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The Benefits of Tradition

  
 
Quantum
18:44 / 16.08.05
I was reading Pollack recently, and she mentioned that the greatest teachers spoke from deep within a tradition. A lot of people now are self-initiated, and that's great, but this thread is to discuss the benefits of being part of a tradition.

What do you think?

Here's some related old threads;
Initiation, tradition and practice
Pick'n'mix & Traditional
Self initiation
 
 
LVX23
23:13 / 16.08.05
The benefit that I see is that old traditions work with very deep thoughtforms. The benefit of time and dissemination means that more and more minds have absorbed the mythic structures and given their attention to them. Similarly, older systems have more mass in the collective (un)consciousness, thus the return on investment should be appreciably larger - you're tapping into a lot of aetheric weight when you invoke, say, Horus, versus Buffy. Buffy may have more acolytes but I'd argue that they're all more or less similar compared to, say, Buffy fans in 2000 years from now. A wide shallow channel versus a wide & deep channel. After 2000 years of willful worship, Buffy could be god-like in her own right.

Personally, I like working with ancient and powerful deities more than modern pop stars or "New Money" deities. There's a sense of tapping into something vast and timeless. Nuit, Horus, Hadit, ganesh, Kali - these are some of my faves.

Another aspect is that with older belief systems you have a more reliable road map to follow. With new forms you're often more or less on your own (which can have it's own appeal, of course).
 
 
Unconditional Love
00:08 / 17.08.05
Tradition to me seems to be formed, the territory is already mapped, all hand signals, words and gesture accounted for, tradition also involves conservation of itself for the sake of working practice, but also sometimes just for tradition, social custom. Tradition also operates from a cultural context, traditions generally belong to a culture, or are set within a cultural premise, some becoming syncretic and creating mixtures of tradition.

Something i dislike about tradition is solid forms, exsisting structure, making myself fit to a given form i did not participate in the creation of, i find this very difficult, i find it hard to follow the work of others without adding my own input to the equation, if tradition becomes so formed that it is unopen to allow creativity within the given structure, then i believe tradition becomes sterility. A ritualistic, legalistic nightmare, a bureaucrates wet dream. Tradition for me in that context often provokes irreverant behaviour and action.

When tradition becomes far too solid and fixed it becomes like a monologue, its not open to interaction or communication, it appears to be, but its intent becomes to absorb you within in it, to fill you with itself at the expense of personal will and in extreme cases identity.

When does a system become a tradition? at what point? when two or more people practice the same techniques? or is it constituted by lenght of time in exsistence?
 
 
Unconditional Love
00:25 / 17.08.05
One of the major benefits of personal sorcery (spare) systems is that there is no cultural appropriation involved, no tradition to disrespect and no people to walk all over.

That said, if people are willing to give themselves to a tradition and i believe that is what has to be done to belong to a tradition they can be very life changing powerful vehicles, but i think saying i work within a tradition and actually belonging to one are two different things entirely. I feel you must literally give yourself to the tradition, it becomes your life, or frankly your just play acting.
 
 
Katherine
05:28 / 17.08.05
I think there is a reason for the rise of self initiation which is mostly our culture today. We have what we want when we want it. Many newer books coming out seem to all have the "you can be a HP or super magus in five easy chapters" approach.

Anyway back on track, apart from the above answers traditions are useful especially if they have an offical body (ie Thelema and OTO) as they do have a clear line of degrees, grades and etc for people to follow these are useful because they usually ensure people are developing the essential skills as you go on, rather than a pick and mix approach of I like the of X but not y so I'll skip y. You don't have to much of a choice in some traditions the person teaching you will make sure you do learn everything or you won't make the grade. Rather like a school teacher if they didn't teach you everything they could on the sheets then you wouldn't have passed and like a school student if you don't take the time to study then you won't pass either.

Also being part of a tradition also can give comfort that you're not on your own in all this.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:30 / 17.08.05
I think that anyone working within a tradition who doesn't bring in their own unique creativity, passion, imagination and energy into the mix is engaging in necrophilia. Working in a tradition should be an alchemical marriage where the structures that have been passed down to you are infused with your own unique gnostic revelation of what they mean and how they relate to your life and personal experience. If you're just acting out scripted ritual and not grasping it intuitively and personally, or bringing some of yourself into the mix, then you're not even accomplishing good amateur dramatics let alone good magic.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:57 / 17.08.05
One of the main benefits of traditions - and I'm talking more about traditions that genuinely go back further than the late 19th century - is that they do have things to offer that you can only really experience by immersing yourself in them. They are more than just ethnic spice for the same old thing. There's a whole different cuisine there, and you only get to taste that if you put the time, effort and commitment in to make a proper connection with it and gain an intuitive understanding of it. It's not in books, you can't download a pdf with it in, if you're lucky you can receive some pointers towards it by word of mouth and the oral tradition, but ultimately - you only receive through engaging deeply with the mysteries of the tradition you're appraoching.

The people who tell you that everything there is to know about magic can be found in textbooks and on the internet, only say that because all of their knowledge and understanding of magic has just been gleaned from textbooks and the internet. But they're wrong. There's absolute shit loads of stuff within the mystery traditions of the world that you're not even going to glimpse the coat tails of unless you involve yourself deeply and genuinely with those traditions. Things that, with the best will in the world, you are simply not going to realise exist, let alone get anywhere near, if you just work with the fairly straightforward, largely superficial, mysteries of pop culture archetypes like Buffy or the Fonz.

Cultural appropriation is an issue. But if you're not adult enough to approach another culture's mysteries without pissing all over them, and if you're not interested in learning something new to the point that you are happy to approach it with a beginners mindset and set aside your preconceived assumptions about magic - then you're probably a rubbish magician anyway.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:37 / 17.08.05
There seems to be (massive generalisation alert, awooga) a certain amount of reluctance amongst a lot of magicians in the English-speaking world to engage very deeply with any trad. I see it in my own work: it's only very recently that I've buckled down and tried to get to grips with a particular area of magic. (Well, two particular areas, hoodoo rootwork and the whole Norse thing.)

Why might this be? Is it the lack of a living magical tradition in our culture?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:55 / 17.08.05
I think it might have a lot to do with the widespread reductivism that assumes all magical processes boil down to:

1. Banish
2. Excitatory or inhibatory trance
3. Release
4. Banish

With anything else additional to that being an optional furnishing to get you in the mood and fire up your imagination.

It's self-fulfilling in a way, because if you're not looking for anything beyond that structure, you're probably not very likely to find it. So people don't really see the benefit of going out of their way and working with something to the point that they uncover mysteries that they didn't already know when the started out, or access material that actually revolutionises the way they think about magic to any extent.

This is probably because the vast majority of people who claim to be involved with magic, don't really seem to do a great deal of it. So the simplified, reductivist, plug'n'play version of things gets a larger voice and a larger following than something that might actually be quite demanding and challenging to work with, and that might demand a bit of commitment and willingness to change.
 
 
Katherine
13:10 / 17.08.05
Why might this be? Is it the lack of a living magical tradition in our culture?

It also could be seen as a problem of today's throw away culture rather a lack of living magical tradition. If something doesn't meet your needs and requirements then there will be another tradition around the next corner.

It's weird but I don't see too much information on advantages of sticking with one tradition, working with it and fully taking everything on board. But I do see alot of stuff which all seem to boil down to; 'if it works for you....'
If something doesn't work in that tradition for you then get rid of it. No-one points out that you will alter what you were suppose to be absorbing by ripping out stuff you don't like or should that be ripping out stuff you don't understand?
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:20 / 17.08.05
I think the reductivist approach works in the beginning, its an essential step to teach those new to it that this really does work, its easy to grasp and easy to teach, and doesnt really require a teacher/mentor. Once the sparkles of this are over and its time to move on, i think thats when traditions become useful, more functional.

I also believe its related to a practitioners age (social conception of) By there 30s i think many people in western cultures start to look for a sense of solidity and a place within the community, serving that community in some way. In order to maintain a magickal/spiritual tradition in that environment having a solid notion of belonging helps to formulate that identity, i am working on the premise of psychologically defined values at certain points in life.
I think the age range for this is extending many people are still teens in there thirties, i dont see anything wrong with that.

Tradition also seems to be a reflection of how comfortable a person may be in relation to there community and the kind of comfort zone of self indentification that they wish to surround themselves with.

Tradition is a definite way to say I am something or I am a part of something bigger than me, i belong. An expression of a tribal need to have sense of purpose and place within the community.

The personal sorcery approach, still has its place within these traditional structures, there have and always will be people who dont fit into traditions and communities, not through lack of trying, but simply because there very nature and will is at odds with the values of community, they are and always will be outside. The outsider who finds sorcery attractive should always have that outlet avalible in various media and at no point should a tradition become so restrictive as to remove personal liberty from the individual for the sake of tradition.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:22 / 17.08.05
The lack of a living tradition has lots of knock-on consequences, notably that much of the magic and 'alternative spirituality' related information out there reaches us via the filter of capitalism. The first port of call for the novice (aside from the internet, of course) is generally the local bookshop or new-age retailer. For a book to end up on the shelves there, it doesn't have to be good, it has to be marketable. The most marketable books tend to be the ones that make everything look nice and safe and simple, hence the preponderance of $ilver Ravenfluff and that ilk. This in turn reinforces the plug'n'play model, so that even when the punter gets bored of txt mssge spells and starts looking for something a bit more sophisticated, he or she will end up going for texts that deal in pretty much the same stuff.
 
 
unsubscribe
13:25 / 17.08.05
The simplification of magick was, in my opinion, a necessary reaction to the rather stuffy approach of the established orders. See TOPY, Chaos and all the other spikey little splinters.

My own work has been dedicated to Babalon for the past four years and She has transformed my understanding of magick. My path is the shedding of every drop of blood into the Cup. That is a shade different to a smattering of sabbats and a few scrawled sigils.

In particular the devotional aspect seems missing in many people's work who think they can just dip in and out of pantheons. All very nice if you ascribe to a psychological model, but my experience is markedly different.

Tradition for me comes from establishing a dialogue with something rather than blindly following an age old or ossified system.
Without that dialogue you are just playing.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:26 / 17.08.05
Tradition can also become the need to boil everything down to one view point, one way, one belief.

Changing my mind is the most enjoyable act.
If i become one and stick to one I am limitation, restriction, denial of the other. these are the inherent dangers of unopen tradition. Tradition that is enforced rather than chosen.
 
 
Quantum
17:35 / 17.08.05
Benefit (plural benefits)
-An advantage, help or aid.
-Synonyms: advantage, aid, assistance, boon, help

...so the discussion of how constraining and unhelpful traditions are could go in another thread please, 'kay thanx bye :]
 
 
Quantum
17:37 / 17.08.05
The simplification of magick was, in my opinion, a necessary reaction to the rather stuffy approach of the established orders. See TOPY, Chaos and all the other spikey little splinters. Peter Grey

...in fact that would be a great thread for it.
 
 
ghadis
22:02 / 17.08.05
One thing that comes mind whilst reading this thread is that there is not much mention of the future. Of carrying on a tradition. How do people who are active and immersed in a tradition carry it on? Spread the word? Start a Temple/group etc? Teach their kids from birth?

The kids things is quite interesting here i think. Most of the traditions that people on this thread have talked about have been traditions where, in the past, children have been brought up into that view of the world. Now, i feel, it is almost seen as a form of abuse to indoctrinate a kid from an early age into a particular strong set of beliefs. The best we can do maybe is instill a sense of openness to 'what is out there' and a fluidtity of thought maybe until they are 16 and old enough to make up their own minds.

So where does that leave a Tradition? Are people willing to send off their 6 year old to school in the morning telling them to not forget their morning devotions to Hadit or offerings to Odin or Ganesh or Legba?

It seems that one of the main reasons that we don't have a 'living magical tradition in our culture' is just that our culture is just not set up very well to have one. The idea of the 'individual' is too ingrained to shake loose. The threads on the idea of 'Guru' spring to mind. Perhaps the idea of 'to question' that is, arguably, ingrained into our western mindset from classical philosophy is moulded into something a lot more cynical than it should be.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:50 / 17.08.05
It's a tricky question, no doubt about that.

For people who believe in negative consequenses from not following a certain religion in a certain way--eg., those who believe that we are damned for eternity unless we accept Jesus as our personal saviour--I guess the matter is simple. Junior simply must be taught to worship in that faith, because if not ze could die and go to hell.

For those who don't concieve of anything terribly dire happening to one after death just because one hasn't worshipped the 'right' God/Goddess/Gods, it's less clear cut. I guess the positive benefits to teaching the child your faith would have to be weighed up against possible infringement of hir right to find her own way. I think 16 is a bit overcautious, myself; most kids are asking the Big Questions (life, death, body, spirit, faith) by the time they're 7 or 8. (It was about that age that I began to take a serious interest in magic and spirituality.) That might not be a bad age to explain "This is what Mum or Dad believes" as well as introducing Junior to some other belief systems in a respectful way (including atheism, of course). So long as parents aren't putting pressure on the kid, so long as they make hir aware that ze's not going to lose their love or their affection over hir choice of faith, I don't see the harm in that at all.
 
 
ghadis
23:29 / 17.08.05
Totally agree MC. But that leaves us with the question of how the ideas and beliefs of a Tradition should be handed down and on to others. I feel that if a particular Tradition or Path has become so important and ingrained in a persons way of life then they should, in some way, pass it on. Indeed, it's their duty to pass it on! Otherwise it becomes a case of 'hey look what i've found! it's great, it works for me!'. Of course these traditions and ideas will hopefully carry on without us but there should be some sort of flag waving if not a full out recruitment drive!!
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:52 / 18.08.05
Something i dislike about tradition is solid forms, exsisting structure, making myself fit to a given form i did not participate in the creation of, i find this very difficult

I can really emphasise with you on this but in addition I found it incredibly difficult to connect with an entire tradition. Some parts would feel right but my instincts would light up with a flashing no sign quite often at vital moments and I couldn't immerse myself because it just didn't feel right.

The benefits of feeling comfortable (as comfortable as you can) within a tradition have always made me incredibly envious. Primarily the ability to communicate in a pre-created shorthand about your magical experiences. That would be a wonderful thing to possess and I often feel sad watching people talk to one another and understanding each other immediately because they're working within the same tradition.

It's very lonely to be an individual without a shared culture in any framework, including a magical one.

There seems to be (massive generalisation alert, awooga) a certain amount of reluctance amongst a lot of magicians in the English-speaking world to engage very deeply with any trad.

And to this I've only got one thing to say- you don't enter the tradition, the tradition calls you.
 
 
Quantum
10:49 / 18.08.05
Primarily the ability to communicate in a pre-created shorthand about your magical experiences

Goodness yes. A common magical language (well, paradigm, you know what I mean) I think is the biggest strength of any tradition, as it leads to the sense of community.
(More anon.)
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:08 / 18.08.05
I dunno, most of the people I know who are into this stuff and make up my immediate community are into completely different stuff to me. They work in very different traditions and speak a different and equally complex specialised language. But I find that really good, as it leads me to understand what I do from another trads perspective and vice versa. It's often the differences between traditions that are more enlightening than the similarities.
 
 
Quantum
11:58 / 18.08.05
a different and equally complex specialised language

Absolutely, the interaction with other traditions throws light on your own, but that language comes from the tradition they share. Those ronin/lone wolves/unique magicians have to devise their own expression of what they're doing, reinventing the wheel.
 
 
rising and revolving
16:59 / 18.08.05
"The benefits of feeling comfortable (as comfortable as you can) within a tradition have always made me incredibly envious. Primarily the ability to communicate in a pre-created shorthand about your magical experiences. That would be a wonderful thing to possess and I often feel sad watching people talk to one another and understanding each other immediately because they're working within the same tradition."

True, but I don't think anyone just walks straight into being comfortable with a tradition. While I don't suggest that people should embrace the things that trigger their "don't go there" warning lights, I do feel that a process of submission to the mysteries of a trad is a necessary part of working inside it.

Working past that discomfort, putting aside your misgivings and just experiencing what will be on it's own terms - that's a big part of what makes a tradition worth engaging with. If you approach the essence of an experience and don't get anything that makes you uncomfortable, then it's not much good.

Which isn't to say there's not a difference between the ego balking at the things it sees and the higher self (to work inside that paradigm) saying "don't go there!" - and that an experienced worker should be able to tell the difference.

I don't really know. I'm syncretic but not chaotic in my work, and that puts me on the other side of the fence to almost everyone here - and these days most of my work is prayer, rather than results based. But that's the way my tradition takes me, so that's the way I'm going.

"One of the main benefits of traditions - and I'm talking more about traditions that genuinely go back further than the late 19th century - is that they do have things to offer that you can only really experience by immersing yourself in them."

I would argue that this is entirely true of Golden Dawn work, too (which is what you're referring to, right?) - I'm not saying GD stuff is equal to or equivalent to working with older trads, not at all. However, I think that the GD is often misrepresented by both its adaption to a solo system (which it is not) and it's widespread appropriation by most of the fluff that's come in the 20th century.

Nonetheless, it does have it's own mysteries and it's own depths. Which you can only really appreciate by immersing yourself in them. I'm not sure you've done that (although I do know you've worked within it's frameworks) but I do get the feeling you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater due to the fact that you've found something that obviously works much better for you.

Remember kids - it's not necessary to denigrate someone elses mysteries, whether they be faux-wicca, sigils, etc in order to prove that your mysteries have depth and worth. I don't know that I've learned much in the years I've been doing this stuff, but I've learned that much - everytime I get cocky and feel I've found the "way" I realise there are others who have their own way - and that it works.

There's a hell of a lot more going down than I understand - and every model I've made has been broken by someone.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:49 / 18.08.05
Is tradition a form of conditioning? If so what value is there in being programmed and conditioned in a certain way?
Whats the beneficial value of conditioning ones self to a particular world view?

Is their a tradition of deconditioning? Or does that imply an oppositional paradox?

Are traditions representative of established functional cultural techniques that remain established because they work?

Could it be that the solidity of traditional formats act as a great benefit to the appearence of a well formed identity, adding to an overall sense of character within an individual?

Is there any sort of common magickal language within spiritual traditions? Or are there as many disagreements within traditions as there are between traditions?

The benefit of tradition could be seen as placing one self in a place of comfort yet also in a place of conflict, against that which is percieved to be alien to the tradition or at odds with its core philosophy. From this stand point one gets to experience security, fear and hostility, a kind of personal conflict exteriozed through a belief system. A reprogramming of flight and fight through devotion reinforced through peers. It would seem to me to be beneficial to experience this impulse through culture rather than say directly as a nerve function, The tradition then acts as a buffer to direct experience, reinforcing the value of the belief /tradition itself. thou this could be couched in negative terms if direct experience is the individual intent.

I think the overall benefit of tradition for me would be comfort, security, self assuredness and perhaps the biggest opiate, i dont need to think, all i need do is follow tradition, very beneficial if you are seeking a very easy life.

Is magic a tradition? or are there spiritual/religous traditions that contain magickal elements/technique?

Are the habits of an individual there personal traditions?
Some habitual behaviour is very beneficial.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:16 / 19.08.05
I would argue that this is entirely true of Golden Dawn work

I wasn't saying otherwise. My experience is fairly limited in Golden Dawn temple style stuff, so I'm not really at liberty to talk about that with any degree of confidence. I only made the pre-19th century comment because when people talk of "traditions" there's often the implicit assumption that the conversation is about the Golden Dawn and its contemporaries. I wanted to widen that to take in things that are genuinely thousands of years old, but living and evolving, like Vodou, Tantra, and so on.

It's not necessary to denigrate someone elses mysteries, whether they be faux-wicca, sigils, etc in order to prove that your mysteries have depth and worth

No, but I feel it is necessary to talk about this stuff because so much of the literature about magic paints the impression that the surface elements of things like sigils and faux-wicca are more or less it. I think that there's value in communicating the sense that "The Mysteries" are not located in books or in the paddling pool of armchair dabbling, but only reveal themselves through the work. It doesn't really matter what "tradition" you do this within. Even if you're working in a self-created system, there has to be a point where the magic takes over, where the mysteries start reaching through the framework, where it ceases to be a self-gratifying symbol system and comes alive.

I think all of these accusations of traditions being somehow restrictive and limiting are just broad and not particularly useful generalisations. At the level of the individual practitioner, you've either got it working or you haven't. You're either making good music or you're not. You've either made a tasty dinner for yourself or you've burnt the toast. You can trundle through, say, the Golden Dawn material as a set of empty gestures and passionless circumambulation without giving any of yourself to it; or you can make it come alive, put your heart and soul into it, allow the Mysteries to reveal themselves through its structure.

To draw the perennial martial arts analogy, it's all down to the person not the style. Certain styles are better adapted for certain specific circumstances, but a seasoned boxer is always going to twat a lacklustre ninja. A good magician is a good magician, and a shit magician is a shit magician.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:14 / 19.08.05
id like to take a tradition technique that belongs to many ancient systems and look at its benefits in a traditional context and also its modern adaptation. Sigilisation. I think this is a far more broad area than chaos magic, which i think defines it in a very limited way. I think the personal sorcery of mr spare has alot more to offer than the chaos magic approach to sigilisation, although many people draw parallels between chaos and spare they seem totally unfounded to me, from what ive read over the years, spare was in no way a chaos magician. Spare seemed to work within a system of personal sorcery which very much became a tradition for him in its own right.

I would contend that sigils exsist in the form of mandalas, vevers, talismans and various other formats within traditional cultures, that the roles they play within the given cultures have much more to do with sacred function and sacred space and the overall definition they have within a traditional context. I think this is the approach that spare took to his own personal tradition of personal sorcery and has little to do with the post modern phenomena of chaos magic, although chaos magic may draw upon older reference points for its cohesion, it in some ways dishonours the intent of there creators. This is to be expected in some degree as chaos magic has been characterised by the times it was created in and the prevailing ideas and cultural influences surrounding the abstract phenomena.

The modern returning to traditions is also characterised by the times we are living in and prevalent values in our cultures, especially within a political, cultural and sociological context. People are embracing multiculturalism in one degree or another, wether it be through media, personal involvement in the community or how ever best they can accomodate the awareness. For magical practitioners this would be the exploration of spiritual/magical activity from a variety of cultures.

Sigils removed from Personal/cultural traditions have a tendency to become like logos, acting as a magicians brand.
When immersed in a traditional approach the sigil retains its sacredness as a connection, a form of communication between the practioner/devotee and the eternal divinity.
As a brand the magician employs the sigil as they would a pair of trainers, functioning foot wear, with the recognition that such a brand will hopefully bring the right attention.

Without the encompassing immersion of a traditional personal/cultural system, the sigil takes on the characteristics of the dominant western cultural mainstay, where sigils become attractive identity points for associated values and meanings of consumption.

Sigilisation should act as an act of sacred communication through the sacred space of the mind of the magician, others disagree.
 
 
grant
13:37 / 19.08.05
The kids things is quite interesting here i think. Most of the traditions that people on this thread have talked about have been traditions where, in the past, children have been brought up into that view of the world.

 
 
Quantum
17:40 / 19.08.05
Hmm, Starhawk. She seems nice, but changing one's name to anything even remotely like 'Silver Ravenwolf' sets off alarm bells for me.

Is tradition a form of conditioning? If so what value is there in being programmed and conditioned in a certain way? (wolfangel)
Is learning a language a form of conditioning? Well yes, but that's kind of missing the point- it's not *constraining* you, it's *empowering* you.

Whats the beneficial value of conditioning ones self to a particular world view? (wolfangel)
You can't escape having some sort of world view. If you are conditioning yourself consciously, according to your own will, you avoid being conditioned by your surroundings and the will of others. The benefit is that you are acting instead of being acted *upon*.

On a slightly different note, it allows you to talk to others about things that are hard to talk about, learn from others and share your knowledge, get inspired and see directions you hadn't imagined, network with other magicians, assess what the strengths and weaknesses of your technique are, get an objective perspective from others, arrange group work, source materials...

Consider a parallel to a physical skill, say Juggling for example. What's the advantage of joining a juggling club? Why become 'conditioned' by the juggling styles of others? Well, you learn that the thing you do with three balls is called a 'cascade' and everyone can do it, you can learn 'Mill's Mess' the easy way, you meet a guy who can bounce a 7-pattern off the floor with powerballs, you discover fireclubs exist and arrange a fireclub-passing show with a new friend who's obsessed with the same thing you are, you try on someone's hat and decide to get a costume etc. and suddenly your ability to juggle three apples and impress your Nan seems a bit...lame.

There is a terrible tendency in magicians to think that they are the Gods' gift to the world, anyone else (especially older or respected) is the foolish drone of an outdated system that needs to be torn down. Again I say, why reinvent the wheel? Working entirely alone is not the best technique IMHO.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:58 / 19.08.05
The idea is not to reinvent the wheel.
Instead something that is not the wheel at all, that does not require invention.
The idea of having conditions is excellent if you percieve growth as solid jumps, that growth must meet certain conditions to grow.conscious judgement then pin points the conditions.
A fluid movement requires an environment to express itself within, it is not contained by conditions or limited by self imposed conditions, it evolves unconditionally, the premise is not based on conditional steps, but the evolutionary will, it happens, it just is, no conditions have to happen that arent already inherent in what it is.

I see your points and appreciate there values, my comments need more accurate expression, as some traditions do indeed contain a sense of fluid motion, although many dont, the conditions are set, the tradition becomes exclusive rather than inclusive of a totality, ie the world view is conditional to the belief structure. its possible to be consciousless without becoming unconscious, beneath the terrain of conditioned conscious the realm of all tradition lies will, it isnt bound by cultural,social conditions or traditions, its nature without the conception of nature.

It is not bound, it is pure potentia, formless, void in its face all tradition, all creation has not, isnt. I am not, would be an expression of it. I am not.
 
 
Quantum
10:45 / 20.08.05
So working alone *is* the best technique, you think? Apologies, I'm having trouble comprehending exactly what you mean- could you dumb it down for me?
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:08 / 20.08.05
Not nessecarily, as it goes i am currently debating over thelema and buddhism or perhaps a combination of the two and getting out to those organisations seperate or otherwise.

I have been examining my own motivations for wanting to be part of something, and the internal changes that occur within me when i have tried to become part of traditions in the past, some part of me gets lost when i get involved with a formal structure and that part of me is self definition, i am guessing what i have written in this thread one way or another is an expression of that, and examination of that issue for me. Their is a fear of becoming something greater than myself yet also a rushing to meet others, i think what i am deciding for myself is that i need to take a more complimentary approach than that i need to be more equally involved with myself and the tradition i choose to work in, and looking at it thelema contains that focus more so than any other tradition. That is in all probability my next port of call.
 
 
grant
00:35 / 21.08.05
Hmm, Starhawk. She seems nice, but changing one's name to anything even remotely like 'Silver Ravenwolf' sets off alarm bells for me.

Yeah, it's a pretty goofy book, but a fairly good source of ideas for *some* kinds of ways to mark the days with kids. My better half's kind of into it.
 
  
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