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Sincerity

  
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:07 / 16.08.05
Hexagram 61 of the I Ching is Chung Fu, Inner Sincerity. Many translations go with Inner Truth. In Zen there is also Shi Sei, which in Japanese means "sincerity," "devotion," "wholeheartedness." The first character shi means "to arrive," in this case with the connotation of "aspire to." The second character sei can also be read as makoto, "the real thing."

Along with Hexagram 15, Humility, this is one of the most important cornerstones of much of Eastern philosophy and practice, including relatively opposite schools like Taoism and Confucianism. I'd like to explore the meaning of it.

At it's heart, I think it is probably the most difficult and insurmountable problem in practical application of any teaching, but particularly in the no-mind teachings of say, Taoism and Buddhism, or Advaita. The reason for this, of course, is that the ego, the separate self, is incredibly insincere. I would imagine all of us have had the experience of knowing exactly what we should be doing, what is required, what is the correct action, but wilfully going against it because it is what 'we' really want to do...a top of the ehad example would be that classic supplication to the fates - spinning a coin. And then refusing to accept the outcome and going against the result or heading for best of three/five/whatever is required to get the result 'you' wanted in the first place - which is often the antithesis of what you should really be doing, hence the intention to flip a coin in the first place...It is easy to rcall situations in which the inner voice says 'no' and the ego insists on 'yes', or the inner voice advises 'enough' and our will recklessly plunges ahead with 'more'.

Sincerity is the hardest thing in the world. Sincerity requires the admission that there is no time at all...the insincere have all the time in creation to bring about whatever they intend, have ample time to achieve a goal begin a project, finish a project, whatever...the sincere have no time at all, are completely out of time (in every possible interpretationof that phrase). It should be, and really 'is', very easy, requiring nothing more than the innate functional nature to listen to one's being/body/instinct and follow it without trying - step out of the way. But actually, this turns out to require enormous disciplne and, yes, courage.

This notion lies at the heart of practically every spiritual teaching. If I may:

Sincerity is the single virtue that binds divinity and man in one - Shinto. Jingishoju

It matters not whether you do much or little, so long as your heart is directed to Heaven. - Judaism. Talmud, Berakot 17a

A man becomes pure through sincerity of intellect; thereupon, in meditation, he beholds Him who is without parts. - Hinduism. Mundaka Upanishad 3.1.8

Sincerity (ihsan): You should worship God as if you saw Him; for although you do not see Him, He sees you. - Islam. Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 2

Through the best righteousness,
Through the highest righteousness,
May we catch sight of Thee,
May we approach Thee,
May we be in perfect friendship with Thee. -
Zoroastrianism. Yasna 60.21

No matter how dark, the hand always knows the way to the mouth. - African Traditional Religions. Idoma Proverb (Nigeria)

Mind is the forerunner of all evil states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, because of that suffering follows one, even as the wheel [of the cart] follows the hoof of the draught ox.

Mind is the forerunner of all good states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, because of that happiness follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves. - Buddhism. Dhammapada 1-2

What a man thinks, that he is: this is an old
secret...When a man, having freed his mind from sloth, distraction, and vacillation, becomes as it were delivered from his mind, that is the highest point. - Hinduism. Maitri Upanishad 6.34.3-7

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might. -
Judaism and Christianity. Deuteronomy 6.5

OK, we get the point...

The I Ching itself contains extra layers of meaning, including symapthy / forgiving heart...The image is that of firm strong lines hiding yielding yang lines - of a rigid exterior containing a forgiving heart, thus a judge (apparent firmness) protracting discussion due to a forgiving heart and thus "..delay[ing] executions". This perhaps has some parallels with Christian ideals also...

The mutual Gua for Inner Sincerity is Hexagram 27, Ji, Nourishing...Nourishment of the body and mind with that which actually provides nourishment, not distraction, not sensation, not debased and nihilistic pleasures, but actual food, for the mind, body and soul, to coin a phrase ('coin', do you see what I did there? ;-)). The hexagram itself indicates the mouth. The topmost line of this hexagram is correct in its position, and implies 'it will be advantageous to cross the great stream' - the task is hard and the responsibility great; but realising these things, one will prove oneself equal to them...which realtes very directly to Sincerity, 61.

I think I'm rambling a bit, but would be intersted to hear of any practice or system for cultivation of sincerity...I mean, at it's base, it simply means following the clear and natural path of what your body wants, nourishing, nourishing. But this can be the hardest thing, eh? Many distractions.
 
 
illmatic
11:43 / 16.08.05
Fantastic topic, mate.

I'm guessing that you want this broader than an I Ching discussion, bu I think it's worth sticking in Wilhelm's translation:

61. Chung Fu / Inner Truth

above SUN THE GENTLE, WIND
below TUI THE JOYOUS, LAKE

The wind blows over the lake and stirs the surface of the water. Thus visible effects of the invisible manifest themselves. The hexagram consists of firm lines above and below, while it is open in the center. This indicates a heart free of prejudices and therefore open to truth. On the other hand, each of the two trigrams has a firm line in the middle; this indicates the force of inner truth in the influences they present. The attributes of the two trigrams are: above, gentleness, forbearance toward inferiors; below, joyousness in obeying superiors. Such conditions create the basis of a mutual confidence that makes achievements possible. The character of fu ("truth") is actually the picture of a bird's foot over a fledgling. It suggests the idea of brooding. An egg is hollow. The light-giving power must work to quicken it from outside, but there must be a germ of life within, if life is to be awakened. Far-reaching speculations can be linked with
these ideas.

THE JUDGMENT

INNER TRUTH. Pigs and fishes.
Good fortune.
It furthers one to cross the great water.
Perseverance furthers.

Pigs and fishes are the least intelligent of all animals and therefore the most difficult to influence. The force of inner truth must grow great indeed before its influence can extend to such creatures. In dealing with persons as
intractable and as difficult to influence as a pig or a fish, the whole secret of success depends on finding the right way of approach. One must first rid oneself of all prejudice and, so to speak, let the psyche of the other person act on one without restraint. Then one will establish contact with him, understand and gain power over him. When a door has thus been opened, the force of one's personality will influence him. If in this way one finds no obstacles insurmountable, one can undertake even the most dangerous things, such as crossing the great water, and succeed. But it is important to understand upon what the force inner truth depends. This force is not identical with simple intimacy or a secret bond. Close ties may exist also among thieves; it is true that such a bond acts as a force but, since it is not invincible, it does not bring good fortune. All association on the basis of common interests holds only up to a certain point. Where the
community of interest ceases, the holding together ceases also, and the closest friendship often changes into hate. Only when the bond is based on what is right, on steadfastness, will it remain so firm that it triumphs over everything.

THE IMAGE

Wind over lake: the image of INNER TRUTH.
Thus the superior man discusses criminal cases
In order to delay executions.

Wind stirs water by penetrating it. Thus the superior man, when obliged to judge the mistakes of men, tries to penetrate their minds with understanding, in order to gain a sympathetic appreciation of the circumstances. In ancient China, the entire administration of justice was guided by this principle. A deep understanding that knows how to pardon was considered the highest form of justice. This system was not without success, for its aim was to make so strong a moral impression that there was no reason to fear abuse of such mildness. For it sprang not from weakness but from a superior clarity.

(Taken from here)

I think I actually like the translation of "truth" rather than "sincerity" here. "Truth" seems to me to carry more weight, somehow, perhaps because we're simply not used to "sincerity" touching the depths - we miss the added impact of the word "inner" gives the phrase.

Following on from where you mention listening to your body - this reminds me of NLP ideas of congruence, that is opening yourself to internal feelings as a way of judging the truth or otherwise of certain statements or questions we ask ourselves. If something jars - produces discomfort - then it's incongruent. If it's congruent, it should produce pleasurable, "aligned" feelings. Put down like this it sounds a bit like just another "technique" but I think the idea holds a lot of validity.

As a hexagram, I've had this turn up a number of times to help me get over my internal "pigs and fishes". The one time I really recall probably because it had the most powerful effect was in relation to a cousin of mine, when she was terminally ill with cancer. We weren't that close, but I'd always liked her. Some photos exist of her playing with me when I was a kid, which maybe explains the fondness. Being enamoured in an immature way with magickal ideas at time, I was pondering "healing stuff", even though on one level I think I knew this was wildly inappropriate - subordinating someeone else's deeply serious personal tradegy to your sad little magical psychodramas. I cast the I Ching, and received "Inner Truth" - can't recall the lines right now, or what it changed into. As a consequence of this, I dropped all the magical stupidity and just wrote her a letter, where I expressed honestly how sad I was that she was ill and my hopes for her recovery. That was the last contact I had with her - can't recall if I got a letter back or not. But I think the I Ching prompted me to give a much deeper, honest and involving response than I would have done otherwise.

It's things like this that make me down on magical ideas which seem to promise the user "powers", rather than talking in the gravity of certain situations, and acting appropriately. A rescue fantasty is much less challenging than sincere action.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:45 / 16.08.05
I find this to be one of the most difficult things to cultivate in anyway, this along with integrity which to my understanding are both highly related.

I have been blagging and scamming for alot of my life, mainly authorities, and find it useful to be able to shift shape to adapt to the rules being placed upon my current exsistence and bend or warp them to my own ends. If this is in the context in being sincere and integral to others i fail miserably, it is one of my misgivings. But within the context of a purely selfish context i have a sense of self integrity and sincerity, by being as true as possible to my inner nature, which i often find is in conflict with various social beliefs hence insincerity to what i percieve to be authority.

I think it comes down to betrayed trust and misplaced trust, trust also seems to be and important value in relation to sincerity, and learning to trust others would perhaps allow me to be more sincere and gain a sense of integrity. Because i have a had tendency to trust implicitly in the past rather than intelligently, i have learnt to exercise a great deal of caution in who i trust.

Honesty would also be another value i find challenging, especially concerning those who would percieve themselves more powerful than me, writing this, this highlights the overall value of equality to me and mutual respect, i find these feelings missing in much of my everyday life and interactions with others.

What seems to be prevalant is competition and condemnation, so i react by cunning and cheating.

I can only really say that the way to sincerity for me is to be true to myself and my values, to be honest with myself and live in my feelings, being sincere with other human beings, depending on circumstance, is another matter entirely.
 
 
doctorbeck
14:10 / 16.08.05
illmatic makes what i think is a lovely point about sincerity:

>I dropped all the magical stupidity and just wrote her a >letter, where I expressed honestly how sad I was that she >was ill and my hopes for her recovery

which lead me to think about how sincerity in our dealings with others comes from and it seems from his post and a bit of quick between patient reflection that it is keenly linked to empathy for others, to a sense of their trials and sufferings, to an understanding that they are as profound as your own, what is called Theory of Mind i suppose although it strikes me as something deeper than that. Compassion maybe? And if it is compassion and empathy that are prerequisites for sincerity then i remember there are some Zen meditations on compassion that might help this develop.

i have to say that as someone who works with mentally ill kids having too much empathy is just painful and i have developed a degree of being cut off from that, and by default sincerity, to cope with it at times, but this gets swept away, at least weekly i suppose, by something or other when you are faced with the lives of others.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
14:21 / 16.08.05
It almost always crops up for me in the most interesting ways as well, Illmatic...I find it to be the most common Gua for instances when I really, if I'm to be straight about it, don't especially need the oracle at all, and have turned to it in a sort of ritualised or unnecessary moment, but with honest intent...Although recently I cast it and it has been a point of meditation since...For whatever reason, it has been present with me as a thought-form which I have somewhat bemusedly watched myself blatantly disregarding in my general conduct, which is...odd. A little conflict, of sorts, between ego and instinct.

Interesting that you mention society and (perceived) authority there, circles...I tend to think of the ego (thinking/experiencing structure) as enourmously stained and discoloured from it's useful, natural state by, to a lesser degree, personal experience and the memory bank of one's individual life experience, and, to a huge degree, the culture put in there since birth - that is, the experiences, thoughts and feelings of everyone else ever...expressed as and through culture...

Looked at this way, in many instances of day-to-day existence, the call for inner truth, or sincerity, will be the struggle between natural 'being', acting naturally, and according to the principles of Tao, Heaven, God whatever, and culture - the thoughtforms and habitual needs/desires/actions resulting from immersion in a culture largely at odds with the natural functioning of the organism...

Seen from this vantage point, 'culture', the values and beliefs collectively taken on trust and through imitation since birth, begins to take on almost sinister mythic appearances, as some sort of symbiote disease functioning within the brain...It is put there in the service of society, not the individual, and when society begins to accurately resemble Kali Yuga, it's probably up to no good...so the thinking mechanism is in charge of a beautiful system and filling intent with stupid wishes and decadent desires to no purpose that can be translated as useful for the organism at all...

Blimey. Tied myself in knots trying to get that out. At work, so will have to think it through some more to express accurately what I'm trying to get at, here.

In essense, I'd say sincerity or Inner Truth flows from a source other than 'mind'. Mind is that against which Chung Fu is caught in struggle (mind here being everything you have committed to memory of your thoughts feelings and experiences along with those of everyone else before you which makes up your culture, and through which you experience). And, if this is so, is it, in fact, possible to 'intend' cultivation of Inner Truth? (since the intent is born from within that against which Sincerity is pitted against).

If not, then we're back to bloody Wu Wei again, aren't we?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:45 / 17.08.05
Note : It would be great to broaden this outside the I Ching, but while we're there -

Interesting that the two sephirah relating to the two trigrams making up this hexagram are Chesed and Hod (8 & 4), which correspond to 'Measuring' and 'Perfection' within the 32 paths of wisdom...Inner Truth / Innermost Sincerity = Measuring Perfection.

The planets associated with these are Mercury (Hermes), also the winged messenger, guardian of cross-roads, bringer of dreams and ideas, and Jupiter (Zeus)...

Ill - I know what you mean about 'Truth' rather than 'Sincerity' and it makes sense based on the fact that two yin lines are inside 4 yang lines since Truth seems to be a more receptive thing, something external which is received, but that's what I like about 'Sincerity' - it flows outwards from within...perhaps because the 'hole' is there, no block, beginner's mind, unprejudiced, to allow the natural life to express itself, uncluttered by mind.

Hmm.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
10:30 / 29.11.05
Eeenteresting returning to this, now...Have definitely seen vast improvements in my own sincerity on my own path, tbh.

Not sure how this has come about, other than by clear intent, this thread, and lots of yoga. I have blown my old self away this month with my discipline as regards diet and abstinence. It's kind of easy, really...you have an idea, express it as an intention, you see it through. Sincerity.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:39 / 29.11.05
Well ive been sincerly trying to help mental health issues and been doing that on a voluntary basis for a time, i went to a job interview last week and today was offered the job as voluntary work, i was expecting paid employment.

So my efforts and sincerity to a cause havent paid off, as per usual, and they want to carry on employing me after i have proved what i am worth without giving me what i am worth. So ends another fruitless endeavour.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:41 / 29.11.05
How do you know it is the end of the endeavour?
 
 
Morgana
13:33 / 29.11.05
Doesn't the spiritual concept of sincerity simply exclude the expectation of getting something in return in everyday life? I'd think the "reward" of living your inner truth lies on a different plane, like e.g. feeling more at home with yourself.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:46 / 29.11.05
Exactly. Expectations do not sit inside a humble and sincere body, expectations always have to be dismantled in order to experience what is actually occurring. A mindful person is intent on what is, not on what they would like to be.

What 'you' would like to be, is a desire, and desire is the source of all suffering, as the fat bald fella likes to point out. So no wonder you are feeling low about it.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:49 / 29.11.05
I am ending it, ive basically had enough. I did a little divination via the I ching which helped me confirm my suspiscions 6 changing to 47 song,dispute,pleading/council, top yang changing to yin, kun,Confining Oppression.

Time to move on, no idea where yet, but its time to move and start facing a few internal issues that need to be delt with.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:55 / 29.11.05
Already fulfilled is mutual with Not Yet Fulfilled, Middle...the ending of any 'thing' is the beginning of a new cycle, ripe with possibility, leading inexorably to Qian and thus back through the entire sequence of the Gua.

You sound depressed...
 
 
illmatic
13:56 / 29.11.05
Well you could try asking the Yi what attitude will help you suceed in your next endeavour. I don't think there's anything wrong with having goals or being disappointed when you don't acheive them - just stay with your disappointment, and don't try and avoid it by gettng all angry, blaming them. When the time is right, move onto the next thing.
 
 
illmatic
13:57 / 29.11.05
Don't forget to read the changing line closely...
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
14:11 / 29.11.05
I'm with Captain Illmatic on this one...your changing line and the future Gua have the whole story...

"When a strong man meets with adversity, he remains cheerful despite all danger, and this cheerfulness is the source of later successes; it is that stability which is stronger than fate. He who lets his spirit be broken by exhaustion certainly has no success. But if adversity only bends a man, it creates in him a power to react that is bound in time to manifest itself. No inferior man is capable of this. Only the great man brings about good fortune and remains blameless".
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
14:22 / 29.11.05
they want to carry on employing me after i have proved what i am worth without giving me what i am worth.

This could be examined a bit, I think (without knowing a damned thing about you). Many people confuse value with cost, it's an easy mistake to make and one that regularly crops up in my line of work. Unfortunately, you are only worth what someone who requires what you do or make is prepared to pay for you or what you do. This is harsh, but its a fact of life. So many people assume that becuase "I've been doing this for a long time, I've paid my dues / this has cost me a fortune to achieve / make / provide" that it automatically is worth at least the same amount, if not more.

This is not the way it works, and a certain degree of humility (Mutual Gua of Sincerity, funny enough) is required in order to accept, and therby transcend the system, and become a more useful (worthy / valuable) player in the game at large.

Hey I don't make the rules. Hate the game, not the player.
 
 
Morgana
14:53 / 29.11.05
I guess the differences between Asian and Western thinking are making it difficult to grasp those concepts in their wholeness and realising them in everyday life.

We're usually needing some kind of acknowledgement to feel accepted - be it payment, a title, nice words or whatever. I think the Asian meaning of sincerity or righteousness, as e.g. Takuan uses the word, was more in terms of fitting in your place in life - whatever it is - as good as you possibly can.

As we don't grow up with those meanings, it's so much harder for us to follow Asian concepts. On the other hand, for the same reason there's so much we can learn by following them. For me it proved helpful to do this in small steps and not be disappointed if things don't turn out as I've expected them to. Usually, in the long run, they even turn out better!
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:04 / 29.11.05
Very true.

As we don't grow up with those meanings, it's so much harder for us to follow Asian concepts.

Mmmm..harder? Requiring a devotion of effort, perhaps. Is that hard? If you are sincere in your intent to understand, then I'd say not.

On the other hand, for the same reason there's so much we can learn by following them. For me it proved helpful to do this in small steps and not be disappointed if things don't turn out as I've expected them to. Usually, in the long run, they even turn out better!

Exactly. Expectation of a result weakens negotiation, and when are we not negotiating with this or that or the other? Funny enough, it's when we don't harbour desires, and simply accept what is...easy, if you are, as Castaneda might put it, impeccable, a quality I find to be analogous to much of Taoist thought regarding sincerity, humility and not-doing.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:24 / 29.11.05
Ive done the blaming anger crying sulking bit, it got something out of me, but i am hugely dissappointed, i was trying to deal with the system on its own terms, be honest with it, and i feel like ive been slapped in the face, i was trying to give back to it, i should really stop personifying the system, i just need to collect my thoughts and learn to smile again, a good nights sleep will sort it out, sorry for rotting the thread.
 
 
Morgana
15:36 / 29.11.05
Mmmm..harder? Requiring a devotion of effort, perhaps. Is that hard? If you are sincere in your intent to understand, then I'd say not.

In my experience, understanding them is the first obstacle - and following them the second one. Of course it's all a question of effort - but people usually don't put much effort in things the value of which they don't understand, so here's a vicious circle.

And even if you do understand and try to follow them, it's often hard to fit spiritual practice into everyday life. Starting with the fact that most people, including so-called magicians, don't understand at all what you're doing there - which leads us back to the first problem *lol*

But in the end, I guess that's a problem of every spiritual path, be it Western or Eastern.
 
 
illmatic
16:08 / 29.11.05
I don't necessairily disagree with you Morgana, and I certainly think it's importnat to be aware of cross-cultural issues, but with the case in point - I Ching - I've always found the concepts expressed easy to understand, if not always easy to act upon!

Middle: Don't be too upset. Getting a proper job is a bitch these days, since the whole temping culture came in. Keep batting and you'll get there eventually.
 
 
harmonic series
07:17 / 31.12.05
Sincerity. Well, I'm not going to give specific advice, but I will offer to you my experience-cultivated definition.

Sincerity occurs when, and only when, thought and action (and speech) reflect each other perfectly. This means, very simply, one must make an action which serves the intention wholly; the intention comes from the pure thought. The pure thought is a thought cultivated from the root of the psyche. The root of the psyche is developed and matured through thought and meditation. I put speech in parenthesis because speech is but a middle-way from thought to action or action to thought.

For those of you who feel that it is best to serve your self interests and thus question this definiton morally, the answer is:

It is easiest and always the most successful to act in accordance with your thoughts and intentions. Ideally the desires of your subconscious, with concentration and exploration, will become that of your consciousness. The subconscious and conscious, if truly explored, will be found to desire only the best possible outcomes of situations. To not act with pure intention is a waste. It would be like desiring a banana and instead acquiring banana pudding when both options are available. It's a waste of time and will always have an unpredictable outcome.

Basically, you'll get what will make you happy without hurting anybody else if your pure intentions match your actions, and vice versa, and that is 'sincerity'.

Integrity (as mentioned above) is when your expression to others matches your pure intentions and past/present/future actions. If integrity is present in you, then others may develop and act with their pure intentions in relation to you.

Does that help at all? As far as the I Ching goes, I presently have no idea, except to say that I am aware of the practice of meditating on hexagrams for personal understanding, so that might be a useful exercise.

Best wishes.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:42 / 07.02.06
I am perplexed by the question of how sincerity and integrity fair in the face of impermanent conditions, impermanent personality and values. Does sincerity or integrity require the acknowledgement of a core essential self with core values, ie permanent self value structures.

Do these values require that a notion of the eternal self, ie god, or the psychological social individual be present.

Once the impermanence of all things is experienced, in my case through near death experience, doesnt integrity like sincerity and much of life become valued as transitory at best, values themselves are not worth grasping at or attaching too, as nothing is eternal, nothing remains.

While life is to be lived and experienced fully while it is there, why attach to certain values or personality structures as permanent, i think this is to hide from impermanence, to reinforce a sense of self that doesnt exsist, as opposed to a sense of awareness that requires no construction. Holding onto values or behaviours then becomes away of not facing change, death and impermanence.

Reinforce the value or personality to the point where it becomes a comfort zone, like adopting belief systems, ready made constructs to lay the write coloured carpets in the mind, no work is required, no experimentation, just playing with other peoples conceptual toys.

Why cling to any sense of self at all, none of it ever remains, all values in that sense are valueless, yet they have value for the time it takes to employ them within, does consistent display of certain values create integrity or any other value, are values then just reinforced habitual complexes. I think so.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:19 / 07.02.06
So : You are saying, in a roundabout way, that the quotations in the opening post, from all the spiritual traditions regarding this pillar of awakened consciousness, from which you derive all of your notions of impermanence, and no-mind, are essentially missing something, which you are not. Yes?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:58 / 07.02.06
That doesn't really help, nor respond very well to your post. No time to respond properly, may have time later...
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:57 / 08.02.06
I have been reading a book called buddhist psychology by caroline brazier, she presents an idea for the psychology of non self, presenting self as a defence mechanism from direct experience, what i am getting at is, wether values be percieved as relatively good or bad, to subscribe to a certain self that subscribes to a certain sense of values wether percieved as socially good or bad values can actually act as a defence mechanism against the impermanent nature of feelings and phenomena. Attaching to a code or certain social roles is an attempt to create a more solid persona, to provide an eternal presence in the face of a constantly shifting social/personal arena, values act as a cushion or wall as can religous/spiritual structures.

In this sense some internal structures can act as prisons, in fact what i think the author of the book is driving at is that self is a prison, any permanent social self or personal self acts as a boundary, a habitually reinforced construct to close off areas of discomfort and impermanence in being.

In this sense identifying as a sincere or insincere person acts as a boundary to direct experience, to self identify or to reinforce self through expected behaviour to either value structure is to limit consciousness in form, to set limitation on self by having one.

I am struggling with the idea of teaching my self the psychology of non self.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:06 / 08.02.06
Haha! In every sense the books you read are not going to help you much!
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:50 / 08.02.06
Its not nessecarily the book itself but the feeling of reading it and the spirit the author puts into it, in this case an attempt by a practicing psychotherapist and pureland/zen buddhist to produce a system of psychology that employs the most effective points of buddhist sutra and the story of buddah.

Jnana yoga is as valid a component when employed with the other forms of yoga, I used to dis book learning, not recognising that a relationship with a text, is a relationship with all the subsequant conditions that have gone into producing that text, each human being that has scribed the knowledge, taken the rememberence upon themselves, each civilisation that has passed through.

The point is not to deny self or to indulge self, but to present a view point that sees how self through identification may become limiting. To recognise that self is impermanent and so are the values and habits of self reinforcement.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:10 / 08.02.06
Ill give you an example of my practice at present, i light 5 tea lights in a five sectioned glass bowl on a daily basis, each one represents one of the five senses, as i light each candle i repeat compassion, loving kindness, emptiness and impermanence in name of sense.

I finally light some spiralled quan yin incence which sits on a cobra like incense holder, the spiral becomes the coils. i identify this as spirit/mind and repeat compassion, loving kindness, emptiness and impermanence in spirit.

I see the four elements of what i am saying as inextricably bound that each word is all of the words.

Its a simple practice but reminds me that all my sense phenomena are impermanent, all mental phenomena impermanent.

That the impermanence of things is compassion, that the emptiness of things is loving kindness, or vice a versa.

I also see that this practice is impermanent. The sense of impermanence seems to me to be a strong bone of contention in essentialist traditions, a fear of death, death cant be seen as compassionate release, or a kindness given to those suffering.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:21 / 08.02.06
If you re-read the thread, THI/US, about half way down we did reach the tentative conclusion that intending the cultivation of sincerity was doomed to failure since its presence seems to be the absence of intention - predicated on ego with its prejudices and arbitrary judgements, wrapped inevitably in a pleasure movement. We arrived, irrevocably, back at wu wei, which again, as you point out, is not a concept to be enshrined and worshipped, but a way of being.

Sincerity, by these terms, being the total absence, without longing, of that pleasure movement, and whatever expresses out of that absence.

This relates directly to your conundrum in attempting 'to learn the psychology of no-mind', which is a phrase any zen master worth their weight in lotus petals would actually knock you out with a large stick for employing.

To clarify that - an attempt, originating from a desire expressend through the mind, to learn, using the mind, a system of philosophy/science about the mind, which aims to demonstrate that there is no mind - could be very easily argued to be rather pointless, tautological and doomed to suffocate itself deliberately in its own terms of reference.

As my favourite old grouchy buddha would have it, mind is not the instrument which can help you, but you have no other instrument.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:22 / 09.02.06
Yeah i agree.

I think what shes is doing is trying to use no self ideas to address people in distress with there ideas of self, so rather than changing ideas of self or adding more positive self expressions to people in distress, she is rather attempting to reduce distressed people reliance on actually having a sense of self at all.

This is where i think impermanence is an important factor, learning to see that qualities arent essences, for example someone who identifies as an addict can actually reinforce that behaviour through constant identification with the label. The idea that conditions are dependent and transitory rather than fixed values can allow an addict to treat an addiction and then move on from that self definition, ie break the self defining behaviours and identity and re establish a more desirable and healthy social illusion, rather than being consistently stuck in what they may see to be the essence of themselves.

I think sincerity at a level of personality could actually become an obstacle especially if a self notion of sincerity is based on distorted self image.

I agree with the wuwei comments, yet at present seem to be trying to find a more practical worldly approach for the spiritual practices i have learnt, id like to be able help people in some way.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:38 / 09.02.06
Impermanence
-- Thich Nhat Hanh

Nothing remains the same for two consecutive moments. Heraclitus said we can never bathe twice in the same river. Confucius, while looking at a stream, said, "It is always flowing, day and night." The Buddha implored us not just to talk about impermanence, but to use it as an instrument to help us penetrate deeply into reality and obtain liberating insight. We may be tempted to say that because things are impermanent, there is suffering. But the Buddha encouraged us to look again. Without impermanence, life is not possible. How can we transform our suffering if things are not impermanent? How can our daughter grow up into a beautiful young lady? How can the situation in the world improve? We need impermanence for social justice and for hope.

If you suffer, it is not because things are impermanent. It is because you believe things are permanent. When a flower dies, you don't suffer much, because you understand that flowers are impermanent. But you cannot accept the impermanence of your beloved one, and you suffer deeply when she passes away.

If you look deeply into impermanence, you will do your best to make her happy right now. Aware of impermanence, you become positive, loving and wise. Impermanence is good news. Without impermanence, nothing would be possible. With impermanence, every door is open for change. Impermanence is an instrument for our liberation.
 
  
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