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Underground > Art, Fashion & Design >

The greatest painting in Britain?

08:44 / 17.08.05

The poll.

So, following on from the 'Greatest Philosopher' poll they ran, we've now got the 'Greatest Painting in Britain' poll from Radio 4. To my mind, it's a bit of a strange selection, more along the lines of 'which easy to live with painting would you like to have on the front of a birthday card'?

I'm not overly sure the judges have done a great job getting a representative sample of the sheer range of works on show in Britain. Nothing more recent than 1970 for example. I can understand a few off the list leaving me cold, but there's not one that I could actually bring myself to vote for, though at a push i'd take the Manet or the van Eyck. Is the list more representative of what most people are familiar with, as opposed to actively liking, or are these really the greatest 10 paintings and I'm just a philistine who would have preferred a bit of elephant dung?

Plus, is there any painting you'd like to swap into the list instead of one that's already there?

10:26 / 17.08.05

I quite like several of those paintings, and am particularly fond of 'The Fighting Temeraire', even though I know it is a bit obvious. Very surprised that 'Whistlejacket' isn't on the list. And there are other great paintings of the 'great painting canon' type in Britain that could easily have been on the list and aren't - the Botticelli Venus and Mars in the National Gallery, for example, and the Rothko paintings in the Tate Modern. This type of exercise is always a little arbitrary in the final stages, I think, and it's not surprising that birthday-card pictures end up in the top ten - all those people who went for a particular Gilbert and George aren't going to be represented, for example. I don't think it's surprising that nothing after 1970 made it, as the media have concentrated very heavily on installation and conceptual art over the last couple of decades so people aren't very aware of painters - even relatively major British ones like Patrick Heron and Howard Hodgkin.

I read a piece in the Guardian yesterday that discussed how the list had been manipulated by the panel (the example I remember was that they thought a Rembrandt that had been listed 'wasn't his best', and swapped it for another one). So we may not be seeing a completely accurate reflection of the GBP's opinions...

I am not sure I could call these the greatest paintings in Britain, as obviously I have not seen them all, but the paintings that have moved me the most in recent years have been the Cy Twombly 'Four Seasons' at the Tate Modern. You can see thumbnails of them here, but really I recommend everyone not to open that link, but to go and see them for yourselves. I couldn't look at another picture in the gallery after I'd been in the room with them.

10:42 / 17.08.05

I think it's a shame the modern movements even before 1970 aren't really represented -I would have liked to have seen some surrealism or cubism in there, at least. Or some pop art; the Tate Modern has Interior With Waterlillies which would probably have got my vote if I'd known about it. I'd be interested to see the raw data from the poll of the public, though, to see if these movements aren't represented because the votes were split, or just because people who voted didn't choose them...

Goodness Gracious Meme

14:43 / 17.08.05

The list isn't terribly astonishing. Though the appearance of the Henry Raeburn surprises me. I'm imagining that it has a pretty high profile in Scotland, which touches on something a little odd about the criteria as being for 'the greatest painting in Britain', rather than that by a British painter etc.

It depends on voters knowing what's in British collections which skews the voting in a very particular way. eg, I certainly *should* know but had forgotten that the Folies=Bergere was in the Cortauld's collection, and how many people have actually seen The Rake's Progress at the Sir John Soane museum?

I'd certainly want to add the Rothkos in there, but there are several paintings on that list that I love: The Arnolfini Portrait, The Bar At The Folies-Bergeres, the whole of the Rakes Progress sequence(again, did they meld the votes for the individual paintings from the series together, or pick one?).

I guess if it's point is to highlight the quality of what's in UK permanent collections, it's not doing a bad job. It's also arguable that UK collections are far weaker on C20 painting than other periods, hence the lack of representation.

(mind you, I'm particularly ill-suited to this as I can never remember whether stuff I've seen is part of a space's permament collection or not)

Tryphena Absent

22:52 / 17.08.05

I'll probably vote for the Raeburn because I just genuinely love the painting. The contrast between the black and grey catches me. Mind you the colours of The Baptism of Christ and The Arnolfini Marriage really aren't done justice on the site.

I'm disappointed by the Madox Brown... I've seen better work by the same artist and I prefer the later version that's mentioned in the text under the picture. Likewise it's not my favourite Manet.

Oh I don't know, I'm a little hazy as to what we're voting for. If I vote for The Last of England am I voting for the version I actually like or the duller picture that's on the BBC site? It all seems very confusing to me.

09:04 / 18.08.05

Plus, is there any painting you'd like to swap into the list instead of one that's already there?

Yes! I would be happy to replace any one of them with this:

St. John the Baptist Retiring to the Desert (Giovanni di Paolo, 1453. National Gallery, London)

I love every single aspect of this painting (in particular the terrifying little black trees or bushes and the cute little pink houses), including the title. Obviously unintentional but it makes the whole business appear so casual.

"That's me done, I'll be trolling off to the desert for the night. Ooh, mustn't forget to put my toothbrush in my medeival rucksack. Toodle-oo..."

07:46 / 19.08.05

Christ of St. John of the Cross by Dali could have got a look in. Currently housed in the St Mungo Museum of Religious Life and Art in Glasgow.

Although a spot of googling says it will be returning next year to the Kelvingrove Art Gallery (also in Glasgow), which is a shame as (from memory) it dominates a smallish room in this little religous museum and it's like having it in your living room.

13:20 / 19.08.05

Although I personally like many of the paintings on the list, I can't imagine they really are the nations favourites. How many people voted?

Anyway, I'd substitute these for any on the list:

The Battle of San Romano

and

The Uncertainty of the Poet

I love the Uccello....it's a big painting which looks so much better in real life. The perspective doesn't really work and I've often thought that this, combined with the often flat and muted colouring, gives an almost abstract image.

The De Chirico is my favourite painting. On one level its just a bizarre juxtposition. It has an other-wordly sense about it suggesting time travel and alternative realities. Oh and it satisfies my liking for architecture and trains....

19:00 / 29.08.05

I have been to good shows at the Third Eye Centre in Glasow and at the Tate Modern and at the South Bank in the past. Visual Art is cool. I like Francis Bacon, Kandinsky, Modern Art, Raw Art Brut, etc. I have liked the Goya's that I have seen (depicting a skewed Religious sense of suffering and agony) also the Dali. The Dali of Christ looking down at his self-sacrifice is the best. I also like so called Kinetic Art you know where the artists use Tarmac and Bitumen with Textiles to good effect, it feels and has the look. Also saw a wicked set of like Kinetic arts down Devon that were based on agricultural scenes.

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:54 / 30.08.05

Macrophage, do you ever actually read the threads you contribute to, or do you consider this a waste of time that could otherwise be spent rambling incoherently? Please don't waste our time answering that, just consider it.

GGM said:

It depends on voters knowing what's in British collections which skews the voting in a very particular way.

Which I think is probably the defining characteristic and the point of greatest interest in this poll. This isn't the best British painting, but rather the best painting in Britain - that is, the field from which the candidates are selected is limited by history and economics rather than the more traditional geography. Arguably one of those is as arbitrary as the other, but possibly they have different impacts. Is there a British buying culture that is defiining the field here, or is the range of different curatorial aims and tastes so great as to cancel out any quirks?

13:01 / 31.08.05

it will be returning next year to the Kelvingrove Art Gallery (also in Glasgow), which is a shame

i'm not so sure.
apart from the unfortunate incident with the disgruntled taxpayer with the blade, the art galleries at kelvingrove were perfect for it.
if you have been to the galleries you will know that it has enormously high ceilings and one or two really long corridors.
the christ used to hang at one end of one of these long narrow spaces, and totally dominated the room.
that painting is immensely powerful, and the walk up to it from a distance really adds to that power.

i'm hoping that in renovating they have borne this in mind and will once again give it pride of place.

17:16 / 31.08.05

IIRC, Dali's Christ of St John of the Cross used to hang where one of the Art Museum's staircases led up to it. Given the unique perspective in the painting, looking down on the crucified Christ from above, I thought this was an inspired spot of hanging. As you walked upwards to the painting, you looked down on Christ, simultaneously. Sounds like a different experience from seeing it in its present location, although I can see that has advantages too from what Loomis says.

16:25 / 07.09.05

Poll apparently attracted a record number of votes, over 118,000. Turner's "The Fighting Temeraire tugged to her Last Berth to be broken up, 1838" won by a wide margin.

Full scoresheet:
The top ten
1 Fighting Temeraire – Joseph Mallord Turner (31,892 votes)
2 The Hay Wain – John Constable (21,711)
3 A Bar at the Folies-Bergere – Edouard Manet (13,218)
4 The Arnolfini Portrait – Jan van Eyck (11,298)
5 Mr and Mrs Clark and Percy – David Hockney (8890)
6 Sunflowers – Vincent Van Gogh (8603)
7 Rev Walker Skating on Duddingston Loch – attributed to Henry Raeburn (8189)
8 The Last of England – Ford Maddox Brown (5283)
9 The Baptism of Christ – Piero della Francesca (5028)
10 Rake's Progress – William Hogarth (3999)