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Israeli Settlers withdraw from Gaza

Jake, Colossus of Clout

21:54 / 17.08.05

Big doings in Israel today. People being dragged kicking and screaming from their houses, settlers comparing the soldiers doing the dragging to the Nazis, FOX News covering the whole thing and looking very disappointed in Sharon for budging an inch for "terrorists." Because every Palestinian is a terrorist, and the only way to deal with terrorists is to stomp on them until they stop twitching (not a direct quote, but it might as well be).

I'm surprised no one is talking about this on Barbelith already. So, what do people think? Will this make a difference? What do you see the underlying political reasons for this being?

04:52 / 18.08.05

It's complicated and I'm conflicted (in brief summary.) It's difficult for me to view the actions of the Israeli government as somehow good and whole, in honest desire to give back to the Palestinians some of what's been taken. Simultaneously, I'm glad the Israeli government is doing this and I hope it helps to disarm some tension; though I hope the political tension isn't diminished because I think there's a long way to go. I'm sure Sharon is yielding to heavy pressure here, but I think the Israeli left has made huge progress and I hope they manage to make more. I suspect there's good reason other members of Barbelith haven't moved to discuss this (still ruminating), but I'm glad you've brought it up.

Jake, Colossus of Clout

05:33 / 18.08.05

I'm still ruminating as well, really, but I thought talking about this in a forum would make it a little easier. I like to bounce ideas off other people when it comes to complex issues like this. It's nice to have varying perspectives.

I have no illusions that Sharon is doing this out of the goodness of his heart, but what political realities forced his hand? After all, he has, in the past, been a consistent hardline asshole.

This is not going particularly smoothly, either. A zealot settler apparently stole a security officer's gun and killed four Palestinians. Also, a woman doused herself in gas and lit herself on fire.

Organized religion is such a beautiful thing.

07:43 / 18.08.05

I've read that one reason Sharon is doing this (and making a bing thing of it in the wolrd media) is in order to suggest that Israel is being reasonable with regard to the Palestinian issue, while simultaneously strengthening control over other occupied territories.
The other possible reason is that Israel is worried about the increasing number of non-jewish citizens and that by abandoning this area they are helping "correct" that imbalance.

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:28 / 18.08.05

I have no illusions that Sharon is doing this out of the goodness of his heart, but what political realities forced his hand?

Lots of Israeli soldiers being killed and lots of Israeli money being spent protecting a reasonably small number of Israeli settlers, basically. Also that the Palestinians in Gaza were growing in numbers (terrible living conditions contributing to a very high birth rate). Bear in mind that the ratio of Israelis to Palestinians in the West Bank is about 6:1, and compare that with Gaza, where 5-8,000 Israelis, mainly living on the Mediterranean coast, demand government support in an area populated by about 1.8 million Palestinians.

Also, you can give up Gaza without surrendering control of the coast - the Palestinian authority gets the ports, but AFAIK by the terms of this withdrawal Israel maintains legal control over the coastal waters. Again, I think the West Bank, and specifically Jerusalem, are going to be far bigger issues, and I don't see anything more than a token withdrawal of settlers there likely - so far there are plans to vacate 4 of the 120 settlements, yes?

12:59 / 18.08.05

Yeah, it's a tactical withdrawal. The Big Thing everyone cares about is Jerusalem -- will it be a divided city, will my people have a clear land route to get to it to pray. Everything else is just positioning for that.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:02 / 18.08.05

It's not just about prayer, Grant. The West Bank provides a defensive riverbank position with Jordan which would be lost as a border if the occupied territories were abandoned. Jerusalem is another issue again - the PLO claims East Jerusalem as the favourewd site for a Palestinian capital, and the Palestinian Authority treats Jerusalem (in its entirety) as the capital of Palestine, whereas the Jerusalem law of 1980 declared Jerusalem (also in its entirety) as the capital of Israel - a claim identified by the UN as illegal, creating a slightly awkward situation.

If it was just a question of access to holy sites, it wouldn't be much of an issue - all religions have access to their holy sites, pretty much, under Israeli control. the problem is the Palestinian inhabitants of East (or eastern) Jerusalem, while permitted too move freely inside Israel, lose this right if they move out of Jerusalem into the West Bank. In effect, they're stuck. Jordan has abandoned its claim to the West Bank and East Jerusalem, so that's not a huge issue, so the only other option apart from Israeli control of the holy sites is Palestinian control. Sharon is simply not going to go for that, IMHO, but a hypothetical partition would require strong controls on access too the holy sites anyway, which it would not be in the interests of the Palestinians to mess with.

Academic question, however.

15:03 / 18.08.05

i hate the race card, and i don't like mixing emotions and politics, but as a jew i'm finding this story upsetting.

what's really bothering me are these protesting settlers. what a bunch of whiney fucking drama queens. i'm looking at pictures of GROWN MEN crying on the ground because they have to move. i'm hearing these idiots describe the israeli soldiers as nazis, when they're getting fucking compensation packages! i'm not a history buff, but i don't think getting fair market value and moving to the suburbs is quite the same thing as getting packed on a cattle car bound of dachau. fuck.

the fact that these people can't make a very simple sacrifice for the benefit of the country and their people shocks me. these are the people that need round the clock military protection because they desperately need to live in some shitty strip of desert, and won't budge and inch to maybe help dial down all this violence.

sorry for the rant.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:07 / 18.08.05

. i'm hearing these idiots describe the israeli soldiers as nazis

Yeah - the thousands of holocaust survivors living in Israel have apparently been rather underwhelmed by that as well.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

15:19 / 18.08.05

grime the fact that these people can't make a very simple sacrifice for the benefit of the country and their people shocks me.

Well, It probably doesn't help that right up till the point when he came up with the idea of the wall Sharon was encouraging them to settle ever more space to make giving it back to Palestine an unlikelihood.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:36 / 18.08.05

The Gaza security fence was, I think, instigated by Yitzhak Rabin rather than Ariel Sharon. In a sense, the question of giving back is vital. There both is and isn't anything to give the land occupied by the settlements back to, and it is a giving back and a not-giving back. Israel will still control Gaza's borders and coastline, and will be able to exercise military force within its border with impunity. Palestine will still not have statehood per se, nor be allowed to have an army. It looks like the Egyptian border with Gaza is going to become a buffer zone... and, in exchange, this unilateral action has suspended the peace talks and therefre potentially made a proper two-state solution more distant...

16:09 / 18.08.05

Sharon is simply not going to go for that, IMHO,

I think that if he did, he'd wind up like Rabin -- and I think that the religious access/control thing is part of that.

but a hypothetical partition would require strong controls on access too the holy sites anyway, which it would not be in the interests of the Palestinians to mess with.

That's obviously true, but I don't think that'd mean that things wouldn't get messed with by people on either side who are a little more absolutist in their outlook.

I mean, things like the tunnel intifada were about both political/tactical positioning and about whose access to prayer is more important.

All I'm saying is that I think it's the prayer business that attracts the wingnuts and heats everything up. I see the political maneuvering as taking place around the desires for the city -- Gaza, the West Bank, it all revolves around this one thing.

On the other hand, I process a lot of my information on Israel through religious Jewish sources (local news, friends in clergy, my spooking religious right bulletin boards) so my thinking tends to list religionward on this subject anyway.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:31 / 18.08.05

Hmm. And conversely the primarily secular space in which discussions of Israel largely occur in my circle probably underplays it. I think there's still a strong feeling, however irrational, that secure borders are necessary - the answer to the question "what would make Israel feel secure?" remains murky.

19:53 / 18.08.05

>> what's really bothering me are these protesting settlers. what a bunch of whiney fucking drama queens. i'm looking at pictures of GROWN MEN crying on the ground because they have to move. i'm hearing these idiots describe the israeli soldiers as nazis, when they're getting fucking compensation packages! i'm not a history buff, but i don't think getting fair market value and moving to the suburbs is quite the same thing as getting packed on a cattle car bound of dachau. fuck.

>> the fact that these people can't make a very simple sacrifice for the benefit of the country and their people shocks me. these are the people that need round the clock military protection because they desperately need to live in some shitty strip of desert, and won't budge and inch to maybe help dial down all this violence.

I agree - I'm getting tired of seeing and hearing all this. Doesn't anyone there take a long-term view that maybe, just maybe, this is a gesture that might help peace in the long-term? Does EVERYONE think that all that land is theirs by religious decree and they should never ever ever be made to budge, even if it means a potential move towards peace and less meaningless loss of life due to centuries-old hatreds?

I know the Israeli gov't isn't doing this out of pure altruism, but it does signify a real gesture of compromise on the part of Israel. I'd like to believe there's hope for peace after a move like this.

19:59 / 18.08.05

also, an Israeli went into the withdrawal area, snatched a gun out of an Isreali solider's holster/pocket/whatever, and proceeded to shoot 4 Palestinians who were just standing around observing, killing (I believe) 3 and wounding the other. (original news accounts listed 3 as having been shot, later upped to 4). Horrible, just horrible... it really is just gang war-mentality violence. I know it seems very naive and optimistic to believe that there will ever be peace between the two peoples, but the alternative is more senseless bloodshed for generations to come.

22:45 / 18.08.05

I know the Israeli gov't isn't doing this out of pure altruism, but it does signify a real gesture of compromise on the part of Israel.

Or, considering it represents a unilateral move away from the Oslo-agreed peace process and arguably toward Israeli-controlled Gaza becoming "the world's biggest open prison", possibly not.

Tryphena Absent

23:26 / 18.08.05

I'm getting tired of seeing and hearing all this. Doesn't anyone there take a long-term view that maybe, just maybe, this is a gesture that might help peace in the long-term?

I believe the Northern settlements have been left by residents with no problem at all.

05:22 / 19.08.05

The drama queen thing seems about right. I've read that while the settlers were throwing eggs and calling soldiers nazis, that the majority of them also conveniently already had their bags packed and ready.

Is Sharon super- religious2000 like Bush? If not, he should think about secretly destroying some of the shared holy sites and blaming it on aliens or something.

12:50 / 19.08.05

There was an interesting bit on NPR this morning -- an interview with one of the civilian security volunteers, the dudes going out and telling the protesters and the soldiers to calm down and take it easy. This guy was also one of the relocated guys, so he was feeling a little conflicted.

Anyway, the thing that got pointed out in the coverage leading up to that interview is that, apparently, there are quite a few teenagers among the relocated. Israel has a mandatory national service -- a military draft. So in 3 years, there's going to be a population of teenagers (how many, I don't know) who will be compelled by Israeli law to join the army. To become one of the soldiers who just evicted them from the homes in which they grew up. The phrase "permanent change to Israeli society" came up.

The civilian security guy also described the relocation as an open wound on his heart.

They've started bulldozing the empty houses.

(Did that happen when they "reclaimed" land from the Palestinians? The motifs there seem to revolve around Israelis moving into people's empty houses, the Palestinians passing keys down as family heirlooms, etc.)

14:36 / 19.08.05

>> I've read that while the settlers were throwing eggs and calling soldiers nazis,

they were also throwing acid at the soliders. Pretty awful.

17:30 / 19.08.05

-deleted at poster's request-

ONLY NICE THINGS

20:39 / 19.08.05

Thanks, Grime. That was both sensitive and well-researched.

Jake, Colossus of Clout

02:16 / 20.08.05

D'oh! So that's the solution! It was staring us in the face the whole time!

Finderwolf- They were throwing acid? At their own soldiers? Holy fuck, I hadn't heard that. Hopefully they caught those assholes and they're heading for a trial. What do the non-settler Israelis have to say about that? Is there a link?

03:33 / 20.08.05

I heard on the radio the "acid" turned out to be paint thinner (which I know from unfortunate experience can kinda burn when it gets on certain more sensitive skin regions). Still not the nicest stuff to get smacked with.

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

17:27 / 20.08.05

OK, grime completely trolled it...But, hand wringing and sensitive semsibility aside, is there a solution?

What is even the beginnings of such a solution? How entrenched is this hatred-which-is-sanctified-by-history-religion-and-military/political-factors?

At the risk of being really fucking lazy, what the fuck?

01:35 / 22.08.05

From only partly following this latest developments, it seems that quite a majority of youths and teens that have been 'exiled' sneak back in, hopping fences/armed border patrols/whatever and are having late night gatherings at various synagogues/corner stores

To me this is lovely even magical thing. Tragically, I would personally do the same given half a chance. Screw the peace process when you know that eventually you will NEVER be able to wander the streets of your memory again..eventually someone else will rip your past away.

Go Kids Go i say, cause some havoc...just hope the guns stay away from the party.

08:12 / 22.08.05

Don't try this at home, Palestinians.

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:24 / 22.08.05

Yeah - odd how the security fence seems to be surprisingly good at stopping Palestinian suicide bombers, and yet surprisingly bad, if this report is correct, at stopping Israelis. Do the eyeholes only work one way?

Moonweaver - most of the Israeli settlements in Gaza are coastal. As such, anyone climbing over thhe fence would have a bit of a walk ahead of them before they can get to a synagogue. More generally, do you feel that this nostalgia for "the streets of one's memory" is in any way complicated by the fact that these streets were built on land that did not legally belong to your nation? Feel free to research your answer.

16:47 / 22.08.05

hey, sorry guys.

just trying to inject some humour, that's all. i certainly didn't mean to lower the tone or somehow impede all the Noble Work being done here.

18:17 / 22.08.05

Don't you worry, Grime. Noble or otherwise, that kind of humour always serves to jolly us all along.

Haha ha.

Jake, Colossus of Clout

06:43 / 23.08.05

Ho ho. Hilarious.

So we have morons barricading themselves in a synagogue. All that really seems to accomplish is to make the Israeli Army bust out their sweet barricade-destroying toys (made in the USA, baby!!!) and make a scene. It does not make them look sympathetic, it makes them look like preschoolers who don't want to go back to the classroom after recess.

I'm disgusted by these people and their acting the martyr for TV cameras. And, as previously stated, calling the soldiers hauling their moronic asses out "Nazis" leaves them with no credibility whatso-fucking-ever.