for a formal(ish) event that's not black tie (casual weddings, club openings, whatever), I grab that jacket first over the real suits every time.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:44 / 21.09.05
OK - so we're on phase two - recommenations, kidders? Smooothly, Benny, any thoughts? GGM? I'm wondering about Gresham Blake - the added expense of three or four trips to Brighton is pretty negligible, after all...
 
 
Smoothly
14:02 / 21.09.05
I went to Sam Arkus on Berwick Street. 020 7437 2156.
Bespoke, rather than made-to-measure, and pretty old school, but might be up your street. The tatty shop-front belies a very attentive service and the prices seem (relatively) inexpensive. I think about £700 - £1,000, depending on the cloth etc. Dunno how that compares with GB.
 
 
mondo a-go-go
15:38 / 21.09.05
My friend Chris gets all his suits from a Greek bloke in North London. I'll try to find out where.
 
 
*
16:57 / 21.09.05
Has anyone ever tried an online tailor? I know it's dodgy, but they seem to be well documented, and, well, I'm 5'2" can neither find a made-to-measure within shouting distance of a fit, nor afford a bespoke suit.

An example. (Hmm. I see they've added a "capes and robes" category. How ridiculous.)
 
 
Axolotl
07:03 / 22.09.05
An alternative to an online tailor if you're in the UK (it may be avialable elsewhere, I don't know) is a Hong Kong tailor. They come over here & set up shop in various hotels around the UK (normally London, Manchester, Glasgow) where you go for your fitting and to choose your fabric. They then make up the suit in Hong Kong and ship it to you, often with free alterations available after that.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:32 / 23.09.05
OK - so we're on phase two - recommenations, kidders?

I'm looking to get a bespoke suit made up myself, and have heard quite good things about this guy: http://www.threadneedlemantailors.co.uk/ on the Walworth Road.

He specialises in 60s mod stuff and his prices start around £600 not including material. Not sure if that particular style is what you are after or not. I'm thinking about making an appointment with him and having a chat. He has flyers with photos of him measuring up George Best and Telly Savalas, which was enough to convince me. If it's good enough for Telly Savalas, then it's good enough for me.
 
 
mondo a-go-go
17:12 / 26.09.05
Chris recommends...

I think he once told me that he paid about £400 for his suit. At least, for the one he was wearing at the time, others are probably more or less than that.
 
 
Red Cross Iodized Salt
18:53 / 26.09.05
It's been doing the rounds for a while, but there's quite a bit of interesting information about the bespoke tailoring process on English Cut (the blog of Saville Row bespoke tailor Thomas Mahon).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:53 / 28.09.05
Oh yes - that's a great source. I'm pondering calling him, on the grounds that Anderson and Sheppard themselves apparently tend not to be too sold on people wanting only one suit.

Then again, might be better to accessorise responsibly rather than spunking £1500 on a suit...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:50 / 05.11.05
Anna - I can't seem to get that link to work, and like a fool failed to record it. Could you PM it to me or put it here pls? Also, any pictures of the suitage kicking around?
 
 
Supaglue
09:35 / 09.11.05
Reding this with interest as my work is a very suit-based environment and I've been meaning to invest in a good one that actually fits.

Did you decide to go Bespoke in the end Haus?

If you did want to get made to measure, Herbie Frogg on Jermyn Street is great value and the service is exceptional. The shirts are good too.
 
 
Sax
14:18 / 09.11.05
Slightly un-related but still a suit question.

I have come to work today in a black suit, white shirt and skinny black tie. Mrs Sax's prediction that I would be asked "are you going to a funeral" 73 times has not come to pass.

The question is, do I look like a cock or not?
 
 
Supaglue
15:07 / 09.11.05
Just don't wear shades.
 
 
doctorbeck
12:53 / 23.12.05
i just want to second the recommendation for george at:

http://www.threadneedlemantailors.co.uk/

£400 will get you a stunning made to measure mod suit, with good buttons and quality lining in the colour of your choice, half the price of a paul smith off the peg plus the benefit of his years of experience tailoring the modernist glitterati and a slice of proper south london culture and history to boot, wear if for pie and mash in manzes in peckham and remember you bought it 300 yards from where michael caine grew up

o got a lovely bottle green suit from him 5 years ago and it's still the best bit of clothing i ever bought
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:34 / 11.01.06
Sam Arkus and Threadneedleman Tailors both look lovely, but those who know me know that I would never be able to carry off a mod suit. I just don't have the flair.

I theeenk, after a bit of deliberation, I'm going for Jasper Littman - first meeting on Tuesday to chat over my needs. Neeeeeedssssss. Has anybody encountered him? Heard of him? Have stories to tell? From my researches, he was at Kilgour French and thingummy, and before that Gieves and Hawke. What do you reckon?

Needssss.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:07 / 12.01.06
So what happens on a first meeting with a tailor? What do I need to be aware of? What knowledge should I be armed with to get the best from the experience? How does the process run? If I have a vague idea of what I want in terms of style, colour, general aesthetic - will the tailor (probably going to go for threadneedleman bloke) help me to refine that idea and develop my half-formed sense of a suit into a suit that will conquer all in its path? Or should I actually draw up detailed plans and blueprints for such a device before I go anywhere near a tailor? And if so, where should I start and what do I need to think about?
 
 
Smoothly
12:13 / 12.01.06
Gypsy, in my experience, the first meeting will involve being measured (“On which side does sir dress?” etc) and then a discussion of styles and fabrics. You’ll be asked to choose a cloth and make some basic decisions about the cut and pockets, vents, lining etc, but details like the exact fit, how many buttons you want on the cuff and other fastenings can normally be decided at the fitting stage.

So you don’t need to bring a pattern or specific plans for where your pearl-handled .38 will be accommodated, but do be prepared to have a view on things like pleats, whether you want one vent in the jacket or two, if and how you want a break in the trouser leg, how you like your pockets, whether you want belt-loops etc. Your tailor should be happy to umm and err over this stuff with you and give you advice, but I think I’d have found the array of options a bit less dizzying if I’d given it some more thought in advance.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:48 / 19.01.06
Well, I had the chat in an office of Holland and Sherry today, and it was much as Smoothly described. Issues covered included, from the bottom up:

Trouser cuffs
Pleats - flat front, front or reverse
Fly - button or zipper
Belt loops, brace buttons or side fastenings (and if so buttoned or zipped)
Number of back pockets
Number of buttons on the coat
Buttons - plastic or horn
Cuff buttons - sham or working
Lapel style
Jacket pockets (exterior) - straight or slanted, and extra ticket pocket
Central or side vent

That was about it. Choosing the fabric was the tricky part, really - there really are a terrifying number of possible options. Might be best to have an idea of what you are looking for roughly before you go in... I was aiming for a dark grey herringbone, and that helped to stop me being distracted by the navy birdseye or grey flannel... or white birdseye. W'allah! It is mighty.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:56 / 19.01.06
I was pretty clueless when I walked in - I simply don't know much about how suitmaking has developed since about 1960 - so to a very great extent let myself be guided by his aesthetic. I think to a degree that's decided by the tailor you choose - so, a mod tailor will start from the principle that you want a mod suit, presumably...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:31 / 20.01.06
Did you feel able to give opinions on these things when questioned?

I think that's probably half the battle. For instance, I know how many buttons I want, what the lapels should look like, how many pockets, what colour it should be and roughly what sort of fabric I might want.

But when it comes to questions such as trouser pleats, vents, and whether I want working cuff buttons - I find it incredibly difficult to formulate an opinion. Did the tailor show you examples of what the different options look like on an actual suit?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:30 / 20.01.06
We were meeting at his cloth seller's, so it was a bit limited - I looked at some examples and tried one on, and had already seen photos etc.

Basically, the stuff I wasn't sure about I relied on asking him what, in terms of my body type, he would recommend. In your case, and thinking of your figure, for example, I'd probably go for side vents and a flat front, but a proper tailor tailor might have different ideas. Also, your thighs may be bigger than I think.

It's possible, however, that you just don't care - for example, if you don't really care about whether or not your cuff buttons work, you may as well go far sham for convenience or working for authenticity - cuff holes are put in at the baste fitting, so it doesn't make a lot of difference either way to the process.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:58 / 20.01.06
(by the same token, I can't decide between straight and slanted pockets, because I don't really care)...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:52 / 27.02.06
So have you got the finished suit back yet? Happy with it? Anything you would have changed or done differently in retrospect? Any post-bespoke thoughts, hints or suggestions that you want to share with those who haven't yet been "fitted"?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:13 / 27.02.06
It's still being made - which is a bit of a pain on a number of levels. There was a delay getting hold of the fabric, and the tailors are taking longer with it than first planned, so it looks like first fitting will now be towards the end of March, which is an almighty pain and means that I won't have it for a couple of events. Logic tells me to stick it out and not buy _another_ suit in the meantime, get it altered to an approximation of my body shape and wear that instead of the suits I have.

EMOTION SAYS OTHERWISE.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:31 / 20.03.06
It transpires that my right shoulder drops and that my right arm thus extends 5/8 of an inch further from the cuff of my coat than my left. Even as the gnomes work to account for this deformity, I feel a vague sense of revulsion that not even my ramrod-regular legs can balance out.

On the plus side, even at this stage the suit is looking good, even if my immediate response to putting it on was "very nice - now make my head smaller. Now!" - no buttons yet, which is fortunate given the adjustments demanded by my problem. Words were had over the value of a waistcoat, the matter eventually being settled by the realisation that the value lay in the difference between the cost of the materials and the labour and the moneys I would proffer. That seemed to sort it all out.
 
 
Smoothly
09:58 / 21.03.06
Haus, you freak, I feel your pain. My suit fitting revealed that I was lopsided too. In fact, the OS map of chalky marks resulting from the first fitting spoke of a range of deformities I dared not ask about.

Anyway, a question about cuffs. If you have working cuff buttons, is it the done thing to leave the last one undone? I heard that this was de rigeur from a source I can’t recall, but dismissed it. However, I recently observed a young Italian man, impeccably dressed in a beautiful suit, who had done just that. What’s the story?
 
 
Saturn's nod
08:58 / 22.03.06
I think there's a good argument for bespoke on ethical grounds. If you know the people who are making your clothes, and you can discover whether they are being paid a fair wage for their labour, there's a chance of avoiding supporting sweatshop labour. My present understanding is, if a garment's not made entirely in a country which has strict labour protection laws, it's probably been made under conditions I wouldn't want to work in.

There's definitely an aesthetic to be explored in a choice to have few clothes which you are ethically at ease with, rather than many fruits of misery. Creative frugality, kind of thing.

It can get complicated, trying to follow the supply chain back - who worked the machines weaving the cloth? How was it dyed, did it use heavy metals? Azo dyes? Where did the effluent from the dye factory go? But there are people working on certification - e.g.organic standards for such things, and my view is any move in the right direction is worthwhile. Harris tweed is a great example, for people in the UK - woven by artisans in cottage industry, it's an amazing fabric which is really useful and wearable in our climate.

creative commons - ethics diagram

Here's my diagram attempting to show how I see the interaction of ethics and economics. At the moment it is difficult to get "kingdom" clothing, because of where the market is at, but if enough demand moves that way, it will get easier to get hold of, and the "don't care" stuff will become difficult to get hold of. (Maybe my understanding of economics is a bit naive.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:07 / 30.03.06
Very good and interesting post, which I look forward to addressing in more detail when brane is a bit more online.

To go for the easy one - Smoothly, I confess that your question stumped me slightly, so I asked my tailor. He confirmed that one could indeed wear one's first cuff button open - the main point of this is to communicate that you have working cuffs, say if you are not feeling showy you might want to skip it. He further mentioned, interestingly, that it is sometimes said that the Italian fashion is to unbutton two cuffs, but he had never actually observed any clear differentiation according to geography, as your example seems to bear out.
 
  

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