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Do you think it's okay to kill god?

  
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
17:43 / 30.11.01
If so why? If not why? And if so how would you do it?
 
 
The Dadaist
22:22 / 30.11.01
Kill the bastard!!!!
 
 
Gypsy Christ
23:42 / 30.11.01
hmm..becuse the basterd owes me money?

umm i'd do it with a pink fish and a cookie..hehe
 
 
01
00:23 / 01.12.01
If you see the Bhudda on the road, you must kill the Bhudda.
 
 
Papess
01:07 / 01.12.01
Buddha is a referal 2 a state of mind. Please don't kill Buddhas!
  
 
SMS
01:28 / 01.12.01
quote:Originally posted by The Redcap's futility.:
If so why? If not why? And if so how would you do it?

my god can't die. but i really think it depends on what god you're talking about. even if you were to restrict it to "the christian god," i see people worshiping completely different conceptions of him. if you say your killing god, and your killing a god that preaches violence and hatred, then by all means, go ahead. how? the obvious answer, preach love and compassion, might get you nailed to a tree, but give it a go.
 
 
Seth
03:57 / 01.12.01
I think the reverse of this question is potentially much more interesting.

We first need to start with "is it possible to kill god," as SMatt suggests. There's at least one major world religion in which killing god was the defining event that shaped its formation (if you listen to what they say about their beliefs, that is).
 
 
Rev. Wright
07:54 / 01.12.01
The concept of 'killing God '(I presume you refer to the Catholic version of God)could be seen as rather fundemental to the post 20th century experience.
This is not some fantasy idea as expressed in the glorious pages of Garth Ennis's Preacher, but rather the metaphorical idea of a lessening of the power of religion.
Obviously religion had its initial 'well meant' uses, but now it can be seen as a forum for 'well meant intention' to 'fundemetal murderous attitudes'.
Now this could be perceived as a rather off the cuff statement, but In defining a world without the excuse not to 'take responsibility for ones actions', religion must be explored as a reason why this happens.
In my personal history I have explored deity worship and performed my own, but it still comes back to me that it is I and I alone that has true destiny over my behaviour. I can chose whether to acknowledge and rectify my actions as a result of the outcome, or not. I can walk a path with my experiences as a guide to my journey, and establish my own behaviour. (yeah now demonstrate it you fool)
Obviously it is somewhat 'simpler' to have a moral tightrope extended before one, but it makes little sense if these guidelines are impossible to adhere to, or that it is human nature to discover ones own moral plain.
It is simple to attack religious 'moral hipocrisy' with its display of confusion an everyday occurance.
Can religion be used as a focus of true unity across racial and cultural divides?
I will probably have cause to, at times, regret what I have just typed, but it is a personal honest reaction to this thread. It is by no means watertight in its generalisations, and I appreciate the fact that there are many religious forms all with their true 'gods', and that the 'scripture' can be allowed a personal inflection.
But can the human race exist outside of the use of deity led religious forms?
Can God(c) be killed, or will man fall as a result?

[ 01-12-2001: Message edited by: William Wright ]
 
 
Logos
22:35 / 01.12.01
God is dead.-Nietzsche
Nietzsche is dead.-God
 
 
Dr. Vital
02:41 / 02.12.01
I think that killing God is mandatory to genuine spiritual growth.

It's those first hesitant steps into heresy against your own beliefs that start you down the path to enlightenment.

God created his own son so that his murder could become the basis for the next step in his own gnostic transition!

Can we, who were created in his image, be expected to do anything less then return the favor?
 
 
Seth
04:50 / 04.12.01
quote:Originally posted by William Wright:
I will probably have cause to, at times, regret what I have just typed, but it is a personal honest reaction to this thread.

Nah, mate: what you wrote was cool, and worthy of a better response from someone who isn't just trying to delay that whole "going to work" thing. I'll reply this evening.

quote:Originally posted by Dr. Vital:
I think that killing God is mandatory to genuine spiritual growth.

It's those first hesitant steps into heresy against your own beliefs that start you down the path to enlightenment.

I agree with the heart of what you're trying to say (which seems to be something like "the first step on the path to spiritual growth is to alter your perceptions and enlarge your understanding, even if it's at the cost of some long held beliefs." Hopefull that's a process we'll all continue with throughout our lives). It is very possible to do this while keeping intact the idea that there is a God, however, and some would simply term it as geting to know Him better. If this roughly what you intended to say, I'm interested in why you've used the above language in order to express your meaning.

quote:Originally posted by Dr. Vital:
God created his own son so that his murder could become the basis for the next step in his own gnostic transition!

Can we, who were created in his image, be expected to do anything less then return the favor?

There's a very good case for that. However, to truly work in His image would be to create our own means of self alteration through taking on some kind of avatar or fictionsuit (see one of my posts in the Fictionsuit thread), rather than miss the point and go deicidal.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
08:04 / 04.12.01
Originally posted by May Tricks

"Buddha is a referal 2 a state of mind. Please don't kill Buddhas!"

But is the state of mind not meant to be divine? I think Zerone was referring to a samurai tenet, which went along the lines of Bhuddha reaching his state of perfection and thus should be released from his mortal coil. They thought he'd be doing him a favour. Of course there was a number of friendly fire decapitations, mistaken for Bhuddhas, that kind of thing, all very messy. I may be wrong about this however.

Originally posted by SMatthewStolte

"my god can't die. but i really think it depends on what god you're talking about. even if you were to restrict it to "the christian god," i see people worshiping completely different conceptions of him. if you say your killing god, and your killing a god that preaches violence and hatred, then by all means, go ahead. how? the obvious answer, preach love and compassion, might get you nailed to a tree, but give it a go."

I wasn't restricting this to the Christian god, so I probably should have phrased the question better. Though to me the God of the book would be a very confused individual receiving a lot of mixed messages. Perhaps it would be putting him out of his misery? Though I must admit I'm not a proponent of the God of the Book being responsible for all the evil in the world.

I think possibly a better question might have been, what would the effects be if we did kill god? But then I'm not that sure what my definition of killing god would be. I had no set ideas when I asked this question you see.

Originally posted by William Wright

"Now this could be perceived as a rather off the cuff statement, but In defining a world without the excuse not to 'take responsibility for ones actions', religion must be explored as a reason why this happens.
In my personal history I have explored deity worship and performed my own, but it still comes back to me that it is I and I alone that has true destiny over my behaviour. I can chose whether to acknowledge and rectify my actions as a result of the outcome, or not. I can walk a path with my experiences as a guide to my journey, and establish my own behaviour. (yeah now demonstrate it you fool)"

I take your point but if we didn't blame God we'd find someone else to blame god. Unless you feel a very public murder would shock us into accepting responsibility for ourselves.

Originally posted by William Wright

"Can religion be used as a focus of true unity across racial and cultural divides?"

Yes as long as you accept my god in my version of him/her/it. I do think metanarritives could be used for this unfortunatly they've all failed us so far. Does this make god redundant? Is unity what god/religion is for? Or is it just to help us through the confusing times? And is a personalised spirtual/moral path not isolating? Working against unity?

Originally posted by William Wright

"Can God(c) be killed, or will man fall as a result?"

Good question. Anyone?

Dr. Vital, good points, an interesting and valid interpretation. I'm afraid I don't have any comments on it.

Originally posted by Expressionless

"I agree with the heart of what you're trying to say (which seems to be something like "the first step on the path to spiritual growth is to alter your perceptions and enlarge your understanding, even if it's at the cost of some long held beliefs." Hopefull that's a process we'll all continue with throughout our lives). It is very possible to do this while keeping intact the idea that there is a God, however, and some would simply term it as geting to know Him better. If this roughly what you intended to say, I'm interested in why you've used the above language in order to express your meaning."

There appears to me in organised religion to be a stasis which obviously was not present at their inception. Perhaps killing god would shake people from this stasis, force them to re-evaluate a great many things. Surely it's following in God's path. Or am I thinking of hannibal Lector.
 
 
penitentvandal
08:04 / 04.12.01
Yes. In self-defense.

But let's imagine this legally: let's say the Redcap - hereinafter referred to as the defendant - actually has killed God. Can he be legally tried for murder?

Oh fuck it, let's say he can. Regina v. The Redcap's futility, in the matter of the murder of one God, aka Jehovah, Allah, Brahman, etc., Judge Velvetvandal presiding...

Right, who wants to prosecute him?

[ 04-12-2001: Message edited by: velvetvandal ]
 
 
Rev. Wright
08:04 / 04.12.01
quote:I take your point but if we didn't blame God we'd find someone else to blame god. Unless you feel a very public murder would shock us into accepting responsibility for ourselves.
I would rather have people attempting to blame other shaved monkeys, rather than some all powerful deity. I believe it is our (human) limitations that eventually humble us.

quote: Yes as long as you accept my god in my version of him/her/it. I do think metanarritives could be used for this unfortunatly they've all failed us so far. Does this make god redundant? Is unity what god/religion is for? Or is it just to help us through the confusing times? And is a personalised spirtual/moral path not isolating? Working against unity?
Unity is the fact that we all breathe, have pulses and are crap. I would love to hold tight the idea off racial bonding through religion, but it is expressed everyday through the media the murderous inhumane actions taken in the name of a God(c). I say religion has failed us, to empart some understanding of the view behind the veil. In my studying of Shamanic systems, it appears racial groups travelled further and had more interaction (Vikings in China?)than can be seen to have occured through the use of monotheisic religion. (lining yourself up to be shot Will. Aye but by a fellow shaved monkey rather than a divine lightening bolt)
In your reply you actually denounce the use of religion to unify, by the fact it has not worked so far. Hey, I can't wait no longer, its been thousands of year, I say lets scrap it.
quote: "Can God(c) be killed, or will man fall as a result?"

Good question. Anyone?

God(c) can be killed through understanding. If one looks at the most likely origin of a pantheon of deities, one finds that they are a development of psychology. Man (shaved monkey) coming to terms with hir mind, through the external dialogue of deities. Deity narratives appear to be a combination of fable/metaphor and recorded astronomy/celestial calender. With this in mind I find that religion was originally a way of getting this useful life information to a larger population, as civilisation first grew.
'Here you go, here's a way of understanding what the noggin does, and what to expect its reactions to be to certain stimuli. Oh I've also included the notes regarding fuck off huge celestial bodies, because their energy seems to affect the way we operate'

I don't see this as radical, but merely a more earthed/realist view of religion and its use. A much more humble appreciation of fairytales, and mythology.
 
 
Hush
10:11 / 04.12.01
Here is a little song I teach my children for easter, it goes to the tune of 'Brown Girl In A Ring'

'Dead God in a tree
Traa lalalaaaa'
*3

then

'He'll be back Again'

I think it explains a christian view of easter well, with no Disney overlay.
 
 
Little Mother
12:22 / 04.12.01
Why do we have to go with the christian idea of god? There are lots of different conceptions some of which haven't done a huge amount of harm to anyone. Or do we mean kill the concept generally, which I suspect may be easier said than done.
Oh and are we killing goddesses too while we're at it?
 
 
Ierne
12:56 / 04.12.01
The thing with many deities is that they do tend to die and come back. Osiris, Dionysos, Odin, Ishtar & Tammuz...because life and death cycle into each other so closely, it wouldn't make sense to have a deity just die. Some aspect of the deity always comes back, even if in a changed or mutated form.
 
 
Bear
13:16 / 04.12.01
Redcap, why did you ask anyway if you don't mind me asking, maybe you've got a problem with relegion? is so .......

Black Mass
 
 
Rev. Wright
16:27 / 04.12.01
quote: Why do we have to go with the christian idea of god? There are lots of different conceptions some of which haven't done a huge amount of harm to anyone. Or do we mean kill the concept generally, which I suspect may be easier said than done.
Oh and are we killing goddesses too while we're at it?
It is not so much the killing of deities, God(c) included, but more the realisation that they are external dialogue concepts regarding the human condition. Sure the conecept of individual deities have gain some empowerment through devotion, and become accessable in the collective consciousness, but this does not mean that there are a set of humanoid immortals that control or dictate how humans exist.
If one starts to peel back the layers of the development of deities, one can find much more earthly related concepts worth devotion. To externalise fate and destiny into the hands of God/s or Goddesses merely dislocates ones personal intent and responsiblity for ones actions.
Obviously this is not as straight forward as it seems, variously due to the useful philisophical and occult knowledge bound up in the deity archetypes. I say unravel these concepts and follow the native Shaman route of developing ones own self and centering it on an awareness of ones actions.
It is amazing how liberating it can be to see the world populated by people as falible as oneself. It is from this that compassion, understanding and love can be achieved.
quote: The thing with many deities is that they do tend to die and come back. Osiris, Dionysos, Odin, Ishtar & Tammuz...because life and death cycle into each other so closely, it wouldn't make sense to have a deity just die. Some aspect of the deity always comes back, even if in a changed or mutated form.
Is it in fact due to the fact that deities are ideas, and ideas have a tendency to come back, mutated and changed?

[ 04-12-2001: Message edited by: William Wright ]

[ 04-12-2001: Message edited by: William Wright ]
 
 
Ierne
16:32 / 04.12.01
...Is it in fact due to the fact that deities are ideas, and ideas have a tendency to come back, mutated and changed? – William Wright

I think so.

I see them as filters by which one can access & work with certain types of energy. (Note that energy can be neither created nor destroyed, only transformed.)

[ 04-12-2001: Message edited by: Ierne ]
 
 
01
00:44 / 05.12.01
If you see the bhudda in your living room watching TV, eating pretzles, you must kill the bhuddda.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
01:08 / 05.12.01
No dude, you watch 'The Crocodile Hunter' with him then you switch to QVC and dare him to bid on the really ugly stuff for sale.

"Hello, this is the Buddha. I would like to buy item #456, the wide gold bracelet with the face of Elvis on it. It is most righteous."
 
 
nowonmai
09:54 / 06.12.01
rebellion?

whats the deal here? if yr into pluralsim why refer to god not gods? if yr solipsistic why not be yr own god? if yr into chaos, the world is yr bitch to do with as you please (according to hype).

somrething doesnt scan in this topic. too much said already if theres no ax to grind
 
 
Dr. Vital
09:54 / 06.12.01
nowonmai sez:
quote:too much said already if theres no ax to grind

Sez You! And who the hell are you anyway?

It's a great thread, the sound of all that axe grinding aside...

expressionless sez:
quote:I'm interested in why you've used the above language in order to express your meaning.

I think that most of the people of value that I've met have all gone through the experience of becoming a heretic to their own beliefs. It's a big step towards adulthood.

Little_Mother sez:

quote: Why do we have to go with the christian idea of god? There are lots of different conceptions some of which haven't done a huge amount of harm to anyone.

I think that the christian god is a great one to start with. Especially here in the US we are to believe that he is omnipotent and powerfull, whether we believe in him or not.

When I needed to break free I started challenging the big G in public. "Here am I God! If you're so fucking all powerful take me now you big fake!"

People will react, but so far I'm still here to type this!
  
 
nowonmai
10:32 / 06.12.01
im not defending god. or the idea of god. just pointing out that some people on the thread are seem to care too much about the idea and are resisting. makes me want to know why.

also uncomfortable feeling from some like your obeserving others as mindless if they disagree. didn't like that attitude from 5% islam, dont like it here. cant see a difference. jut all elitist to me

(named one cult as there beliefs divide world populaiton into 5% enlightened, 15% manipulators, 80% mindless slave-sheep. many beliefs and religions are guilty, this maks good illustration as theyre so mathemastical about it)
 
 
deja_vroom
13:35 / 06.12.01
It's an act of christian charity, for His sake!

I'd probably give him something intravenous so he could go without pain, while asleep.

[ 06-12-2001: Message edited by: Impostor de Jade ]
 
 
Rev. Wright
13:48 / 06.12.01
Can you clarify your point here, it's not making a lot of sense? I would love to comment but I don't understand your last posting.
 
 
Rev. Wright
13:56 / 06.12.01
I think I got your point about 'elitist', that there is maybe no other point.
I should like to state that this no other point is the one where people get killed on a daily basis over 'religion', 'god'. This to me appears rather hipocritical in some instances and ignorant in others. For thousands of years human kind has lived with gods, look how it has been. Look.
This 'elitist stance' is relatively new in history and seen as a 'minority' opinion. The apparent 'elitism' may result from the fact that 'god/gods/goddesses' are not making sense in a literal translation, and in fact that many scholars and spiritual folk are denouncing ideas and beliefs, to gain some sort of evolution.
If God/etc made me in some image then why choose a shaved monkey? Just coz I've got opposable thumbs does not mean that evolution stops here.
may I suggest that you take on board Leary Theory, Phil Kine and Peter J Carrol. They may be of assistance in understanding this 'elitism'.

[ 06-12-2001: Message edited by: William Wright ]

[ 06-12-2001: Message edited by: William Wright ]
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
06:56 / 07.12.01
Velvetvandal I'd be up for that, mind you I think Barbelith should have a trial in general, be fun. But I'd like defense as well.

Originally posted by William Wright
"I would rather have people attempting to blame other shaved monkeys, rather than some all powerful deity. I believe it is our (human) limitations that eventually humble us."

Fine but do that many people actually blame god any more? Yet people are always happy to blame someone or something else, make excuses if you will.

Originally posted by William Wright

"In my studying of Shamanic systems, it appears racial groups travelled further and had more interaction (Vikings in China?)than can be seen to have occured through the use of monotheisic religion. (lining yourself up to be shot Will. Aye but by a fellow shaved monkey rather than a divine lightening bolt)"

Okay now I'll line myself up to be shot. Aren't the various shamanic practices just as much religions as monotheisic religions? Couldn't my question apply to gods spirits of shamanic religions? Or is it just monothesic religions that are bad? Which would be unfortunate as I quite like the Hindu religion.

Originally posted by William Wright

"In your reply you actually denounce the use of religion to unify, by the fact it has not worked so far. Hey, I can't wait no longer, its been thousands of year, I say lets scrap it."

Yes but suggest that a metanarritive of another type may take it's place. Post modernism suggested the universe as a metanarrative, anybody any other ideas?

Originally posted by Little Mother

"Why do we have to go with the christian idea of god? There are lots of different conceptions some of which haven't done a huge amount of harm to anyone. Or do we mean kill the concept generally, which I suspect may be easier said than done.
Oh and are we killing goddesses too while we're at it? "

Yep we're after everyone I'm afraid. it is the concept, not just the Christian god.

Originally posted by Ierne

"The thing with many deities is that they do tend to die and come back. Osiris, Dionysos, Odin, Ishtar & Tammuz...because life and death cycle into each other so closely, it wouldn't make sense to have a deity just die. Some aspect of the deity always comes back, even if in a changed or mutated form. "

That's a good point. Would killing god just further propagate the concept with a rebirth, perhaps coming back stronger?

Originally posted by KaosBear

"Redcap, why did you ask anyway if you don't mind me asking, maybe you've got a problem with relegion? is so ......."

Not at all, no axe to grind. Organised religion is often (especially in forums like this) made out to be the enemy, I use to be quite anti-christian but I'm not anymore. Organised religion has done things both good and bad because they are human organisations. So nothing against any religions, I'm pro-spiritual. It's an abstract question not a woh dude praise the devil kinda thing. (It's more to do with me being a media junkie than my feelings on religion.)

Originally posted by nowonmai

"im not defending god. or the idea of god. just pointing out that some people on the thread are seem to care too much about the idea and are resisting. makes me want to know why."

What idea do you think we'r resisting?

Originally posted by nowonmai

"also uncomfortable feeling from some like your obeserving others as mindless if they disagree. didn't like that attitude from 5% islam, dont like it here. cant see a difference. jut all elitist to me"

Not my intention, I don't see that in anybody elses posts, could you show us an example of where you think this has happened.
 
 
Rev. Wright
15:25 / 07.12.01
In reply to the last posting.

The blaming of God(c)/Gods/etc is mentioned as not occuring in recent times. I disagree on this on several counts;
a. This maybe the case in most modern western societies, but can this be said of other countries and societies? I think not.
b. Much of our ceremony and law systems stem from Roman Catholic bible texts. It is in this tradition that many institutions exist and legislation is worked upon.
c. Check your insurance policy for 'act of god'

There is often a mistake made regarding religions and shamanism/medicine folk. I made some quick reference to Kenneth Meadows and Peter J Carrol, with regards to this subject, my thinking was confirmed. The sprirituality that these people practiced was prior to the introduction of god archetypes, their spirit world was populated by spirits and entities. I suspect that religion was formed from the medicine lore, when populations increased beyond the comfortable communities inwhich they worked.
Much of the medicine lore refers heavily to the spirit of animals and celestial bodies.
The transference of power to deities is put down in most traditions, Meadows own medicine wheel culminates on the practioners ability to 'take responsibility of ones own actions'
Our common understanding of deity religions are fueled by priests, not wounded healers and astral travellers, who were the original mediators for the whole village with the spirit realm.

Voodoo is an interesting point where Afrtcan medicine lore meets Christianity through the old slave trade period. It may hold many keys to this debate.

My last comment question about denouncing deity led religion and metanarrative was a little confusing. I will clarify this matter by acussing religion of the crime rather than any metanarritive.
I sure as well know that story telling is older than religion, and in some ways a holder of more truisms than religious myth.

My killing is not necessarily just with the the deities, but also their trapping of dogma and scripture.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:01 / 07.12.01
"Is it okay to kill God?"

Of course not. Don't be a bloody idiot. It's either a triumph or a disaster, whether God is internal of external; it's a major cosmological upheaval. If it's internal, you better know exactly what you mean by it and what you expect to happen, or you could do yourself some major damage. If it's external, you could rip the universe apart, or at the very least mess stuff up.

"Okay" is mediocre. Nothing about killing God is moderate, is it?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:17 / 07.12.01
Not being funny or anything, but isn't all this a bit like the bloke who wanted to blow up the universe with a sigil that time?
 
 
Dao Jones
12:54 / 08.12.01
Yes. Or the one who was going to turn the whole world into a prune so that the universe would experience a kind of 5th dimensional bowel movement and make us all into beings of pure energy.

Before your time, I think, that one.
 
  
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