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Dao de jing

Unconditional Love

13:14 / 10.08.05

First off, id like to decide on a translation to use, or a few for comparrison. I am thinking Aleister crowleys translation as i am not familiar with it and perhaps thelemites in the temple could expand my understanding of his writings.

There are 81 verses to chose from and i dont wish to approach them linearly, but it would be nice to get feedback about one verse at a time.

Id like to start with this>

Chapter 2, part 2.

2. So also existence and non-existence pose the one the other;((I.e., the
thought of either implies its opposite.)) so also is it with ease and
difficulty, length and shortness; height and lowness. Also Musick exists
through harmony of opposites;((nay, even.
This shows how the Tao realizes itself through its projection in
correlative phases, expressing 0 as + 1 + (-1); to speak like a Qabalist
or an electrician.)) time and space depend upon contraposition.

Crowley translation

13:03 / 12.08.05

Great article, wolfangel. Interesting how what is also known as the 'Tao te Ching' is translated here as 'Tao teh KING'...

21:57 / 30.03.06

I have been a student of the Tao for about 10 years now and feel as though I am only beginning to get the jist.

I started with Steven Mitchell's 'A new English Version' which I like very much for its ease and flow. It is very simple, which may be why my Taoist Master laughed when I told him that I was using it. It is pretty, but it is not the Tao.

- The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao; the Name that can be named is not the real Name -

fair enough, it is a good intro. not a truley deep translation, however.

I kind of see it as trying to take Shakespeare's subtlty and moderinizing it while converting it to japanese, your bound to lose some of the essence.

I really respect Crowley and see Taoist themes in lots of his writing but his translation is unbearable. It just so annotated and dry and stiff. It dosen't work for me. (too bad for me).

any other thoughts on the Tao out there?

22:03 / 30.03.06

Here is 2;2 from Mitchell

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

21:15 / 31.03.06

My currently favored translation is:

Tao Te Ching (an authentic Taoist translation), by Taoist Master John Bright-Fey

I find it very accessable and deep.

Absolve yourself of the need or desireto be wise and sophisticated
cast off reliance on the frozen thought forms and constructs
that support domesticated behavior
and all life that you meet will benefit exponentially

give up
sham beneficence
false order
civilized equity
and enjoy the true fallibility fo the bodymind

23:07 / 31.03.06

If you're interested in accuracy in the translation, D.C. Lau's is excellent. Richard Lynn's edition (which includes a translation of a third-century commentary as well) is also great.

The Crowley one takes a lot of liberties... not necessarily bad, but not really the Dao De Jing either. His take on chapter 6, for example:

1. The Teh is the immortal enemy of the Tao, its feminine aspect. Heaven
and Earth issued from her Gate; this Gate is the Root of their World-
Sycamore. Its operation is of pure Joy and Love, and faileth never.

02:22 / 01.04.06

I started with Steven Mitchell's 'A new English Version' which I like very much for its ease and flow.

I've just started getting deeper into Taoism and have the same translation. I bought it because it seemed really clear and to the point when I read a bit of it online, and when I went into a bookshop to see what was in there, it was the only book on Taoism I could find, so I was pretty chuffed. It seems really good to me, but the reason for that will surely be that I'm pretty new to it. I used this one for a long time, after getting it printed out and used it for quite a while, (does that seem any good to you?) but now that I'm trying to focus a lot more on Taoism I thought I'd try another, and bought the Steven Mitchell one. It seems clearer than the one I just linked to aswell. As time goes on though, I'm sure that anyone seriously trying to learn/practise will collect quite a few translations.

What problems do you see with the Steven Mitchell one though, after studying/practising Taoism for 10 years? I guess you can now see a lot of flaws in certain translations, but how do you work out what's good from what's not? The only thing I could think of doing myself was maybe trying to learn Chinese and translate it myself at somepoint in the future, but it would obviously take a long time before I could do anything like that.

Also, is one of the problems that arises due to some Chinese characters being used for so many different things? I suppose if that's the case, then maybe it's a big reason why so many versions differ so much. Something like that would probably make learning Chinese not too much of a help if you don't know Taoism very well either.......you'd be adding what you thought the right characters where and missing the point...

As for the Crowley one, after having a look at some of it I can't see myself using it at any point. It seems like he's added too much of his own philosophy into it, and some of it seems really off from anything else I've read. It looks way too overcomplicated aswell.

03:53 / 01.04.06

"What problems do you see with the Steven Mitchell one"

No real problems per se - its just 'light'.
The Bright Fey translation is much more full and deep and wordy.

As for learing chinese, I encourage you. However the language has changed alot from Lao Tsu's day and age. And The Tao teh Jing was written in a formal style which introduces a new level of complication.

hope that helps.......

00:50 / 09.04.06

No real problems per se - its just 'light'.

Thanks, I finished reading through it a few days ago, and even thought it was maybe light, it still worked really well, being a beginner here and all. I'll probably stick with it for the time being and then get another translation and see how that works for me.

As for learing chinese, I encourage you. However the language has changed alot from Lao Tsu's day and age. And The Tao teh Jing was written in a formal style which introduces a new level of complication.

Ack, that does sound complicated, and I can see a little more why there's so many different versions of it now. I'll still give learning the language a go though, and hopefully learn about the formal style aswell. It'll be hard, but it should easily be worth it.